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4x board games

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
As we were discussing Eclipse on another thread about Age of Wonders 3, I thought we could as well have a new one here.
Which options are there in the first place?

-Eclipse
-Twilight Imperium
-Space Empire 4x
-Sid Meier's Civilization

I guess there are other I forgot or never played
Should Runewars count?

Now about Eclipse:

*Edit: Eclipse, which is one of my favourites ever, is also unbalanced as fuck.

But balance is a problem in Eclipse:
The plasma missile tech is the only useful weapon tech, so not having it cripples you, and getting it is more important that every other tech. The game would clearly be better if it were not the case. It resulted in 5 different fixes being implemented in the expansion.

This is actually OT but I assure you I've won many a game of eclipse even before the expansion and even without plasma missiles, which are nice but far from game winning. Literally. I've rarely seen anyone that spent much in fleet upgrades actually winning a game! It's more a case of a perceived unbalance... But to explain why I 'd need to derail this convo even more.

But then again, balancing a single item is never a problem. We're talking about balancing all civs so they can compete against each other so that each choice is viable or any other empty modern buzzword.

Actually, it depends on whether you are playing 1v1, teamgames, or free for all.
In 1v1, plasma missiles are not a perceived imbalance at all. In larger games, they might not be enough to let you overextend.
Iirc, the races are also imbalanced to the point they advise against allowing some of them in 1vs1 in the manual :)
But playing larger games sort of auto solve the issue indeed, as table politics>military imbalances.
Btw, how is the MP of the Steam version now?
I was pretty disapointed with the iOS version when it came to basic functionalities (games canceled if one player goes AFK, no replay of other player turns...), and the lack of expansion content. Did they patch the MP since?

Never tried the Pc version and never owned anything running iOS, I only play the board version. I don't even know if they are balanced exactly the same way so I don't know if what I'm saying is still valid on digital. You're right in that there are some incredibly OP races if you play 1 vs 1 (the manual says so) but you always have the option to go all humans if you want a balanced start. In any other situation Hydran are just the best race, give them to the newbs. I love mecha and planta above all. You know Plantas, the weakest of races, can actually pull of a rush in 1 vs 1 or alliance? You'll need someone to cover your ass afterwards but initially their lousy ships actually have an energy advantage over 4 races and the humies...

Spoilering because OT, sorry guys but I don't know where to respond to this:

The problem with Plasma Missile is quite simple, they are a pricey end-tier tech, do a lot of damage but only fire once per combat. By their nature, if you go PlaMis you'll want to spam them on interceptors (it's quite easy to stop plasma on a captial, and cap ships need staying power to get their full value in combat) so people are discouraged when 5-6 interceptors can output ~20+ damage dices.

Solution: just send there a single point of armor above that number, it doesn't matter in which form. A point of armor left and a basic cannon mean the whole system is yours after the initial barrage. If he mixes any other weapon with plasma to have a chance in the subsequent combat phases he's purposedly gimping himself, since he's either using basic or he wasted research for 2 top tier weapon and that means he has lost anyway. The point is you need a lot of ships to capitalize on plasma missile, and you have to mix them with other weapons if you want to actually keep the system after you destroy your enemy fleet.
Remember that ultimately you win by point in Eclipse, the only thing PlaMis are good for pre-expansion is to discourage a prowerful neighbour from attacking, if he spent a lot on fleet he needs to attack in order to capitallize, and you don't send your regenerating 3 moves 7 AR capital to attack someone with PlaMis, too much of a gamble.

All this is moot anyway, since Eclipse gets 1000 better with the first expansion and 10 better with the second one, so you can counter PlaMis with flux or whatever other tech you have around.

Hope no zelous moderator comes splitting those last pages...

It is true that you can specifically counter plasma missiles a little with design that will get trounced by everything else :)
But the point is that it is over the top for such a tech IMO.

Now regarding the digital versions, both are basically the same as the base game pre ROTA, but suffer from horrible MP functionalities : players missing turns were not handled gracefully at all: if no turn has been submitted over 2 days or something like that, the games vanished forever. I think out of the 40 or so games I started on iOS with more than 2 players, I was able to complete 5.

That said, it seems to have been improved a lot, as players are now kicked and boted after they miss the deadline. I still would prefer having an option to let the AI take over for a turn instead of forever(or take forever after a fixed number of missed turns).
So I am on the fence about it. I would definitely get it if RotA was ported too, but I cannot go back to the vanilla game now :)
 

Grunker

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Dunno much about the genre outside the biggest players, but always found Twillight Imperium to be an awesome idea with a really good base execution but once you play a game for more than 45 minutes it starts falling apart. Kindda like RISK
 

Matalarata

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Good idea Galdred

It is true that you can specifically counter plasma missiles a little with design that will get trounced by everything else :)

Plasma missiles are basically countered by reinforced hull. And having it is hardly designing something that gets trounced by everything else. Far from it! Remember also that, at least in tabletop, you can just redesign your ships each turn. Get IH early, put one instance of it everywhere and if someone comes knocking with PlasMis just spam it with a single action on your cap or interceptors, thus instantly increasing armor. Remember, you're defending, you only need a single cannon left!
Mecha are particularly good at this, since they can swap three upgrades with a single action, that means instant 10hp capitals and 4-7 hp interceptors with a single action. Actually last time I did so I needed 2 actions, because the one trying the attack (sans PlasMis, I admit) just stopped committing the other half of his fleet, searching for softer targets. The second action was to put my capitals back in the old config :lol:
I have no AAR at hand atm but if you head to BGG you'll find many an instance in which this strategy is discussed, improved hull is the most important tech in base Eclipse and it's pratically impossible not to get if you aim for it! Ultra useful all around, not just vs PlaMis!

Twillight Imperium

Solid game, I had the pleasure of playing it once. Unfortunately I only have a couple of weeks of vacation per year and board games taking up to 8 hours to finish are... problematic. I still prefer Eclipse for the tighter focus and lovely mechanics (the MoO vibe is another plus) but TI gives you a better space opera feel. I ultimately felt the actual mechanics were somewhat disconnected though, as if cards and dices rarely reflected what the actual feel of being in a space opera should be. Hard to explain, maybe I'll try playing it more, once I retire.


DownrightAdorableEsok.gif
 
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RuySan

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Don't know if Game of Thrones counts as a 4X, since there's no exploration, but it's an excellent way to lose friends.
 

udm

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Make the Codex Great Again!
Bought TI 3e four years back, still haven't played it, and now 4th Edition is out :(
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Indeed, I much prefered the simpler earlier editions of TI which were mostly about destroying each other fleet. The later one feel "clunky" with too many moving parts, some of which do not work as well as anticipated (the Council phase is mostly just counting the influence of players who have interest in option A against the same for option B instead of dealmaking and backstabbing).
I should have sold my copy before they announced TI4...

Don't know if Game of Thrones counts as a 4X, since there's no exploration, but it's an excellent way to lose friends.
We'll end up covering all the conflict games if we go this road, but the exploration element might be an arbitrary condition indeed.
GoT is an awesome game in the beginning, but after a time, I have found games to be really samey (especially the first turn, but it can be enough to put Lannisters out of the game for good).
That said, it took me quite a lot of games to get to this point (something like 30), so I cannot complain much.


On a side note.
I wonder whether Star Wars Rebellion should count given that the Empire has to exlpore the whole board to find the Rebel base :)

Matalarata How is Eclipse with teams? I have never played it this way, even though most of the games we play are team games nowadays(QuarterMaster General, Nexus Ops, Imperial Assault) after some of us got sick of kingmaking.
 

Grunker

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^ he, I think I would like TI more if the military element was toned down or removed completely and the game was almost only about exploration and politics.

EDIT: The core elements of exploring hexes and negotiating policies is always immensely enjoyable to me, at least.
 

Matalarata

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How is Eclipse with teams

:negative:

Awesome! On paper. In reality, know what's the biggest problem in 4x board games balance? Player skill disparity. Teams allows for really powerful combinations, the team with the best meta usually wins. We play it regularlly when we're numerous but at the end of the day, even after an in-depth counseling, specific races combo advices and research tips, in a closed group like my geeky friends irl are, a couple of players will inevitably stand out and outperform everyone. This is only made worse by team play, better to go with diplo and on-the-fly NAP imho, you can't put both fleets in the same hex but it just works better.

This is a problem in another game I deeply love, Illuminati. It's only good if each player knows what he's doing, else it rapidly falls into unbalance. But I digress, again, and I already derailed one thread :lol:
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
How is Eclipse with teams

:negative:

Awesome! On paper. In reality, know what's the biggest problem in 4x board games balance? Player skill disparity. Teams allows for really powerful combinations, the team with the best meta usually wins. We play it regularlly when we're numerous but at the end of the day, even after an in-depth counseling, specific races combo advices and research tips, in a closed group like my geeky friends irl are, a couple of players will inevitably stand out and outperform everyone. This is only made worse by team play, better to go with diplo and on-the-fly NAP imho, you can't put both fleets in the same hex but it just works better.

This is a problem in another game I deeply love, Illuminati. It's only good if each player knows what he's doing, else it rapidly falls into unbalance. But I digress, again, and I already derailed one thread :lol:

Well end up having to open another new thread about team games if it goes on! :)
We ran into the opposing problem with Starcraft: The board game:
The team with the weakest player would lose most of the time.
But can't you just pair skilled and unskilled players together (although it might not be politically correct to do so).

How is Clash of Culture?

What I miss in Eclipse is the lack of hidden information except for victory tiles. I miss the combat card hands of Starcraft and Game of Thrones and the resulting mind games.

Btw, Starcraft has been my goto team game for years until it was dethroned by Quartermaster General because the later is much faster (2h vs 4h).
I completely forgot to add it.

It doesn't have much in the way of exploration, as all tiles are revealed from the beginning, but it has an important expansion phase.
It uses a convoluted action stack system (which makes it terribly n00b unfriendly), but rewards aggression.
The first phase of the game is rush or expansion (depending on how you sit on your starting set up, rushing to destroy a player by the end of turn 2 is feasible).
Then players will tech and consolidate, and wear each other out until one player bites the dust (the team that is down 1 player will usually resign at this point).
What I like in the game is that the tech deck captures the feel of the units pretty well, and the card system represents attrition convincingly (you need to use tech orders to draw combat cards to replace the ones you used. When you are out of cards, you are forced to top deck).
But due to licensing issues, the games is not in print anymore and can only be purchased on ebay.
It has a 40K successor; Forbidden Stars that was also discontinued due to licensing issues.
FS is much more n00b friendly, but has less depth.

Starcraft

pic2077169_lg.jpg


pic2710641_md.jpg

^ he, I think I would like TI more if the military element was toned down or removed completely and the game was almost only about exploration and politics.

EDIT: The core elements of exploring hexes and negotiating policies is always immensely enjoyable to me, at least.
The problem is that it combat is long for very little interesting decisions to make.
 
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Snorkack

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Scythe. It's basically the opposite of TI when it comes to 4x's. Quick setup, quick games, seemingly simplistic yet it has incredible tactical depth. The eXploration part is rather small, apart from that I guess it qualifies as 4x.
It has become my group's default go-to choice when there's not enough time for a round of Eclipse.
 

Azalin

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Isn't Exodus Proxima Centauri basically a lighter version of TI in case someone doesn't feel like playing a 6 hour long game?
 

Leechmonger

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Galdred Clash of Cultures is about as long as Eclipse, but isn't as satisfying an experience. The expansion might help with that, but I've never tried it.

Missiles in vanilla Eclipse aren't nearly as OP as people usually claim, and the expansion weakened them far too much.
 

Matalarata

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the expansion weakened them far too much.

Eh, they are still a nice tech under the right circumstances... For example, take it as your only warfare tech and you'll discourage early aggression, up to some point. They are almost pointless after turn 4-5 though, and I never wait for a science discount to buy them.

So, get them when turtling and get them early. They are still far more common than flux (their hard counter) so you aren't gimping yourself too much. I also find them useful for the last round or two, when everyone pushes for targets of opportunity and those last points. They still front load a lot of damage, if you don't care about your fleet (last round, last actions) they allow for wild swinging of the board. They are still easily countered by just brain and math but I love how useful PlasMis are to punish fleeting attention in the end game.
 
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Leechmonger

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the expansion weakened them far too much.

Eh, they are still a nice tech under the right circumstances... For example, take it as your only warfare tech and you'll discourage early aggression, up to some point. They are almost pointless after turn 4-5 though, and I never wait for a science discount to buy them.

So, get them when turtling and get them early. They are still far more common than flux (their hard counter) so you aren't gimping yourself too much. I also find them useful for the last round or two, when everyone pushes for targets of oppurtunity and those last points. They still front load a lot of damage, if you don't care about your fleet (last round, last actions) they allow for wild swinging of the board. They are still easily countered by just brain and math but I love how useful PlasMis are to punish fleeting attention in the end game.

The problem is you're avoiding fighting in the initial turns when the VP rewards are highest, and engaging in it later when they're lowest. Likewise, lategame you don't want to just destroy enemy ships: you want to capture/protect key hexes worth lots of points. And then of course there's the fact that if Flux comes out, you either waste science getting it yourself or allow someone else to have extreme leverage over you.

I certainly disliked the rock paper scissors way teching worked in vanilla Eclipse, but the expansions "fixed" by the problem by making PM nigh unusable.
 

Matalarata

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The problem is you're avoiding fighting in the initial turns when the VP rewards are highest

Don't think so. PlasMis are gud vs ancients and if you are avoiding a fight it means you're going for a builder strat. Perfectly doable with just missiles...

and engaging in it later when they're lowest

Misconception, imho. When I was speaking about lower attention span that's what I meant. If you left undefended hexes a single interceptor can output enough damage to take that sector and flip it, and you cand send more than one. Once you'll start looking at things this way you'll notice how many undefendend points are left when everyone goes for the juiciest targets... That's the only way I manage to win using Eridani for example, by being a douche that last turn! Admittedly, you can pull this off better with anything bar Eridani :lol:

Likewise, lategame you don't want to just destroy enemy ships: you want to capture/protect key hexes worth lots of points

Yep! Exactly! PlasMis aren't good for conquest early on because they lack staying power, but that last turn? You need a single ship standing to either flip the hex (if you have the actions obv) or just eat some points off a rival. And destroying key players pts is as good as gaining them. Situational I know, but again PlasMis are a defensive tech imho, the fact they can give you an extra oomph in the end is just a plus!

And then of course there's the fact that if Flux comes out

And how many flux tiles are there exactly? How many opponents can sport flux at the same time? And how many times you are a valid target for said players? After all the % are calculated I'd say it's a worthy gamble, again under the right circumstance, they are niche!

but the expansions "fixed" by the problem by making PM nigh unusable

Try it, it's free! People stopped using them here too, then they were reintroduced in our little meta after all I said before was taken into consideration. They see fairly regular use now, I'd say one out of 3 games someone always has them.
 

Galdred

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Has someone tested Space Empire 4x?
It seems to have insane book keeping (that scream for a companion app), but the elements of deceptions seem pretty cool(your ships are face down counters until you meet an opponent, your purchased techs remain hidden too until contact).
Also, Space Empires 4 was one of my prefered MP 4x on PC.
 

Galdred

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There is a thread about it on reddit with a summary:

This list was last updated @~180 comments. If you have a new game to talk about not already listed here, please comment directly so ill be notified! :)

Super edit: Holy moly, alright. Since I was going to do this for myself anyway, I'll compile a list here with short tidbits about the games everyone has mentioned so far. As these are just footnotes, feel free to see more in-depth explanations from the comments below if you see something you're interested in. Thank you so much everyone!

4X: A genre where you can win through 1 of 4 conditions: eXplore, eXterminate, eXploit, or eXpand. They are usually heavy on strategy, with some very similar to RTS style video games.

Archipelago: Does a great job with 3 X's, but not exterminate. Some debate whether it is semi-cooperative, even though it says it right there on page 5.

Clash of cultures: most closely resembles the civilization PC series. An extensive game that plays very well, though some say only if you have the variety provided by the expansion, which is now out of print.

Dominant species: Play as animals trying to dominate the landscape. Includes elements within the game not often seen elsewhere.

Forbidden stars: gives special importance to exterminent. Part of the 40k brand. Works well here because of objectives on the board itself, giving obvious meaning to who you attack instead of it feeling personal.

Eclipse: seems to have a luck element involved with exploration, and is light on integrated political strategy (tricking players on your own, but not utilizing elements within the game itself). Utilizes economical limitations. is otherwise a favorite of many.

Empires of the void 2: recently seen at gencon. High theme and gameplay, many important choices to make. Lots of combat, despite not being exactly eXtermination. Plays in 2 hours or less.

The golden ages: minimalist game with tight ruleset and important choices to make. Not quite exterminate, so more euro-y. Art has a "charm" to it. Thematically sound.

Impulse: space 4X game that can be finish in about an hour

Mage wars: bit of a reach, as you control a hero and not a nation. But most definitely fits many of the X's. I have this game and love it myself, definitely work checking out.

Master of the galaxy: up on kickstarter

New dawn: Not as sprawling as twilight imperium, but has a similar feel.

Rune wars: game seems to move in seasons, with your hero able directly become involved in combat. Also something about having to collect runes and protect certain territory in order to win. Revised edition clears up rules.

Sid meier's civilization + A new dawn: good tech trees, combat does not use dice. Some say you can get lucky going one path and seemingly shut down another player on their path. New dawn is a new game just recently announced

Space empire: you are able to hide your units/upgrades through fog of war, making scouting a very important element in the game, which actually sounds quite interesting. Recently got a new print run.

Twilight emperium: Regarded by some as the epitome of 4X. Perhaps light on exploration, but heavy in the other X's. Game sessions Can last 5-8 hours depending on number of players and experience, but can be well worth the time spent.

Xia - legends of a drift system: agreed below to only fulfill eXploration, but including it here because it sounds really interesting. Has a pick up and deliver system with objectives
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I had my first game of Space Empires 4x.
It does feature a lot of book keeping indeed, byt no more than what you usually fit on your RPG character sheet (you have to write down technologies purchased and expenses, as well as ship experience in the expansion).
Not knowing what your opponent is capable of until you meet him is quite awesome. I lost my game because my opponent had developed movement tech and I had no idea he was so advanced in this field, even though I sacrificed scouts to scan his fleet (because he did not upgrade his ships before he had fully teched movement). When he revealed that his ships were able to move 2 hex/turn instead of 1, my superior fleet was out of position to prevent him from razing 3 of my colonies, and I conceded.
I had developed the minefield technology, but I should have bought decoys to make the mine locations less obvious.

Not knowing about your opponent is something I missed a lot in Eclipse.
The cost is a high fiddliness factor (lots ot counters to keep track of, that need to be moved facedown so that your opponent doesn't know what you are moving).

Regarding team games, I guess one way to go about it is to have the first game with AB vs CD, then pair A with D and C with B, then pair the player who lost both games with the one who won both.
 

Temesis

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Not sure if mentioned, but there will be 2nd edition of Eclipse out next year with much cooler components, some new mechanics and improvements.
 

Galdred

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I played two more games of Space Empires 4X, and I think it is my preferred long 2vs2 game for now (Nexus Ops, Quartermaster General, and Summoner Wars remain great when time is an issue).
You can usually recover from your mistake. And scouting usually allows you to avoid making these.
I lost both of them:
In the first one, I sent a raiding fleet towards one of my opponents system, but I was unable to do much damage as I had to avoid his larger fleets (as not all of my ships had a high enough movement technology level to take part in the raid). My opponents both had a warp point leading to my border, so they were able to combine fleet after I managed to pull mine back from the opponent system. I could only afford one base on one of my 2 threatened planets, so I put a base on one, and a decoy on the other one.
It kind of worked, as they assumed the decoy was a base, but that only made them send even more ships in my direction, and my decoy + fleet could not handle both of them, so I was down 2 colonies while my ally had trouble getting through the defenses of one of our opponents, and we had to give up.
In the second game, we played with empire advantages, and I picked the one that gives your fleet a bonus if you outnumber the opponent, but my ally was eager to launch a surprise attack with his racial allowing him to ignore black holes and supernovae during movement.
Unfortunately, he surprised a carrier fleet while his fleet had no point defense and was mauled to the last scout ship. I had to rush with my point defense force to his aid, leaving a decoy fleet to protect my left flank, but I was facing both opponents at the same time once again. I managed to destroy all of the fighters, and inflict some damage but my fleet got destroyed in the process by the remaining battlecruisers and cruisers. This allowed my partner to rebuild his fleet, but we were down a lot technologically and economically, so we had to give up this one too.
 

Galdred

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The concept is great however the people who play these games are wretched scum. That's why I stick to wargaming these days.
It should not be too hard to sell it to wargamer given that it is a hex and counter game, and the only win condition is razing someone else's homeworld.
pic1512761_md.jpg
 

Matalarata

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So, those magnificient bastards I call friends irl decided I had to have a surprise party and a present for my 38th birthday. Like any sane human being would ever rejoice of being 38. What a lousy age, 38.

I've been gifted Terraforming Mars but due to stupid annoyances of life like, having to work, eat, provide for personal hygiene and one very importand Dominions 5 game ongoing, it still lies unopened after almost one week.
I generally don't like worker placement games and non-aleatory games need to be good to keep me entertained for more than a couple games. That said, this one has cards which bring an element of randomness and from what I've been able to see from a quick youtube video, even if it's a stereotypical Eurodork game, there's a strong Ameritrash feel (which I like!).
Imho boardgames need to have flavor, if the rulebook states I'm a corporate cyberagent but all I do is play an auction game for drug deals, muh immershun is broken (I'm looking at you Infamy :argh:)
This one seems like it possesses those sweet immersion juices and a great fluctuation in possible outcomes, due to some cards being quite strong, in the right circumstances.

Any Kodexian bro feels like sharing his monocled opinion, before I open my present and once again think that 38 is a very, very lousy age?
 
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