Avernum 2: Crystal Souls

[k0syak]

Looked at the screenshots and have to say that Exile still looks better than the remakes.

 

[solomonhume]

Just to clarify, I have played Avernums 1-4 and Geneforges 1-5, plus Nethergate. It's the new engine and skill systems I'm wondering.

If you do not like Escape from the pit, you will not like Crystal souls either. They are very similar, except this game is bigger and physical attack is even more under-powered.

 

[Smoked Brisket]

I am late to this thread, sorry about that. I have bought and supported all Vogel's releases, mainly based on the codex's unfailing support. I have found each and every one of them to be original in srory at least until "crystal Souls." Just boring overall, a rehash of storylines and maps with a sprinkling of aliens. This is not Jeff's smallest game but it is his worst.

 

[Durandal]

I'm a newb when it comes to Jeff Vogel games, and I'd like to try out the Exile and Geneforge series, so I'd figure I ask here.
Should I play the Exile series before Avernum? I heard Avernum was a remake of Exile, but I'm also hearing the usual Codex grumbling about them.

 

[k0syak]

If you can get Exile to run, it's the best IMHO, but newest Avernums seem kinda better than the previous remakes.

 

[solomonhume]

I'm a newb when it comes to Jeff Vogel games, and I'd like to try out the Exile and Geneforge series, so I'd figure I ask here.
Should I play the Exile series before Avernum? I heard Avernum was a remake of Exile, but I'm also hearing the usual Codex grumbling about them.

No. They are complaining because they have played Exiles and the remakes do not add enough to deserve being bought and played again. Adding salt to injury, Jeff make new remakes of remakes.
But if you have not played any, play the newest ones. I'd suggest
Avernum: escape from the pit
Avernum 6
Avernum 5

 

[pippin]

The Avernum 1 remake added more areas and lore, but if you don't mind old interfaces then you shoudln't have a problem with the old one. I think you'll have to keep your own notes for the quests, since you're supposed to complete your journal by yourself. The remake has a quest log and etc.

 

[Jo498]

I am late to this thread, sorry about that. I have bought and supported all Vogel's releases, mainly based on the codex's unfailing support. I have found each and every one of them to be original in srory at least until "crystal Souls." Just boring overall, a rehash of storylines and maps with a sprinkling of aliens. This is not Jeff's smallest game but it is his worst.

As Exile II in 1996 it was his best, I think. As it was only his second game "re-hash" of storylines feels slightly unfair. Back then it felt like a very plausible continuation of the first Exile.
I have only played two of the Geneforges (I think the first two) and not quite finished Avernum 5 and 6 (but I got close to the endgame in both), maybe half of the first Avadon and I still think that the first three Exiles are huge achievements (for what was basically a one man team back then) and they are among my favorite games ever.
Discovering that huge open world of Exile I and the river journey to the Vahnatai in Exile II are among my most cherished gaming experiences. Exile III is even bigger (and better/more interesting in some mechanics, e.g. a timer is included) but did not feel as immersive. I disliked the first batch of Avernum remakes, Avernum 4 is also rather weak but 5 and 6 are quite good again. And while I do not remember the Re-remake of Escape from the pit, I played it about 2 years ago and it was decent (much better than the "intermediate" Avernum).
But for me who never played Ultima 4-6 the unique atmosphere and storyline (+ silly gags with spiders etc.) of the old Exiles is not captured by his newer games and the remakes that feel somewhat streamlined and generic to me.

 

[Smoked Brisket]

I'm a newb when it comes to Jeff Vogel games, and I'd like to try out the Exile and Geneforge series, so I'd figure I ask here.
Should I play the Exile series before Avernum? I heard Avernum was a remake of Exile, but I'm also hearing the usual Codex grumbling about them.

I like the Avernum series. I would say that the Geneforge series was more interesting and fun to me. Geneforge 2 being the best. That was my starting point with Spiderweb.

 

[Johannes]

Exile is in many ways more fun than the newer versions of it, but the interface is extremely tedious as the big downside. Mostly the inventory management.

 

[Jo498]

I guess this depends what one is used to. There were some UI pains in the very first version (where one could only carry 12 items, all gear and armor included, except for special items like keys and so and identification was only possible in a few towns) but by Exile III and Blades of Exile it was o.k. or at least I was used to it so it did not bother me at all. It's rather simple and straightforward, close to Ultima 4 or 5, I guess. If one has no problem with the look and feel of Ultima 5 one should probably rather play Exile than Avernum. In any case it cannot hurt to try both. Apparently I am not the only one who tends to prefer Exile to Avernum.

 

[Night Goat]

The HP bloat killed this game for me, I ended up quitting in a dungeon where room after room, my party of mages would cast their best AoE spells again and again and it still took forever to whittle down the opponents' HP. Is there any mod that fixes it?

 

[Jo498]

Can't you just switch to a lower difficulty (main screen)?
I do not remember such a problem in Exile. With some Blades of Exile scenarios there was a crude scaling that could make the game flip from too easy to annoying and hard if the party lvls exceeded some value.

Overall the battles got considerably harder in the later Avernums (and maybe also in the re-makes) and Geneforge. I got stuck in one Geneforge game because I simply could not hurt a bunch of monsters blocking a certain path I had to take. With help of a walkthru I then found out that I could learn to summon drakes somewhere and with two summoned drakes and their breath weapons that fight was not very hard anymore. This is poor balance, IMO. Similarly, I lost fun with the first Avadon where I had switched to a slightly harder lvl because the beginning had been too easy but later on some battles were just too hard (but I didn't want to switch back to the standard/easier lvl). I think in the skill tree games like Avadon one can also "mess up" characters if one does not know which skills are really important and choses poor skill paths in the beginning.

 

[Nim]

The HP bloat killed this game for me, I ended up quitting in a dungeon where room after room, my party of mages would cast their best AoE spells again and again and it still took forever to whittle down the opponents' HP. Is there any mod that fixes it?

A2CS Remix isn't out yet. http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/21752-a2cs-remix-testers-wanted/ Apart from that I don't think there are any mods.

Just play on casual and be glad you are playing mages, due to the fucking dumb armor formula you are doing around double the damage a physical attacker does at the end. And you got AoE attacks.

 

[Agesilaus]

I like the Avernum series. I would say that the Geneforge series was more interesting and fun to me. Geneforge 2 being the best. That was my starting point with Spiderweb.

I approached these games from a similar start, too. My first was Nethergate, then I played the Geneforges, and then... the decline is unbearable. Avadon had some good moments and the story can be interesting, but the mechanics and the trashmobs ruin it. Just so awful. If you wish to continue remaking games, then remake good ones like nethergate and geneforge, not trash mob grinding disasters.

That said, Escape from the Pit wasn't all bad. I did enjoy it and successfully completed it. Crystal Souls was a step too far, though. Almost no choices involved, it's just an endless slog through a world that was played out in the first avernum.

 

[Johannes]

The HP bloat killed this game for me, I ended up quitting in a dungeon where room after room, my party of mages would cast their best AoE spells again and again and it still took forever to whittle down the opponents' HP. Is there any mod that fixes it?

Yeah, HP bloat is a common problem in his games. For some reason all the enemies have much higher HP than you, and you must constantly use healing to bridge that gap while whittling them down. While the healing spells the enemy (extremely rarely) uses, are weaker than yours.

I always dislike it when your enemies follow dfferent logic than you do, when there's no logical reason for it. So random beasts would be ok to work very differently, but not humanoids like you.

At least earlier Exile/Avernum 2 were badly enough balanced so you had ways to mow through enemies extremely fast in the endgame.

 

[Agesilaus]

Trash Mobs + HP Bloat = Kiss of Death

 

[Nim]

Yeah, HP bloat is a common problem in his newer games.

Fixed. He started that shit in G5/A6. At least he recognizes that it's a problem.

* Difficulty

My games have long dealt with difficulty by making foes have more health and do more damage. I want to handle this in a smarter way.

I am strongly considering having area of effect spells do friendly fire damage on Hard and Torment level. I want combat positioning in my games to make a difference, and this will be a key part of that. I will also make the more nasty foe abilities (like charm and fear) be more common on higher difficulties.

http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/...-avadon-3-the-warborn-changes-and-discussion/

 

[Jo498]

I think the earlier (i.e. original Exile) series were better because combat was not so important and overall not so hard, with some exceptions or unless one got too early in some region reserved for later. I played those games for exploration, story, puzzles etc. and battles were not the main focus (compared to some pillar rooms and similar puzzles not the main difficulty either).
I have not played the later Geneforge games but in Avernum 4-6 I think the combat uneasily oscillated between too easy and too hard. Other than the tactical battles in older games like Goldbox I usually don't find the battles in those interesting enough to be a tactical challenge. If hard, they are usually just annoyingly hard.
The worst in one Geneforge (I think #2) was that I simply could not get past a certain battle because my character (agent) was not sufficiently high lvl so her spells did not hurt those eye-beasts (or whatever it was) and there was no alternative tactics (at least none I could think of). Those guys were just almost immune to those spells and there was nothing I could do. (But I had to pass that bridge to continue the game!) Then I found (with help of a walkthru) that I could learn somewhere to shape/summon drakes. And with two summoned drakes and their breath weapons the battle fell from impossible to fairly easy. This is poor design, IMO, and I do not remember anything like that from the Exile games.

 

[Johannes]

Fixed. He started that shit in G5/A6. At least he recognizes that it's a problem. http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/...-avadon-3-the-warborn-changes-and-discussion/

As he says, difficulty = more hp is a long time trend of his. Always been that way iirc. Though his earlier games were often extremely easy after a certain point, instead - part of it is how he's made more elaborate boss battles now, but other than that did he simply scale the enemy hp's up across all difficulty levels to get to the current situation? Or increase the difference between normal and torment?

 

[Nim]

As he says, difficulty = more hp is a long time trend of his. Always been that way iirc. Though his earlier games were often extremely easy after a certain point, instead - part of it is how he's made more elaborate boss battles now, but other than that did he simply scale the enemy hp's up across all difficulty levels to get to the current situation? Or increase the difference between normal and torment?

Just checked to make sure, the first Geneforge game where HP change on difficulty is 5. The named Alpha in the first area has his hitpoints go from 216 on casual to 576 on torment. Though I also think he upped boss HPs in general which leads to them having way too much HPs compared to their trash versions.

G1-4 "only" have damage scaling, 2x from normal to torment afaik.

 

[solomonhume]

Just checked to make sure, the first Geneforge game where HP change on difficulty is 5. The named Alpha in the first area has his hitpoints go from 216 on casual to 576 on torment. Though I also think he upped boss HPs in general which leads to them having way too much HPs compared to their trash versions.

G1-4 "only" have damage scaling, 2x from normal to torment afaik.

G1-4 also have chance to hit scaling. On higher difficulties, expect to be hit 95% of the time and ignore anything that gives a bonus chance to dodge.

 

[Jo498]

There was a very rough HP (and maybe damage) scaling already for Blades of Exile. Mainly because the shortish scenarios would in theory work best for a fairly narrow range of party/character lvls. If one's party exceeded some sum of lvls, monster's hp doubled. And for some reason this could be halfway through a scenario and change difficulty more than intended. At least this was my experience.

 

[Johannes]

There was a very rough HP (and maybe damage) scaling already for Blades of Exile. Mainly because the shortish scenarios would in theory work best for a fairly narrow range of party/character lvls. If one's party exceeded some sum of lvls, monster's hp doubled. And for some reason this could be halfway through a scenario and change difficulty more than intended. At least this was my experience.

We're not talking about level scaling here, which his other games don't have, but of the difference between difficulty levels.

 

[taurtue]

I've played the demo for a few hours now, only to realize it was different than any other spiderweb's game. I apparently can't upgrade my demo version to premium by buying it. Is that actually correct? Will I have to buy it and start over on a different, freshly downloaded version? That would make me not buy it, I don't want to waste the 4-5 hours I've spent on the game so far.

Beside that, being an old spiderweb player (first game I've played was exile 2, before exile 3 went out) I don't think those remakes are THAT bad, I'm enjoying playing them.

But I sure would prefer 10000000 times play remakes of the geneforge serie, which is pure gold.