KickStarter BATTLETECH - turn-based mech combat from Harebrained Schemes

[Spark Mandriller]

Let me clarify, I'm referring to it's use in-game. It's hot (literally) garbage, and the accuracy bonuses mean nothing when taking into account gunnery skills. LL's and PPC's are also bad because sight range is so short, and they generate truck loads of heat. I'm assuming it's not like that in the table top?

Yeah, pulse lasers suck in this due to a combination of nerfs to them and buffs to standard lasers. Standard lasers don't get an accuracy bonus in CBT, but now they do, so pulse lasers go from a lot more accurate than them to just a little more. Combine that with them making way more heat for no reason (in CBT a medium pulse laser is 33% hotter than a standard one, but in this it's double) and they're just a waste. It gets really bad when you compare them to + versions of standard lasers, since those can get accuracy or damage buffs to put them on the same level as pulse lasers, just without the extra weight and heat. They're a pathetic weapon.
ER larges didn't get hurt quite so hard, but they're still way too hot to be useful, especially since the range bonus in this isn't very important. And they have no + versions, so that sucks too.
One interesting thing is that if you look in the game files then apparently there are stats for ER mediums, too, even though they haven't been invented yet. I don't think they appear anywhere ingame though. And it doesn't matter because they're insanely hot because of course they are, so they suck too.

 

[Cael]

Let me clarify, I'm referring to it's use in-game. It's hot (literally) garbage, and the accuracy bonuses mean nothing when taking into account gunnery skills. LL's and PPC's are also bad because sight range is so short, and they generate truck loads of heat. I'm assuming it's not like that in the table top?

Yeah, pulse lasers suck in this due to a combination of nerfs to them and buffs to standard lasers. Standard lasers don't get an accuracy bonus in CBT, but now they do, so pulse lasers go from a lot more accurate than them to just a little more. Combine that with them making way more heat for no reason (in CBT a medium pulse laser is 33% hotter than a standard one, but in this it's double) and they're just a waste. It gets really bad when you compare them to + versions of standard lasers, since those can get accuracy or damage buffs to put them on the same level as pulse lasers, just without the extra weight and heat. They're a pathetic weapon.
ER larges didn't get hurt quite so hard, but they're still way too hot to be useful, especially since the range bonus in this isn't very important. And they have no + versions, so that sucks too.
One interesting thing is that if you look in the game files then apparently there are stats for ER mediums, too, even though they haven't been invented yet. I don't think they appear anywhere ingame though. And it doesn't matter because they're insanely hot because of course they are, so they suck too.

LosTech pulse lasers are absolute garbage even in TT. I didn't even think of them, so bad are they.

Take the Large version.
LL is 8 damage, 8 heat, 5 tons, 2 crits. Its range brackets are 1-5, 6-10, 11-15.
LPL is 9 damage, 10 heat, 7 tons, 2 crits. Its range brackets are 1-3, 4-7, 8-10. No seriously. 10 max range. It does have an innate bonus of 2 to-hit.
But here is the deal: You also get a bonus of 2 to-hit if you drop a range bracket. That means at range 4-5 and 8-10, you have the exact to-hit value for both LL and LPL. You only get an advantage with the LPL at 1-3 and 6-7, and in the meantime, the LL can still hit targets 11-15 away.

And you want to see a joke? The ERLL is 8 damage, 12 heat, 5 tons, 2 crits and range brackets 1-7, 8-14, 15-19. That's right. Its short range bracket covers the medium range bracket of the LPL. That means the LPL has no advantage over the ERLL unless you let the enemy close to within 3 hexes of you.

LosTech pulse lasers are absolute shit.

Unless you have a completely green rookie that can't hit the broad side of a barn and you want to send him charging at the enemy to fight in melee range. Then, you might have some use for LosTech pulse lasers.

 

[DiverNB]

I don't know if the HBS game implements minimum range restrictions, but the ER PPC in TT does not have a minimum range while the normal PPC does. Of course, it doesn't really matter if you have designed your 'mech's loadout for bracket fire. If the enemy is within the PPC's minimum range, you should have a battery of medium lasers to shred him for 50% more damage than the PPC can do and for less heat.
I repeat: HBS fucked the real BTech rules in the eye socket.

There are minimum range restrictions, but with the tactics tree you negate this entirely (IE you can fire your PPC point blank and do full damage, like an ER PPC)

It just baffles me that they left the weapons in such a mess. Not enough sight range to effectively use PPC's / LL's / AC2. Precision strike and knockdown make it not worth using anything beyond and AC20 and missiles, making these single hit heavy damage weapons useless (excluding AC20). I guess MLasers are decent too if you can boat enough. The recoil penalty could have been interesting but lol tactics tree.
Pretty let down, I expected more. They had all these weapons functioning in the beta and couldn't balance them in 6 months?

 

[Spark Mandriller]

LosTech pulse lasers are absolute garbage even in TT. I didn't even think of them, so bad are they.

He mentioned accuracy bonuses, so I think he was talking about them. But yeah, that's the thing. They're actually an even worse option in this game. In CBT you can at least use them on a super close range mech if you want (Wraith!). In this they're just completely shit. If you want better accuracy a medium laser + has that, just with half the weight and heat. Or a medium laser ++, which is actually more accurate.
That said, they did buff the ranges so they're identical to standard lasers in this. Just it wasn't anywhere near enough.

 

[DiverNB]

He mentioned accuracy bonuses, so I think he was talking about them. But yeah, that's the thing. They're actually an even worse option in this game. In CBT you can at least use them on a super close range mech if you want (Wraith!). In this they're just completely shit. If you want better accuracy a medium laser + has that, just with half the weight and heat. Or a medium laser ++, which is actually more accurate.
That said, they did buff the ranges so they're identical to standard lasers in this. Just it wasn't anywhere near enough.

See this is my problem. If everything had been straight copied over from TT rule sets there would at least be an explanation. "Ah, it's unbalanced as fuck because it's using TT values, and they wanted it to be just like actual BattleTech"
This is worse because they tried to "improve" the TT rules and failed hard. And since combat is the main focus of the game, who saw it and said "Eh, good enough"

 

[Cael]

I don't know if the HBS game implements minimum range restrictions, but the ER PPC in TT does not have a minimum range while the normal PPC does. Of course, it doesn't really matter if you have designed your 'mech's loadout for bracket fire. If the enemy is within the PPC's minimum range, you should have a battery of medium lasers to shred him for 50% more damage than the PPC can do and for less heat.
I repeat: HBS fucked the real BTech rules in the eye socket.

There are minimum range restrictions, but with the tactics tree you negate this entirely (IE you can fire your PPC point blank and do full damage, like an ER PPC)

It just baffles me that they left the weapons in such a mess. Not enough sight range to effectively use PPC's / LL's / AC2. Precision strike and knockdown make it not worth using anything beyond and AC20 and missiles, making these single hit heavy damage weapons useless (excluding AC20). I guess MLasers are decent too if you can boat enough. The recoil penalty could have been interesting but lol tactics tree.
Pretty let down, I expected more. They had all these weapons functioning in the beta and couldn't balance them in 6 months?

The whole skill tree nonsense is another way HBS screwed things up. They basically made it so that you can negate weapon drawbacks, which is a fucking stupid thing to do when you are trying to make a tactics game. It basically took out a chunk of tactical considerations straight out of the game.

And they have form in doing this. Melee combat had large chunks of tactical considerations taken out of it. Called shots made tactical considerations like crit seeking a memory, not to mention negating the impact of heavy weapons like the AC20, amongst a myriad of other things. Lack of space to manouevre means things like hit and runs and long range weapons are a memory. Taking out movement based to-hit penalties means that speed is no longer a tactical consideration and that lighter 'mechs become useless pretty fast. Taking out cost of ammo and repairs eliminated a massive chunk of strategic and tactical considerations.

At every turn, HBS has reduced tactical considerations. And they claim they are trying to make a tactics game. What a joke.

 

[Cael]

LosTech pulse lasers are absolute garbage even in TT. I didn't even think of them, so bad are they.

He mentioned accuracy bonuses, so I think he was talking about them. But yeah, that's the thing. They're actually an even worse option in this game. In CBT you can at least use them on a super close range mech if you want (Wraith!). In this they're just completely shit. If you want better accuracy a medium laser + has that, just with half the weight and heat. Or a medium laser ++, which is actually more accurate.
That said, they did buff the ranges so they're identical to standard lasers in this. Just it wasn't anywhere near enough.

Making those ++ weapons was just stupid as hell for many, many reasons, the chief of which is that it restricts tactical and strategic considerations.

 

[DiverNB]

LosTech pulse lasers are absolute garbage even in TT. I didn't even think of them, so bad are they.

He mentioned accuracy bonuses, so I think he was talking about them. But yeah, that's the thing. They're actually an even worse option in this game. In CBT you can at least use them on a super close range mech if you want (Wraith!). In this they're just completely shit. If you want better accuracy a medium laser + has that, just with half the weight and heat. Or a medium laser ++, which is actually more accurate.
That said, they did buff the ranges so they're identical to standard lasers in this. Just it wasn't anywhere near enough.

Making those ++ weapons was just stupid as hell for many, many reasons, the chief of which is that it restricts tactical and strategic considerations.

Question, how does TT handle knockdown? Do all mechs have an equal chance of getting knocked down?

 

[Bohr]

Sadly these may be drying up now

 

[Cael]

Question, how does TT handle knockdown? Do all mechs have an equal chance of getting knocked down?

In a word, yes.

There isn't really knockdown in TT, at least not the way you think. What happens is that certain actions by you or the enemy triggers a Piloting roll and if you fail that, down you go.

If you run up and down elevations, you make a Piloting roll.
You do a charge or a DFA, both you and your target make a Piloting roll.
If you take 20 points of damage in a round from enemy fire, you make a Piloting roll. Doesn't matter what weapons hit you. This is probably closest to what you are thinking in terms of knockdown.

These are the most common reasons for Piloting rolls. Note that 'mech type or weight is irrelevant.

 

[DiverNB]

Question, how does TT handle knockdown? Do all mechs have an equal chance of getting knocked down?

In a word, yes.

There isn't really knockdown in TT, at least not the way you think. What happens is that certain actions by you or the enemy triggers a Piloting roll and if you fail that, down you go.

If you run up and down elevations, you make a Piloting roll.
You do a charge or a DFA, both you and your target make a Piloting roll.
If you take 20 points of damage in a round from enemy fire, you make a Piloting roll. Doesn't matter what weapons hit you. This is probably closest to what you are thinking in terms of knockdown.

These are the most common reasons for Piloting rolls. Note that 'mech type or weight is irrelevant.

Got it. How common / tough are these piloting rolls to pass? I always enjoyed putting a mech on it's ass in Mech Commander. Or getting a pilot head shot and not seeing an ejection

 

[Taskityo]

And Marco Mazzoni: Tripod 'mechs? Really???

That's a Quad if you look closely. Although, Tripodal were canonized. Looks sort of like its a K-3N-KR4 Kiso IndustrialMech.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Took my shitty mechs armed with peashooters to an assassination mission that turned out to have orion + 2 kintaros + 2 locusts. Shit was pretty rough especially one of those fucking locusts that just refused to die - I think I reduced it to 15 TOTAL armour integrity, shot out one of its arms, one leg, both side torsos, and the fucker was still prancing about tickling me with its two lazers.

Although that mission also kind of really showed how tarded the AI is in this game. There's a kintaro next to my downed shadowhawk with multiple armour breaches and the driver at 1 wound left. All it had to do was stomp it to death... instead it sensor locked the inconsequential, full hp vindicator across the entire battlefield

And then when I finally got rid of the orion's buddies, I just kept jump-jetting in circles all around it, just outside its FOV, peppering it with missiles until I could deliver the killing called shot on its guns. In some way, it actually felt kind of cool/funny and reflected that the orion is a superslow heavy, but on the other hand, it was rather... tarded in practice.

 

[Cael]

Got it. How common / tough are these piloting rolls to pass? I always enjoyed putting a mech on it's ass in Mech Commander. Or getting a pilot head shot and not seeing an ejection

Depends on what you are trying to do and the condition of your 'mech.

Here is a list of modifiers. Bottom half of page

 

[Cael]

That's a Quad if you look closely. Although, Tripodal were canonized. Looks sort of like its a K-3N-KR4 Kiso IndustrialMech.

Tripods were canonised... in the Jihad era. Not 3025. And the Jihad isn't CBT. It is motherfucking Dark Age. Fuck Dark Age.

 

[Darth Roxor]

also while the debug 5x turbo mode didnt work for me, setting all animation delays to 0 was an acceptable ersatz

thx agris

 

[Cael]

Although that mission also kind of really showed how tarded the AI is in this game. There's a kintaro next to my downed shadowhawk with multiple armour breaches and the driver at 1 wound left. All it had to do was stomp it to death... instead it sensor locked the inconsequential, full hp vindicator across the entire battlefield

That might be deliberate. They have done just about everything else to prevent you losing pilots. Why not this as well?

 

[agris]

Kalarion Darth Roxor Bohr D_X and any others playing this

Drop this tool in your BATTLETECH folder and run it, you can set the multiplier for all movement - mechs, APCs, everything. I'm playing at 150%, and I think you could go to 175% easily without it feeling like Benny Hill. Edit: it modifies all 53 .json files in the movement folder, so you don't have to. There are no other ramifications for this either, no sped up sounds, you don't gain evasion faster, nothing else.

 

[Cael]

But Benny Hill is great! Yakkety Sax is an all time classic :D

Hmm... The HBS game crossed over with Benny Hill would be an absolute delight, come to think of it. Especially if you get them ramming into each other all the time...

 

[Alienman]

It's like watching old people dance.

 

[Cael]

It's like watching old people dance.

That is why you need that speed module.

 

[Morkar Left]

But Benny Hill is great! Yakkety Sax is an all time classic :D

Hmm... The HBS game crossed over with Benny Hill would be an absolute delight, come to think of it. Especially if you get them ramming into each other all the time...

Spoiler

With some practice this could be funny. They should start a boy mechgroup.

 

[Taskityo]

Tripods were canonised... in the Jihad era. Not 3025. And the Jihad isn't CBT. It is motherfucking Dark Age. Fuck Dark Age.

Ok? Doesn't change that that picture (from that e-book) is definitely a Quad, not a Tripod. And regardless, all of BattleTech, and yes the Jihad and Dark Age are "canon" and happened, while also introducing more people to BT at that time. Everything is currently moving past 3145 in the time line with the as yet unreleased "ilKhan"-Era that's supposed to be released at some point, who knows when.

 

[Cael]

Ok? Doesn't change that that picture (from that e-book) is definitely a Quad, not a Tripod. And regardless, all of BattleTech, and yes the Jihad and Dark Age are "canon" and happened, while also introducing more people to BT at that time. Everything is currently moving past 3145 in the time line with the as yet unreleased "ilKhan"-Era that's supposed to be released at some point, who knows when.

That is like saying DnD 4.0 is DnD. Or Pagan is Ultima8.

I don't think I need to iterate further the fuckwittery that you are advocating.

 

[Darth Roxor]

one-hit-kill lol

firestarter with 6 flammorz is officially the most hilarious shit ever