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UnderRail review at RPS - and it's negative!

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,278
I still feel like the walk speed in that game still not being fixed comes down to "we'll fix it for the expansion," and is by far the biggest reason I can't really recommend it. I don't know how you can't just double the animation frames on the legs and have the little fucker scuttle round like he's on ice, if I can speedhack the game for 4x move speed the game developer should enable that natively.

I guess it doesn't work because there are game mechanics that operate outside of turnbased combat which would be affected by your walk speed, like stealth, or segments where you run around and have to avoid electric floors or complete some other timed challenge all of which are balanced for the current slow walk speed. It seems there's no elegant solution to this for the team to add so they're staying away from it. Hopefully someone comes up with a solution.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
I guess it doesn't work because there are game mechanics that operate outside of turnbased combat which would be affected by your walk speed, like stealth, or segments where you run around and have to avoid electric floors or complete some other timed challenge all of which are balanced for the current slow walk speed. It seems there's no elegant solution to this for the team to add so they're staying away from it. Hopefully someone comes up with a solution.

I can still stealth and avoid obstacles just fine on 5x speed, so going to 2x with a optional toggle shouldn't present a problem for anyone really.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
I guess it doesn't work because there are game mechanics that operate outside of turnbased combat which would be affected by your walk speed, like stealth, or segments where you run around and have to avoid electric floors or complete some other timed challenge all of which are balanced for the current slow walk speed. It seems there's no elegant solution to this for the team to add so they're staying away from it. Hopefully someone comes up with a solution.

I can still stealth and avoid obstacles just fine on 5x speed, so going to 2x with a optional toggle shouldn't present a problem for anyone really.

Higher speed makes it easier to stealth. Not harder. Personally in over 300 hours UR I not once felt the need to increase the speed outside of combat.

I hope Styg will keep the speed as it is. I would not mind if he allows for an option or a toggle which I can safely ignore.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
Higher speed makes it easier to stealth. Not harder. Personally in over 300 hours UR I not once felt the need to increase the speed outside of combat.

I hope Styg will keep the speed as it is. I would not mind if he allows for an option or a toggle which I can safely ignore.

Why would it be easier to stealth? The game mechanics are the same, you just have to position and react 5x faster in real time. I obv. found it harder than on 1x.

Combat speed is much better, but even that is better on at least 2x. Walking around core city on 1x made me want to look up a suicide prevention hotline.
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
29,683
Location
About 8 meters beneath sea level.
Guess the guy doesn't like exploration. I do. He also demands a lot of story and gameworld exhibition in order to stay interested. The game had plenty of that for me. Although it's indeed a bit more subtle than in most games. Guess paying attention is too hard. He's right about the main story not being that engaging though. As for his complaints about combat? Take some time to design an actual character that can survive instead of going for the 'the pc is awesome and therefore all builds should work' train of thought.

Dunno. Sounds to me like the usual RPS review where they let someone who expects and demands a specific kind of game to play something entirely different. And lo, they don't like it.

Anyway, let's get some entertainment out of this. Blaine
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
"“it’s like Fallout or those old Infinity Engine RPGs, but with an interface designed for humans”"

Retard
it's not even possible to diss IE interface if you've ever played any game on IE
namedropping for namedropping's sake deserves a punch to the throat, one per name dropped
You have to put yourself in their shoes. He opens Inventory and there are many stats there he does not understand. He opens character screen, again so many stats. He even needs to scroll down to see more stats. He opens spellbook, here each spell has so much description and stats. So much reading and he only wanted to know the DPS of his weapon or spell like the last RPG he liked had (Diablo 3). So now in his mind this is all UI and now in his mind UI is bad.
Yeah, what was wrong with Fallout's UI? The inventory was a little bit of a drag, but otherwise I seem to recall its being extraordinarily approachable.
I don't know about other players but for me, except for the inventory that I didn't enjoy all the scrolling (especially when IE games did it better), you needed to click way too many times when choosing attack mode. I would have prefered something like Xcom where you get a little list and you click on it instead of needing to right click on left or right hand until you get to what you want and if you miss it by accident you need to do same again.
Also trading interface I think had same problem like inventory.
 

Jimmious

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
5,132
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I might be repeating my self, but I do think that the whole comparison with Fallout did more harm than good to Underrail. The reason is simple: Underrail has very little in common with Fallout.
Apart from them both being turn-based, Underrail is completely combat/crafting focused while Fallout was more about the questing and C&C and so on. Combat was frequent but was not the best point of the game by any chance. Also all the quest related stat checks in FO, the companions that join you etc etc ... All these are nowhere to be found in Underrail, or are irrelevant.
This comparison kinda ruined Underrail for me btw as I went in expecting Fallout and instead I got a TB-Diablo or sorts.
I'm not saying Underrail is bad or anything though, it's just not what the "rumors" made it to be.

So in a way I get where the reviewer is coming from. Although the combat complaints are obviously of the "git gud" variety.
 

Black Angel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 23, 2016
Messages
2,910
Location
Wonderland
Also all the quest related stat checks in FO, ...... nowhere to be found in Underrail, or are irrelevant.
What? There are quest-related stat checks in Underrail. Most prominently PER checks for hidden paths and other secrets, although sadly there are only very few STR and AGI checks across the game, but still.... that's not 'nowhere to be found'. I actually can't remember any stat checks in FO aside from CHA, LCK, and PER mostly limited to Traps-detection. The only thing that disappointed me is the lack of opportunity to use Crowbar using STR checks to just bust mechanical locks, which was also extremely lacking (or maybe doesn't even exist) in Fallout, and it's a huge improvement in Fallout 1.5: Resurrection to have that opportunity.
 

Jimmious

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
5,132
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I might be forgetting some stuff, I played 20-25 hours some time ago and all I can remember now is combat and crafting. I can't remember any NPC or dialog at all. I guess that is indicative about what I mean in comparison to Fallout
 

28.8bps Modem

Prophet
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Messages
302
Location
The Internet, Circa 1993
I guess it doesn't work because there are game mechanics that operate outside of turnbased combat which would be affected by your walk speed, like stealth, or segments where you run around and have to avoid electric floors or complete some other timed challenge all of which are balanced for the current slow walk speed. It seems there's no elegant solution to this for the team to add so they're staying away from it. Hopefully someone comes up with a solution.

None of this is insurmountable, I think it's mostly just a holdover from when the combat was real time and it was necessary to limit everyone to the same walking pace. I expect it makes the pathfinding and collision resolution easier too. I think people forget how far in to development the real time combat made it before sanity prevailed.
 

Lord Azlan

Arcane
Patron
Shitposter
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
1,901
T'is strange.

Although I agree with a lot of what the reviewer said it's made me want to play the game again.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
Also all the quest related stat checks in FO, ...... nowhere to be found in Underrail, or are irrelevant.
What? There are quest-related stat checks in Underrail. Most prominently PER checks for hidden paths and other secrets, although sadly there are only very few STR and AGI checks across the game, but still.... that's not 'nowhere to be found'. I actually can't remember any stat checks in FO aside from CHA, LCK, and PER mostly limited to Traps-detection. The only thing that disappointed me is the lack of opportunity to use Crowbar using STR checks to just bust mechanical locks, which was also extremely lacking (or maybe doesn't even exist) in Fallout, and it's a huge improvement in Fallout 1.5: Resurrection to have that opportunity.
There is also a Stealth check in Junkyard since that is the only way to do that quest for that dude which eventually gives you access to the Pyramid.
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,278
I guess it doesn't work because there are game mechanics that operate outside of turnbased combat which would be affected by your walk speed, like stealth, or segments where you run around and have to avoid electric floors or complete some other timed challenge all of which are balanced for the current slow walk speed. It seems there's no elegant solution to this for the team to add so they're staying away from it. Hopefully someone comes up with a solution.

I can still stealth and avoid obstacles just fine on 5x speed, so going to 2x with a optional toggle shouldn't present a problem for anyone really.

This is about adding a running animation, not a game speed up (which Styg hates because it lets you cheese trader resupplying for one), it would just make some puzzles and non-combat aspects too easy. I hope they figure something out because I don't really like using a third party speed up hack.

None of this is insurmountable, I think it's mostly just a holdover from when the combat was real time and it was necessary to limit everyone to the same walking pace. I expect it makes the pathfinding and collision resolution easier too. I think people forget how far in to development the real time combat made it before sanity prevailed.

Might be that, or animation issues partially, but I don't think so about the latter since it didn't bother anyone on the team that you walk through vents while completely erect.
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,278
Checks in Underrail aren't focused on attributes/stats as much as in Fallout, they're based on skills a lot more and the skills in Underrail are impacted by base stats more strongly than Fallout's far as I can tell, so it's almost the same thing. There's plenty of Persuade/Intimidate/Mercantile checks.

get sprint feat
and/or tabi boots

I have those and they help only a tiny bit, as for infused stuff that's very lategame and build dependent, I think I'm at 100 hours and still can't craft anything infused yet as I haven't focused on Tailoring.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
This is about adding a running animation, not a game speed up (which Styg hates because it lets you cheese trader resupplying for one), it would just make some puzzles and non-combat aspects too easy. I hope they figure something out because I don't really like using a third party speed up hack.

How can it be about running animations when he's talking about stealth specifically, where, even if there were a new, seperate running animation, that would just be disabled? Stealth is already slower than walking, why would adding an OoC running animation impact it?

If people want to cheese traders they will do so irrespective of an game speed setting. Just the 2x setting like PoE has would be a godsend, heck since it's in game you could de-couple trader spawns from it (effectively hurting the player) and people would still use it.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
if you did you could craft tabi boots with 30% walking speed
if you cant craft infused leather, rathound regalia gives 10% bonus. Good infused hopper can give you 20%.

I can only assume that those bonuses are additive. Also they are more important for sneaking than actual sneak skill. Its funny when you trigger sprint and enter sneak mode. For few seconds you will be able to sneak past heavy guarded, well lit area.
Judging by what people write in here most did not invest in those.
I was auto sneaking everywhere and never felt I need to use a speed hack.
Then my character in sneak mode, along with interloper feat and those items was faster than normal walking speed of regular player.

I had boots with a q 120sh bootspring and something like 150 black cloth tabi with tailoring, can't remember how much bonus it gives you but it can't get much higher than with those, the OoC bonuses don't stack. Even with all that it's still a drag, and even then it would still be poorly designed.

Sneak balance can be completely separated from OoC movement speed, no point really in bringing it up.
 

Vorark

Erudite
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
1,394
I actually took time to read everything. Let's see...

Even on easy mode, too many fights come down to hoping that enemies will miss, against the odds.

Oh, please. I hate crafting so I went the whole game with stuff I found around and still managed to finish it. Was loads of fun. :D

One completely unannounced monster is stealthy (you can sometimes spot stealthy enemies if stealthed yourself and standing close. If you miss them… reload. Sometimes you can see them but still not attack them. Reload. Sometimes you can see them, attack them, and miss. Reload. Sensing a pattern?), with venomous attacks that also render you helpless.

Wat. You could increase PER to find hidden enemies or use one of those special googles.

Even stealth lends itself to fighting better than to evasion, because dodging between multiple enemies randomly wandering in a very small space leads to yet more quicksave roulette.

Scout first or just bypass them; stealth is this good. You don't need to kill everything on the screen if you went with the Oddity system.

Oh, and speaking of pathing and controls, for the love of god, if you’re making a turn based game, give us the option to confirm our orders. Underrail has a nasty habit of misinterpreting clicks in combat, adding more chances to instantly doom yourself.

Never had this problem in Underrail, but it happend all the time in Divinity: OS.

Here we have a world whose difficulty demands levelling, which in turn demands exploration of all the side tunnels you can find (standard encounter rules apply: the only way to gauge a fight is to save the game, then let them kill you). All areas are interconnected with other screens; there’s no overworld map at all. There is a fast travel option between settlements, but you still need to explore, and still need to get across the settlements.

Seems he isn't the type who enjoys exploring every nook and cranny. One my favorite parts was when I got lost in the subway, stumbled upon caverns, took down a gang, found a good shield and ended up in a new civilized area. Lack of map might be a bit annoying at first but you'll quickly learn the area layout.

Even at their worst, the games Underrail is inspired by had strong narrative hooks to contextualise a player’s decisions, and give incentive to go on through stickier patches.

I thought the tidbits here and there did their job well. You've got the Faceless and later the Institute to wonder about. That said, I don't think Underrail was ever meant to be a story-driven game. Storyfags, storyfags never change. :shittydog:

About the walking speed, I didn't mind it but then again I wasn't bothered by BG1 either, so whatever. Nonetheless, it can be gratting for most people; a toogle is a good idea, at least outside of combat.

tl;dr: git gud :dance:
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Toward the end I too wished for a little more story in Underrail. But there will be an expansion which will most likely provide that.
 

Jack Dandy

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
3,039
Location
Israel
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Pretty retarded review

Only thing I can somewhat kinda agree on is the walking speed (And you can fix that with CheatEngine).

However, Certifex or Pontifex or whatever his name was was bullshit, that one really did all end up as reloading until he doesn't fuck you up in the first round.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Yes, I got lucky and managed to beat Carnifex after like the 100th attempt.
 

Trash Player

Scholar
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Messages
438
Catch with Carnifex is that high initiative and no initial stealth means a lot of clutch is out of question, i.e. traps, flashbang, shield or just a safe alpha strike.
He wouldn't take more than 3 tries if you have a real counter plan, e.g. good armour and hp(quite build dependent) or stacking initiatives(easier with recent patches).
 

Urthor

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
Messages
1,872
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I guess it doesn't work because there are game mechanics that operate outside of turnbased combat which would be affected by your walk speed, like stealth, or segments where you run around and have to avoid electric floors or complete some other timed challenge all of which are balanced for the current slow walk speed. It seems there's no elegant solution to this for the team to add so they're staying away from it. Hopefully someone comes up with a solution.

All of those gameplay interactions probably consume about 1% of your actual playtime of the game, compared to the vast majority of the time that has been spent walking around. The quality of life balance for faster walking convenience vs breaking some fairly minor gameplay elements is pretty obviously tilted, the game would probably be a bunch higher on metacritic, be far better reviewed and have higher sales if they just patched the running animation.

Some people on the Codex have way too much time & autism on their hands to wait around for glacial run speed and aren't bothered by it. The rest of us have no desire to be hindered by something so annoying, because the only time we've got for our RPGs is 4h after work on Fridays.
 

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