What did New Vegas DO WRONG? / Would isometric New Vegas with finished content be GOAT?

[Sigourn]

The fuck up is Obsidian's. A Perk that requires a 70 to achieve has a recipe that only requires 50 in Repair. It doesn't make an sense. It can be argued that "well, then make those recipes require 70 Repair instead", but when you look at the progression chart you realize it makes more sense to drop down the level of Repair, because you are making fairly simple and common bullets, as opposed to the much rarer .44.

We went through this, the recipes have indivual, handpicked Repair-requirements. 70 Repair was a dev oversight.
You got any actual examples of malicious gameplay tweaks in YUP?

This is exactly was I talking about, so I am stressing my point one last time, and I don't think I will need to make point clearer after that. You guys are so clueless, that you think you can actually judge what's going on in the game and in the code, while you have absolutely no idea what is going on. This is, of course, my personal opinion of your ability to understand the game. Either I am clueless or you are, and I will let everyone decide for themselves.

You are not wrong in that we decide what we think is best for the game (by saying YUP did nothing wrong), but it's also clueless to think that "how it shipped" means "how it is supposed to be". Bugs are just one of many ways a game can be flawed. Inconsistencies and oversights are another way: some may be blatantly obvious. Others, not so much. But I applaud YUP for deciding to correct these.

 

[aweigh]

Dude, just going thru all game loot-containers and enemy inventories alone is like, 10 million man-hours. But you CAN use global value flags, for example you actually CAN very easily make "this type of container in this cell" (sadly not ALL of the type, restricted per cell, but still)--

--make them all have the spawn % chance that you decide/enter in the GECK and it applies to the container type in that cell. I mean, otherwise no modder would have ever made all those many mods that affect scarcity... would've been literally too much work.

There is also a fully-working pseudo-toolkit for hacking in dialog and quests, which is what was used by the modders who added the Vegas Bounties 1, 2, and 3 mods and added those quests, with proper questing texts and NPCs with actual dialog (not talking about the writing quality, mind you).

I never looked into that but I imagine it can't be that hard, I assume it just requires putting in a ton of hours into making your NPC(s) and making your "area" / "building" space where your NPC will spout your dialog which will trigger the quest and that in turn will trigger the spawning of whatever the fuck.

One can even just re-purpose an existing area and not even bother learning how to make buildings and making them exist without glitches in a game cell; an example being that time when that mod that added things like Bridges and shit to existing places, they forgot to implement the navmeshes so NPCs were walking off them all day and committing sudoku.

 

[Trashos]

BTW, coming back to F:NV "tweaks and thaaangs" discussion:

- it is absolutely ridiculous that Repair is not only mostly superfluous but that they pay-walled one of the game's best perks, Jury-Rigging, behind a sky-high Repair requirement.

Getting JR perk is the only reason for an optimized min-mazimized baron von munchkin to even consider pumping Repair so high, and JR is indeed completely "OP" (in the sense that it is so good and its benefit is so far-reaching that it is inarguably a 'must-have', with the only reason for not going for JR perk is because the player is intentionally playing sub-optimally for enjoyment/entertainment).

That always bugged me.

JR is very nice to have, but I do not consider it a must-have (although I usually grab it). Anyway, it is 20 points more than Hand Loader, which is 20 points more than the repair kit requirement, so the progression is kinda natural, and it's not that bad for a Guns build. There are also some bullet recipes with high Repair requirement, IIRC (the ranger sequoia?). For energy builds, yes, it's a pain. But C&C and all that, if you want it, you have to suffer for it.

 

[aweigh]

The main issue is that FNV doesn't really need much of anything, and we all know it. It's a GREAT game, very mechanically solid, logically (in the computer sense) made and very much coherent, and not in the writing or crafts sense; coherent in that it's a game where all of its mechanical systems almost perfectly dovetail into each other, with rarely one sub-system or tertiary mechanic capable of existing in a vaccum, instead almost everything that happens in FNV, everything you do or is done to you, is almost always derived from its core foundation.

This force of professionalism even got as far as the actual GECK/game modding kit! When you analyze the GECK and how it's made in order to allow non-devs/programmers to actually mod the game you realize that the GECK itself is structured around the concepts of:

- Factions
- Interconnectivity
- A clear seperation in the kit between:

a) Items
b) Characters/NPCs
c) Cells

When you are editing something in the GECK you have to take every single detail into account, for example if you make NCR troopers more powerful, more aggressive, they will possibly over-power Legion soldiers and create a situation inside the game that was not intended.

A simple example, I know, basic stuff, but it shows how much thought they put into this turkey. Compared to NWN2's dumpster fire of a Modding Kit...

 

[aweigh]

Hehe, one can't forget they let you craft TURBO mid-game or so. Now that's what I call game balance!

 

[Trashos]

You also get a Turbo perk later (Implant GRX). I gladly take it, because it is life-saving in Dead Money.

 

[aweigh]

Sure, I'm not trying to posit that Obsidian is legit bad at itemization and balance, on the contrary I think they're actually getting better (though PoE 2 remains to be seen); I just generally don't enjoy too much of clearly good stuff with the caveat that that is so but only when the game clearly demonstrates a lot good design in every other area.

TL;DR I'm no dummy I know casual maroons fucking love always getting drip-fed constantly-more-powerful items that are so ridiculously good it is genuinely mysterious to myself how these players can say "I like this new stuff! It's so good!!!!!" and manage to not spare an actual moment to discern the relationship between games, difficulty, and the inherent psychological premise in video game that constitutes different types of achievements.

Look at PoE 2 recently, those Deadfire items are beyond stupid over-powered, and there is literally no reason to need them or use them, and instead of wanting those items I (and I know many others) think: could they have instead contributed something more creative, something which would allow a new perspective on an existing mechanic or something even smarter than that?

Sure, obviously this ain't zero-sum bullshit, I know one thing doesn't mean another thing ain't a thing. Another recent example for me was Elminage: Gothic's 3DS port where they added tons of new items, but 95% of them are greatly over-powered, do too much damage, give too many bonuses, and most egregious: they fuck up the absolutely perfect itemization design and power progression of Elminage Gothic because you start finding these new 3DS-port weapons/armors/etc as soon as the 3rd dungeon.

It's incredibly disappointing because it is automatically content that I cannot enjoy and cannot make use of as it would denigrate not just my personal enjoyment of the game(s), but it also denigrates the meticulous itemization and encounter design in the game and the extremely solid "power curve" or "power progression" for the player.

Anyway, in both of these examples (well, in FNV/E: Gothic examples), ultimately the later addition of over-powered items is superfluous to these games body of work; they do not detract from the sum of their parts, and they definitely do not "ruin" anything: I think as long as the game/RPG in question is already well designed, going nuts with post-release / re-release ports and "power creep" is fine; I'm well aware nobody is forcing anyone to play any which way, or to use X or Y or Z.

 

[aweigh]

Guys. I downloaded a bunch of random sounding mods, but hey, look:

How can go wrong with this very highbrow list? :D

I'll be sure to post how much framerate rap I get: I'm not only using two mods that open up all of freeside/the strip (they compliment each other, and one of the two goes and adds a bunch of random builkdings just to kill off those last 2 fps you were having); but also found surprisingly a "generalized" Open and Uncut - Wasteland, suppposedly it does things like remove all barriers (this has been done previously), restore misc. content to, i.e. he reintroduced into the game areas a lot of hovels/shacks/nondescript buildings that were cut from the game because they almost 100% certainly did not add anything of value and served only to clog up the game world / kill frame-rate... but hey now they're back so I'll make sure to use my Enhanced Ragdoll, dismembering, bigger blood spatters and IMPACT FORCE mods to make sure those knaves meet their maker, hopefully in slow mo while ragdolling.

(which reminds me, is there a legit MAX PAYNE 2 slow-mo mod for FNV? Cos I want that now. I want THAT. I already owned every single grain of sand in the Mojave and did it right way; preferably and hopefully this slow mo mod I want will automatically trigger some terrible rock song like let the bodies hit the floor immediately upon activating the slow mo.

FINGERS CROSSED.

 

[ilitarist]

The main issue is that FNV doesn't really need much of anything, and we all know it. It's a GREAT game, very mechanically solid, logically (in the computer sense) made and very much coherent, and not in the writing or crafts sense; coherent in that it's a game where all of its mechanical systems almost perfectly dovetail into each other, with rarely one sub-system or tertiary mechanic capable of existing in a vaccum, instead almost everything that happens in FNV, everything you do or is done to you, is almost always derived from its core foundation.

I'm very much surprised seeing you saying this, especially with your love for blobbers which are aiming at elegenat complete design.

You yourself mention uselessness of Caravan, but besides that there's so much in this game that just plain doesn't work or useless or underused. Skills like Survival or Unarmed that are mostly used. Crafting system that is incredibly complex and almost useless - even Fallout 4 is better as it's both easier to use and there are compelling reasons too. Underused faction armor system.

As for PoE2. First, we can only speculate as for how much those items are really overpowered before we actually play the game. Second, you are probably right as they're overreacting to a very legit criticism of PoE1 boring equipment. White March had already done that: all those cool artifacts redefined party building, I think the right play would be to reroll your characters to focus on a specific soulbond equipment. Not that I complain, I think WM1&2 has the best handling of equipment in RPGs: you use soulbound stuff and upgrade normal weapons with scarce resources in magical blacksmith thing. Too bad there was still all that crafting upgrade thing from original game, I hope they ditch it for PoE2 or at least make it convenient.

 

[Trashos]

...

Unless they have already been included in tools/mods you are using, also check out the 4GB (more use of memory in modern systems- you are definitely gonna need that with the open-region mods you are using) and the anti-crush (corrects some memory allocation bugs, and thus reduces crushes) mods. Eg, my game was crushing around the Wolfhorn Ranch region until i used the latter.

 

[Sigourn]

Guys. I downloaded a bunch of random sounding mods, but hey, look:

How can go wrong with this very highbrow list? :D

FLVJOD, for instance. Nothing may happen, but I would never recommend those mods to anyone: they just so happen to be mods that take place in a very complex section of the game, which also happens to be a vital section of the game, so you never know when anything may go to shit, and once it goes to shit, it stays that way, fucking up your save forever.

(which reminds me, is there a legit MAX PAYNE 2 slow-mo mod for FNV? Cos I want that now. I want THAT. I already owned every single grain of sand in the Mojave and did it right way; preferably and hopefully this slow mo mod I want will automatically trigger some terrible rock song like let the bodies hit the floor immediately upon activating the slow mo.

FINGERS CROSSED.

Not really. There's this mod, but it's fake news: there's no such thing as "bullet time" in Bethesda games, since you can't see the bullets in order to dodge them.

 

[DragoFireheart]

The main issue is that FNV doesn't really need much of anything, and we all know it.

No, it needs a better game engine. The game engine it runs on is shit.

 

[Gimble]

Guys. I downloaded a bunch of random sounding mods, but hey, look:

Why are you using NMM? Mod organizer is much better and allows you to fool around with different mod configurations without breaking a working order - usually a laborious process with these games and the standard mod launchers.

No, it needs a better game engine. The game engine it runs on is shit.

Agreed. Whenever it is time for a fresh New Vegas playthrough, I have to reserve a few extra hours to figure out the unofficial patches & mods needed + testing to make sure they all run well together.

 

[Gimble]

is there a legit MAX PAYNE 2 slow-mo mod for FNV?

I played the game with the Project Nevada mod a couple of years back, which allows you to spend action points for a bullet time slow mo mode. It is fully configurable, and generally becomes a much better alternative to the overpowered VATS mode, and makes action points worthwhile. It works when sniping as well.

It also includes a sprint mode (consumes AP).

The mod allows configuring a lower level cap, less kill XP, less/more dialogue XP, less or more perks, etc. Also provides options for stats to have more or less meaningful effects (example, make health a function of END alone, remove/reduce HP per level, AGL action point gain, less/more skill points per INT, STR carryweght and so on).

 

[Drax]

I never understood all the hate for Project Nevada when almost 100% of it's features are configurable...

 

[Gimble]

I never understood all the hate for Project Nevada when almost 100% of it's features are configurable...

Yes. One issue with New Vegas is that it is possible to max out all skills for pretty much any build with the XP/level cap available in the game. The mod provides an option to change that to your liking - reduced XP, reduced skill gains, even the option to change skill tag behavior to work like fallout 2 to make really specialized characters. The re-balance changes affects enemies as well (and is a way to remove level scaled HP bloat from enemies, if you so choose). For eg: with this, it is possible to tweak things so that you can't hit the level cap and/or can't maximize more than 4/5 skills in a full playthrough, forcing actual distinction among character builds possible over the course of the game.

It does not play well with other mods that tweak some of these settings though, and if you want that mod's features more.... then the alternative approach is to use xEdit to change all the settings for a similar effect with other mods.

 

[Sigourn]

I never understood all the hate for Project Nevada when almost 100% of it's features are configurable...

Project Nevada Core is like that. The rest of the modules, not so much.

 

[Gimble]

I never understood all the hate for Project Nevada when almost 100% of it's features are configurable...

Project Nevada Core is like that. The rest of the modules, not so much.

Have you actually tried it? Not just core, but the 'Rebalance' module is fully configurable (even down to loot distribution) and there is a separate module that enables extra options (which, among other things IIRC, help customize how effective the slomo, sprint features are). All other additions from the mod can be safely ignored.

It will (naturally) conflict with other mods that alter the same settings - in this case you use xedit to configure whatever you need.

 

[Drax]

Which modules, AFAIR almost everything is either tweakable or "toggleable".

edit: ninjas from space.

 

[Sigourn]

Have you actually tried it? Not just core, but the 'Rebalance' module is fully configurable (even down to loot distribution) and there is a separate module that enables extra options (which, among other things IIRC, help customize how effective the slomo, sprint features are). All other additions from the mod can be safely ignored.

It will (naturally) conflict with other mods that alter the same settings - in this case you use xedit to configure whatever you need.

Yeah, that's the problem. Some of the coolest Project Nevada features are locked behind that Rebalance module whose settings you can't deactivate at all. Which means you are forced to dig through xEdit to try and match Project Nevada's values to whatever mod setup you are using, which is a huge pain in the ass.

 

[Gimble]

Have you actually tried it? Not just core, but the 'Rebalance' module is fully configurable (even down to loot distribution) and there is a separate module that enables extra options (which, among other things IIRC, help customize how effective the slomo, sprint features are). All other additions from the mod can be safely ignored.

It will (naturally) conflict with other mods that alter the same settings - in this case you use xedit to configure whatever you need.

Yeah, that's the problem. Some of the coolest Project Nevada features are locked behind that Rebalance module whose settings you can't deactivate at all. Which means you are forced to dig through xEdit to try and match Project Nevada's values to whatever mod setup you are using, which is a huge pain in the ass.

Why use a major rebalance together with another mod that tweaks these aspects as well? That's a recipe for wasting time resolving conflicts. Use one of them only + xedit to get other settings you really need to alter.

 

[Sigourn]

Why use a major rebalance together with another mod that tweaks these aspects as well? That's a recipe for wasting time resolving conflicts. Use one of them only + xedit to get other settings you really need to alter.

I think a better question is "why group the "Bypass DT on headshot" feature in the rebalance mod as opposed to adding it to the Core module?". The Project Nevada authors went full retard by doing that, it is easily my favorite feature of PN, but confining it to the Rebalance module was a huge mistake.

I only use the core module alongside other rebalance mods.

 

[Gimble]

Which modules, AFAIR almost everything is either tweakable or "toggleable".

When you activate PN rebalance, while every setting can be individually tweaked, they cannot individually be toggled off completely to be replaced by another mod's value for the same setting. If you want to work around that, you have to play around with xedit.

 

[Gimble]

I only use the core module alongside other rebalance mods.

Sure. Nobody claimed there is only one solution to correct NV's shortcomings in these areas. It is completely possible to get a 'hardcore' experience any number of ways. You choose an appropriate subset of mods to set up the game the way you really want.

Project Nevada, much like other similar mod setups, also allows a 'hardcore' experience if you take the time to adjust the options accordingly.

 

[Drax]

Which modules, AFAIR almost everything is either tweakable or "toggleable".

When you activate PN rebalance, while every setting can be individually tweaked, they cannot individually be toggled off completely to be replaced by another mod's value for the same setting. If you want to work around that, you have to play around with xedit.

Oh, I see.
Still, given how configurable PN is, if you actually need to tweak something more, then you're better off making your own mod, imo.