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Seari

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Pathfinder: Wrath
But, but multiclassing isn't balanced! :O
 
Weasel
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Obsidian never said it was going to play like an IE game. Saying they were going to use their own rules from day one was proof of that. All those Josh-quotes I posted before the Kickstarter ended where he talked about D&D being garbage was also proof.

Sure, most of us here read all the quotes about Sawyer hating D&D and the discussions on these threads and probably suspected that Sawyer would end up producing something as different as he thought he could get away with. But an average person checking out the kickstarter and reading the following quote would, I suggest, expect a game that plays "like an IE game":

Obsidian asking for money said:
Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Sure, most of us here read all the quotes about Sawyer hating D&D and the discussions on these threads and probably suspected that Sawyer would end up producing something as different as he thought he could get away with. But an average person checking out the kickstarter and reading the following quote would, I suggest, expect a game that plays "like an IE game":

Obsidian asking for money said:
Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

The only thing related to gameplay in that statement is "combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale" and from what I've seen and heard, it is closest to that, with soft counters replacing that instant-win and extreme save-or-die nonsense.
 

Bester

⚰️☠️⚱️
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Oh yeah, sorry Anthony Davis, I forgot to tell you about roshan. :lol: But I don't think he posts on your forums.
Maybe start by telling him about yourself instead. Common courtesy is to let the guy know you a little better if you're gonna be following his posterior around with your tongue out.
 

Shevek

Arcane
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Sure, the differences between classes like fighter/ranger/barbarian do seem to be more pronounced in PoE but keep in mind that even limited spellcasting (say Ranger's very useful at higher levels Armor of Faith) along with some other kit/class specific abilities do make them play differently enough and can be very useful depending on your party composition (not everyone goes through the game every time with a caster heavy party or rest spams, just like not everyone rolls a diplo-sniper everytime in Fallout).
So we agree that differences in classes are more pronounced.

IE monk sucked until level 14 (when it receives a major magic resistance boost and his fists become +2 weapon) and is a decent class from then on, way before TOB.
"Decent" at 14 is highly debatable. I would say, "fairly shitty but not completely shitty" at 14.

-Inquisitor is arguably the most powerful melee class in BG2 but Cavalier and Undead Hunter have pretty useful abilities of their own (and don't lose Turn Undead which is an underused ability that works even against liches at higher levels), they're certainly not garbage. Also, getting the Holy Avenger is and should feel like a defining moment for any paladin class/kit, it's intentional.
Those other 2 kits are garbage and their abilities are surpassed by mid game items in BG2. The notion of a single weapon of a specific type defining an entire class is terrible.

The only Ranger kit that is shit is Beastmaster, Stalker can be pretty potent with their Backstab (can reach x4), Fighter HP and THAC0 progression, Haste spell (that doesn't fatigue you IIRC), low level Priest Buff spells etc. not to mention that they have no real drawback given the abundance of great leather armours in the game.
Or just make a gnomish fighter/thief for shorty saving throws, backstab, thief skills, traps, etc. Stalker was garbage.

-Lastly, saying that the majority of IE classes/kits were garbage is just exaggerated nonsense. You're delusional if you don't think PoE will have optimum builds/classes/party compositions (even after 100 balance patches) etc. doesn't mean the rest of the options will be garbage as long as they result in a different gameplay experience and are good enough to tackle everything the game throws at you.
There are less flat out useless stat arrays and classes in PoE than in the IE games. Even the ranger and wizard, which I dislike, are of more use to the party than many of the classes/kits in the IE titles. This is TEN TIMES more true if playing BG1 at PoE levels before it was modded to have kits and crap.

Hard counters/Magic protection minigame do present issues of their own no doubt but atleast they do a good job of making sure various encounters feel different as you can't just tank and spank/bruteforce every enemy you come across, you have to adjust.
I could steamroll most of the IE games. Also, you dont need hard counters to have players do more than auto attack. That is a false,choice right there.
 

Johannes

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It's not an issue of having to do more than auto attack necessarily. What is important is that different fights play differently, force you to adapt. If you're casting the same spells each battle with little variation, that can be just as mindless as simply auto-attacking but more tiresome.
 

Shevek

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Umm, you could do the same thing over and over in IE and beat them all easily. Haste, kill, sleep. Haste, kill, sleep. Something hard? Stinking cloud, web, cloudkill, then haste, kill, sleep. Bring inquisitor just in case of invis or the need for dispel. Make sure wiz has breach. Tactics?

Edit: I guess on rare occaisions you prebuff, attack and pray (dragons) or you cheese shit with traps/skull traps too. Almost forgot those.
 

Anthony Davis

Blizzard Entertainment
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I'm still here. Believe me, the day I leave the codex, I won't be running, I will be walking away cool guy style while the codex explodes behind me.

I just haven't had anything productive to add to the conversation, and the it's just the same old same old, over and over again.


Well, I guess I can add this, but I think some of you already know this. There is some sort of combat exp. system now in the game. I didn't ask any details - that's all I know.
 
Joined
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Messages
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There is some sort of combat exp. system now in the game.
Damn it! Now I have to rewrite the script for my Josh Sawyer Bond villain spoof. Obama's reaction to Sawyer's removal of combat exp was pure comedy gold. You've ruined that scene Obsidian. I hope you're proud of yourselves.

:x
 

Johannes

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There is some sort of combat exp. system now in the game.
Damn it! Now I have to rewrite the script for my Josh Sawyer Bond villain spoof. Obama's reaction to Sawyer's removal of combat exp was pure comedy gold. You've ruined that scene Obsidian. I hope you're proud of yourselves.

:x
You can still do scenes depicting past events, I don't see the problem.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
There is some sort of combat exp. system now in the game.
Damn it! Now I have to rewrite the script for my Josh Sawyer Bond villain spoof. Obama's reaction to Sawyer's removal of combat exp was pure comedy gold. You've ruined that scene Obsidian. I hope you're proud of yourselves.

:x

He's talking about the bestiary xp, it's nothing new
 

Johannes

Arcane
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Umm, you could do the same thing over and over in IE and beat them all easily. Haste, kill, sleep. Haste, kill, sleep. Something hard? Stinking cloud, web, cloudkill, then haste, kill, sleep. Bring inquisitor just in case of invis or the need for dispel. Make sure wiz has breach. Tactics?

Edit: I guess on rare occaisions you prebuff, attack and pray (dragons) or you cheese shit with traps/skull traps too. Almost forgot those.
So basically your argument is, everything is shit so it's ok if PoE is shit as well?

I don't really agree with your assessment either though.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
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Messages
22,504
I was forced to look it out.
Bestiary XP is rewarded when new entries are unlocked in the Bestiary page in the Journal, and will stop being rewarded if the entry is complete.
Oh well.

I actually preferred when bestiary gave you new crafting recipes.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
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Messages
1,980
So we agree that differences in classes are more pronounced.

For those specific classes (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin), not so sure about others as some of them seem to be IE Mage split into several parts and I'm not so crazy about Monks being walking punching bags and Fighter and Rogue differing from one another by being a tank and DPS machine respectively.

"Decent" at 14 is highly debatable. I would say, "fairly shitty but not completely shitty" at 14.

Disagree, I soloed BG2 with Monk few years back and while it was a struggle until he reached level 14, he more than held his own afterwards.

Those other 2 kits are garbage and their abilities are surpassed by mid game items in BG2.

Then you can give those items (assuming you find them all which is not a guarantee unless you played the game before/looked them up on the internet) to other party members and again, at high enough levels (17-18 IIRC) Turn Undead can make mincemeat even out of your liches.

The notion of a single weapon of a specific type defining an entire class is terrible.

Meh, I like the idea of a class specific legendary weapon with unique stats rather then being rewarded with a sword that does 5% more damage than the previous one and gives +2 to Athletics and +1 to Lore or something.

Or just make a gnomish fighter/thief for shorty saving throws, backstab, thief skills, traps, etc. Stalker was garbage.

Gnomish F/T won't take over Stalker until you reach TOB level XP and start accessing HLAs.

There are less flat out useless stat arrays and classes in PoE than in the IE games. Even the ranger and wizard, which I dislike, are of more use to the party than many of the classes/kits in the IE titles. This is TEN TIMES more true if playing BG1 at PoE levels before it was modded to have kits and crap.

By less useless stat arrays do you mean one optimal stat distribution regardless of the class :)?

I could steamroll most of the IE games. Also, you dont need hard counters to have players do more than auto attack. That is a false,choice right there.

Not talking about auto-attack but using/spamming the same tactic for every encounter (also known as the Dragon Age syndrome). Hard counters may seem crude but they do a decent job of forcing (well more encouraging) you to adjust depending on the opponents you're facing. Some examples off the top of my head are - Protection from Petrification when you face Basilisks, Potion of Clarity/summon undead against Sirines, Potion of Freedom/Spider Bane/Ring of Free action against Spiders, Negative Plane Protection/Restoration spell/+2 weapons against Vampires, Chaotic Commands against Mind Flayers, magic blunt weapons for Clay Golems, Breach/Pierce Magic/Khelben Warding Whip against enemy spellcasters etc.
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
1,570
Umm, you could do the same thing over and over in IE and beat them all easily. Haste, kill, sleep. Haste, kill, sleep. Something hard? Stinking cloud, web, cloudkill, then haste, kill, sleep. Bring inquisitor just in case of invis or the need for dispel. Make sure wiz has breach. Tactics?

Edit: I guess on rare occaisions you prebuff, attack and pray (dragons) or you cheese shit with traps/skull traps too. Almost forgot those.
So basically your argument is, everything is shit so it's ok if PoE is shit as well?

I don't really agree with your assessment either though.

1. I was responding to roshan - not making these statements in isolation.
2. We are all free to disagree.
3. My assessment is that PoE improves on some of the shit IE did and that it is not worse than IE in those specific areas. Again, I was responding to roshan's long stream of gibberish.
 
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Shevek

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For those specific classes (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin), not so sure about others as some of them seem to be IE Mage split into several parts and I'm not so crazy about Monks being walking punching bags and Fighter and Rogue differing from one another by being a tank and DPS machine respectively.
I perfer dps/support builds for fighters in PoE. Ciphers and Chanters are awesome and play very differently as far as casters go. Druid in PoE are better than single class druids in IE (in some ways) though shapeshift still sucks. Priests are starting to feel pretty fun too. Wizards still suck, Ill admit that.

Disagree, I soloed BG2 with Monk few years back and while it was a struggle until he reached level 14, he more than held his own afterwards.
Ability to solo is not entirely relevant but a cleric/ranger could have done it 20x better.

Meh, I like the idea of a class specific legendary weapon with unique stats rather then being rewarded with a sword that does 5% more damage than the previous one and gives +2 to Athletics and +1 to Lore or something.
I disagree but I also felt BG2 was too Monty Hall.

Gnomish F/T won't take over Stalker until you reach TOB level XP and start accessing HLAs.
Nah, f/t is better the whole way thru bgt. Try it.

By less useless stat arrays do you mean one optimal stat distribution regardless of the class
This is untrue

hard counter stuff
I dunno. I didnt have to use half of that stuff. When I did, it was all about prebuffing and items. Thats not tactics, its strategy and its shitty strategy at that.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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Messages
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Referring back to metacritic user score chat from much earlier, I did some research into it and noticed a pattern.

Shadowrun Returns: DMS (Dragonfall and DC numbers are too low to be used as examples)
Positive: 630
Mixed: 84
Negative: 124

Wasteland 2
Positive: 683
Mixed: 73
Negative: 184

Divinity: Original Sin
Positive: 1,601
Mixed: 65
Negative: 127

The Steam ratios tell a similar tale.

Shadowrun Returns: DMS
Positive (4,562)
Negative (469)

Wasteland 2
Positive (3,115)
Negative (503)

Divinity: Original Sin
Positive (7,437)
Negative (554)

(love how even Dead Man's freaking Switch was received slightly better than Wasteland 2)

Roguey prediction: Like previous crowdfunded RPGs, Pillars of Eternity will have 120-200 haters on metacritic and about 500 dissatisfied customers on Steam. Like D:OS, it'll have over a thousand positive impressions on the former and thousands on the latter to drown those negative voices out. Wasteland 2, being as tediously dull as it was, failed to muster up the enthusiasm needed to give it a good average. Barring a massive bugfest (which I'll concede could happen), it doesn't seem likely to me that Pillars will end up the same way.
 

Deuce Traveler

2012 Newfag
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
^ So I should stop checking the Codex and check Metacritic instead? Man, all this time wasted here when I could have just been checking Metacritic scores the entire time.
 

Invictus

Arcane
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Divinity: Original Sin 2
Can someone spare us and just ban roguey? I understand freedom of speech and all that good shit here in the Codex, but using metacritic reviews for any argument is simply beyond retarded and a would warrant a ban.
And if PoE end us beign a clearly better game than Wasteland 2 I will ban myself
 

dukeofwhales

Cipher
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Nov 13, 2013
Messages
423
Can someone spare us and just ban roguey? I understand freedom of speech and all that good shit here in the Codex, but using metacritic reviews for any argument is simply beyond retarded and a would warrant a ban.
And if PoE end us beign a clearly better game than Wasteland 2 I will ban myself

Roguey wasn't trying to make a point with Metacritic scores, just continuing an earlier discussion about metacritic scores and the possibility of the backer negativity affecting them. Not that I think anyone actually pays attention to user scores since they are so easily brigaded - surely all metacritic-related incentives refer to critic score, yes?

Personally, I think Roguey is being naive thinking that PoE will sell better and/or be better received by the masses than D:OS simply because it does not look like DOTA/LOL. The number one negative I hear from the masses about PoE is that it looks "old" because of the largely static 2D backgrounds, compared to the cartoony 3D of D: OS. It will still sell just fine and be well received critically, but it won't be the breakout sales hit that D:OS was (and yes I know a lot of people bought D:OS and only played an hour or two, but sales are sales).

I do not think PoE will be overwhelmed by negativity due to the changes in mechanics, and that sentiment will be largely contained to here and the Obsidian forums. Most players were bad at Infinity Engine combat (including myself, to be fair), and because of that they won't find the differences in combat mechanics that significant. Everything else in the game "feels" right, and I think that will be enough, even if combat is still a bit wonky by release.
 

Lord Andre

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Messages
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Gypsystan
Umm, you could do the same thing over and over in IE and beat them all easily. Haste, kill, sleep. Haste, kill, sleep. Something hard? Stinking cloud, web, cloudkill, then haste, kill, sleep. Bring inquisitor just in case of invis or the need for dispel. Make sure wiz has breach. Tactics?

Edit: I guess on rare occaisions you prebuff, attack and pray (dragons) or you cheese shit with traps/skull traps too. Almost forgot those.

This is absolute bullshit, the tactics you describe work only for about 60-65% of the encounters and even then only if your party is specifically customized for that tactic. And they wouldn't work unless you are the appropiate level for the encounter. Off the top of my head, quests that may surprise you by trapping you in them and forcing you to find more creative tactics because you might be a lower level than advisable: Illithids in sewers, Planar Sphere, The Unseeing Eye, The Circus (it's at the beginning before you have haste). In a game which has one of the best, if not the best combat encounters, you are telling me you can brute force anything with haste + sleeps and prebuffing. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No.

This is exactly like people talking about JA2 but they only played on easy or for a few hours. Or maybe you are just lying intentionally to serve your purpose...In any case your statement above is bullshit.

Also breach breach breach mage battles are a very late game issue, but people talk about it like it happened every other encounter.

Pre-buffing - buffs have limited time especially the important ones and also not all are group casted. If you spent time adding all the shit on your guys, half would expire after the first round.

If you want to defend POE at all costs, fine, but stop it with the bullshit and highly inaccurate statements.
 

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