101 ways to rule the world with Alchemy!

[Vault Dweller]

We've had a heated internal discussion dedicated to Alchemy, and I've decided to share some thoughts with you and see what you think. Anyway....

Alchemy, an often boring and redundant art of fixing potions. How to make it more interesting? How to make it appealing to various demographics from mad scientists to dumb fighters? Here is what I think.

A) It should be interactive - use poison on your dagger, use greek fire on your blade to get a flaming sword, throw greek fire bomb at your enemies to damage them AND to make a small fire barrier, use acid on locks and enemies armor, use nitroglycerin to blow things up, etc

B) It should help you solve quests and progress like any other useful skill does.

C) It should have disadvantages and side effects (i.e. you need to open a door leading to a passage, you blow it up, the passage collapses. Or you go berserk after drinking some mushroom potion, cut your enemies to pieces, but while the effect lasts, you are unable to think clearly and get only aggressive, confrontational responses)

So, first, what do you think, and second, what alchemy applications would you like to see in games? What's appropriate for a fantasy rpg? What's too much?

 

[Naked_Lunch]

You should have an Ultima like-system I.e regeants and such. Make as much as you can in the world interactive and such for use in alchemy, example: You're an assassin, and you need to do a hit in some mansion. Bake some bread and then mix in some posion or such and sneak in (or steal a servant's outfit) and serve the tainted bread, killing your mark and sucessfully completing the mission.

 

[Fez]

For the first part, I like the idea. The interactivity and use on solving quests will make the skill something you'd want to choose and develop. It also makes sense that it should have disadvantages and side effects if you use it for opening doors with explosives or melting locks, as that will make it seem like it is a unique skill and choice, with its own paths and results, rather than just lock picking by another name. It would make it a matter of evaluating risk - or if you have no alternative - a moment of desperation. It would add to the immersion and role-playing aspect.

I like the idea of being able to choose between blowing the doors off or being stealthy and picking the lock. The example can be extanded to other things, such as the one given by Naked_Lunch, which reminds me of the Arcanum quest in Tarant where you could sneak in by the sewers into the storage area and dress up as servants to avoid the guards.

As for what is appropriate for a fantasy RPG, as long as you avoid anything which pushes it towards steampunk or sci-fi, you should be fine. I'd like to be able to poison a well with a carcass or chemical. Throwning burning oil to make a barrier in a corridor would be a great way to aid an escape, or hold back a charge.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I like the idea of being able to choose between blowing the doors off or being stealthy and picking the lock.

Every locked door has a key. You can find an NPC who has it and pickpocket it or acquire it somehow. It could be more complicated than it sounds as such a person wouldn't sit near the door waiting for someone to steal the key.

Also if you blow the door off, you will get noticed with all the unpleasant consequences.

The example can be extanded to other things, such as the one given by Naked_Lunch, which reminds me of the Arcanum quest in Tarant where you could sneak in by the sewers into the storage area and dress up as servants to avoid the guards.

Disguise is in and you can use it in (m)any situations. You can play (and beat) the game as a con artist, basically.

As for what is appropriate for a fantasy RPG, as long as you avoid anything which pushes it towards steampunk or sci-fi, you should be fine.

That's where I need some help. Posion and greek fire are fine. What about acid and nitro? What else can you think of and how would that work?

I'd like to be able to poison a well with a carcass or chemical.

Currently you can use poison on meals, water supplies, weapons, and your own lips if you are a female (kiss of death)

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

I'd like to be able to poison a well with a carcass or chemical.

Currently you can use poison on meals, water supplies, weapons, and your own lips if you are a female (kiss of death)

How does that work? Does she laminate her lips before coating them with poison or something? Would be pretty comical if she puts poison on her lips to kiss someone then dies along with them.

Anyways, interesting ideas as always VD, can't wait to play your game.

 

[Mefi]

Should you always see that you've made, for instance, a poison when you intended to make a healing potion?

Linking some form of random failure factor (normal - you lose ingrediants, rare - you make a totally different or rare variant of a potion, not necessarily detrimental) modified by skill might add a little spice to the often dull routine of "mix a with b to get c". It could also help balance that awful "I've got so many potions, Getafix would be jealous" syndrome which hits all games which use alchemy a lot. Reagents need to be relatively rare, else everyone would be drugged up to the eyeballs because there seems very little need for a laboratory in most games.

I liked parts of the Morrowind alchemy system - you could eat a reagent and get a limited effect, much as a druid would know that eating a certain herb would have a certain effect but if it was properly treated and mixed you could increase the effect.

Just a vague outline of some thoughts I've had ever since I got very annoyed with the Morrowind system of making potions.

 

[Fez]

Acid and Alkali are fine. You could have lime/quicklime as a weapon or trap, that stuff burns and blinds and has been used for offensive purposes before. Some kind of explosives is ok, considering you are not making a game based on real history like Teudogar. As long as it's not plastique or modern high-explosives. It's ok to include fairly complex mechanical devices too, there are records of ancient automatons being used in the past. They knew of steam power on those days too, though they never exploited it to the extent the people of the industrial age did. It seems it stayed a novelty and a toy for most people, though there are unsubstantiated claims it was used for more practical purposes in rare cases. They have recently been found to posses the technology to make metal gearwheels too. Pretty impressive stuff.

You could have small mechanical devices to work as a distraction, like the fabled noise-maker automaton that never made the cut into Arcanum. Perhaps it could even carry a small "payload", poison, burning material, etc. A simple wind up alarm bell to drop would be perfectly feasible. It could be set to go in a certain pre-determined path, up to a limited distance before stopping.

Lockpicks should be in, the ablility to craft better ones could be good. It could rely on both your knowledge of locks and crafting skills.

 

[Vault Dweller]

How does that work? Does she laminate her lips before coating them with poison or something?

As many things in the game, it works in a simple way relying on a heavy dose of imagination. Right clicking on an object brings up a menu, and if you are a girl, that's one of the options. We assume that the knowledge and necessary skills to handle poison in such an irresponsible manner come with the skill level high enough to create poison in the first place. IF your skill level isn't high enough to work with poisons and you simply found or bought a poison flask such an option won't be available.

Anyways, interesting ideas as always VD, can't wait to play your game.

Thanks, although the poison kiss idea belongs to EEVIAC

Should you always see that you've made, for instance, a poison when you intended to make a healing potion?

There are no side-effects for healing. The strength of a healing potion depends on the skill level.

There are no reagents though. Again, it's assumed that the knowledge to spot and handle reagents comes with the skill. Flasks are very rare and expensive though, considering the period and the decadence thing. That naturally limits the number of potions you can make and have, and prevents abuse.

Some kind of explosives is ok, considering you are not making a game based on real history like Teudogar. As long as it's not plastique or modern high-explosives.

What about nitroglycerine? It was discovered in 1846 but it doesn't require an advanced or high tech lab to produce.

They have recently been found to posses the technology to make metal gearwheels too. Pretty impressive stuff.

You talking about that Anticythera machine from 80 BC?

Lockpicks should be in, the ablility to craft better ones could be good. It could rely on both your knowledge of locks and crafting skills.

We have lockpicks. No ability to craft better ones at this point but that's easily fixable.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

I'm not sure about nitroglycerin. It is a modern explosive. It's also easy to make, but the ingredients are not what a Roman would really be expected to find, or make, or even stumble up on. Yeah, if you went back in time today, knowing exactly what to use, you could make it with the existing technology, but that's knowing everything ahead of time. If you're calling it alchemy, don't think chemistry, think magic, at least to the practitioners. They don't really know why stuff works and don't know the underlying principles to be able to improvise and create new stuff (once we figured out nitroglycerin, TNT and RDX weren't much of a stretch since they follow the exact same principles). Poisons are fine, you just make observations about nature and then collect, distill, and preserve. Acid and alkalis are fine as far as you'd use them, to burn or melt stuff. With enough wild experimentation and observation of volcanic activity, somebody could probably figure out the easy stuff like sulfuric acid. Hell, distilled vinegar is pretty dangerous stuff. Turning around and using acids and bases to make other stuff is where it starts to turn into modern chemistry.

 

[Fez]

Nitroglycerin or black powder is ok, it's an alternative world and it is not impossible for them to produce it. Those kinds of inventions could be discovered by accidents at almost any time really. As long as something doesn't require impossible levels of technology for the age - or to be more specific a technology that is key to producing it is not available (no jet planes when everyone has handcarts and bronze swords ) - then it's not much of a stretch to include it.

The Antikythera machine is probably the one I was thinking of, it was found in the fifties, or thereabouts.

 

[Vault Dweller]

... but the ingredients are not what a Roman would really be expected to find, or make, or even stumble up on.

True, but they aren't really Romans (only the influence is), and there was that fallen Empire thing that had arcane science strong enough to destroy half-the-world...

Yeah, if you went back in time today, knowing exactly what to use, you could make it with the existing technology, but that's knowing everything ahead of time. If you're calling it alchemy, don't think chemistry, think magic, at least to the practitioners.

Alright, good point. So, what do I substitute the boom magic with?

Nitroglycerin or black powder is ok...

I don't think that gunpowder fits. If it existed before, it should have forced firearms development and that would screw up the logic of the setting.

 

[Fez]

You only need acids and glycerin from animal fats to get to work making nitro, so it's feasible they could have made it in an alternate world.

 

[Fez]

The creation of explosives doesn't force people to develop firearms, it still requires a leap to go to that step. It took hundreds of years from the invention of gunpowder before anyone had firearms.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Nitroglycerin or black powder is ok, it's an alternative world and it is not impossible for them to produce it. Those kinds of inventions could be discovered by accidents at almost any time really.

Damn, I'm going to get a visit from the black helicopters for this one. Oh well, sue me, I took organic chemistry.

It's not really the kind of thing you just stumble up on. It took centuries of experimentation and the scientific method being in full swing for a while for a reason. You don't just find a dog that shits the stuff out, see it blow up, and then scratch your chin thoughtfully.

Hmm, how about I treat fat with shavings from a lead pipe that's had time to corrode. Ooh, ooh, then I'll collect and purify the exact right layer. Hey, know what makes sense now? Burn sulfur and run the vapors towards water. But that's not really the important part, the important part is to take some of that stuff with the sulfur and run it through saltpeter. You know, the crystals in batshit. Ooh ooh, but then I need to purify that correctly. Oh yeah, now I mix all this stuff together in the right proportions. Oh, and know not to let it get much above room temperature while I'm mixing it or else I blow myself up and the secret pretty much dies with me.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Black powder i think would be best to include, even though I do believe it was allaged to have been discovered by Brother Schwartz in the dark ages, though that's just a legend so far.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The creation of explosives doesn't force people to develop firearms, it still requires a leap to go to that step. It took hundreds of years from the invention of gunpowder before anyone had firearms.

What dates do you refer to? Roger Bacon mentioned the formula in 13 century and in 1326 there was the first official record of manufacturing cannons and bullets in Florence.

 

[Fez]

I can get where you're coming from, Walks, but people managed to create fairly complicated chemistry without any of our modern knowledge or even what the periodic table was or the basic elements. Lots of discoveries in the past were not found on their doorstep one night, but were still largely due to luck. All I am suggesting is that process happened to go more towards their benefit this time around.

In an alternate world I think it is quite possible for it to happen differently. The alchemists were not all madmen.

Black Powder is the one which is more likely to be found, due to it's ease of creation, but I wouldn't say it's impossible for nitro to be discovered first. I'm mearly putting forth that it is possible in VD's alternate world. I'm not saying that in real life they were running around with nitro and helicopters. We're only suggesting for the game that it might happen. Though, seeing as they managed to build clockwork machines and and tiny steam powered toys, maybe the stories of Atlantis and such will turn out to have some truth in them and they did have nitro. :D

 

[Fez]

AFAIK, the earliest record of gunpowder was the 9th century by the Chinese.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Alright, good point. So, what do I substitute the boom magic with?

Not to spoil things too much, but where exactly did the old arcanists come up with their stuff? Blowing up half the planet is no small affair. Are we talking post-post-apocalpytic like we'd probably be 500 years after the bombs assuming all knowledge was wiped out, or is this magic? If it's real magic, just go hocus-pocus, make the player gather some eye of newt, summon a couple of demons to infuse stones with infernal power, and call it a day. If there were real scientists in the past and most of their knowledge was lost, there's lots of possibilities. Hell, your hero could make an atom bomb. It probably wouldn't fit in, but it's possible.

 

[Fez]

You could cheat and make them harvest the chemical from explosive toads or lizards. Some sort of fantasy animal or plant could fill the gap.

 

[Astromarine]

Hmm, this discussion reminds me of a book series I read that focusses on something I think will be useful to the discussion.

The series is about the Roman General Belisarius, in an alternate universe where development was affected by a pair of advanced artificial intelligences. There is a huge military conflict between the Romans and an Indian civilization (the Malwa) that is trying to enforce genetic purity on the world. You can see the different approaches the AIs use on their respective pawns, and how the technologies develop based on the minds of the time. It's a good read, at least in my opinion, and gives a VERY good idea on how romans would work with advanced tech.

You can read the first book for free here: http://www.baen.com/library/0671878654/0671878654.htm If you finish it and want more, PM me.

 

[Vault Dweller]

AFAIK, the earliest record of gunpowder was the 9th century by the Chinese.

Good point. They didn't really "get" it, they played with the concept for awhile, made some arrow shooting bamboo tubes and then stopped using gunpowder in military applications.

Not to spoil things too much, but where exactly did the old arcanists come up with their stuff? Blowing up half the planet is no small affair. Are we talking post-post-apocalpytic like we'd probably be 500 years after the bombs assuming all knowledge was wiped out, or is this magic? If it's real magic, just go hocus-pocus, make the player gather some eye of newt, summon a couple of demons to infuse stones with infernal power, and call it a day. If there were real scientists in the past and most of their knowledge was lost, there's lots of possibilities. Hell, your hero could make an atom bomb. It probably wouldn't fit in, but it's possible.

Not a spoiler. Long story short, the Empire's true might was magic. I don't see magic as an ability to cast 10 magic missiles in a row, I see it as manipulation of the forces of nature. Our science does it by splitting atoms, they did it old school: incantations and powah of teh mind! They had thousands of mages, arcane labs where new ways of fucking with nature were perfected, production facilities were magic was infused into weapons & armor, etc. So, they were having a good time until they got into an argument with another kingdom. Neither side could win with conventional warfare, so they started blasting at each other with everything they've got. The Empire's won the war, but too much was destroyed, including most mages and magic-related facilities. (all that will be explored in the game, as these events are important)

Few hundred years later, those who remained in power have bad memories about magic. So, each Noble House can have only one mage who's allowed to train only one apprentice, as a replacement. All known magic-related facilities are either destroyed or sealed, all artifacts are locked. So, now it's a very low magic setting, and thus, summoning a couple of demons and even having any magic powahz is out of the question. You can only play with what you can make or find. In that context though, it's not unlikley that you can discover some old non-magical schematics for things like nitro. I can throw in some pseudo scientific explanation and make it hard to find and even harder to use (high skill req). What do you think?

Thanks for the link, Astro. I'll read it today.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

It makes sense. The thing is, once you get the science genie out of the bottle, it's hard to put back. Consider a mystical explanation for how the mages knew how to make nitroglycerin. Perhaps malicious demons planted the procedure to make it in their heads to increase the carnage of the war (similar to Deadlands). Nobody knows why it works, it just does. Don't even go pseudo-scientific explanation, go full out magic (brimstone to channel the power of the underworld, animal fats to harness the life force, etc.). Depending on whose recipe you find, they might even throw some inert stuff in the formula just because they think it works better (gold shavings, etc.). The character thinks he's working magic, and anyone else who knows about it assumes the same. They have no clue of the underlying mechanics, like how the the starting material for TNT and that for styrofoam are nearly identical.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Don't even go pseudo-scientific explanation, go full out magic
... The character thinks he's working magic, and anyone else who knows about it assumes the same. They have no clue of the underlying mechanics, like how the the starting material for TNT and that for styrofoam are nearly identical.

Actually, I had the opposite in mind, and feel free to disagree, of course.

I want to clearly separate alchemy and crafting - the science as we know it - from magic, which is an alternative science, basically. There is no underworld, no hellfires, etc. There are higher beings from other planes of existence, who were labelled as Gods and Demons, but that's a different story.

Anyway, in this setting magic is for the gifted and it requires a lifetime of learning and practicing. Finding a scroll and learning how to cast a magic missile is out of the question.

So, while the Empire relied mostly on magic, it had the status of science vs divine miracle, and thus other more conventional crafts like metalworks and alchemy/chemistry were supported which resulted in high quality steel, tempering, greek fire, etc. Most of this knowledge was lost after the war as well due to the loss of proper facilities. So, if one had access to one of the facilities, and had instructions, then theoretically one could make nitro. That's what I'm suggesting. Now tell me if that would work.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

The basic problem with that is why did science disappear? All you need are a few books, or a few survivors to pass on their knowledge and keep developing the field. Yeah, gamewise you want the player to be able to make nitro because it's useful and makes stuff go boom while not making them wizards tossing off magic missiles or requiring years of training, but if people were making it and knew exactly what was going on, that's going to have a huge impact on how the gameworld developed. It's not as easy to brush under the carpet again. The empire was hurt but survived, so one should be able to assume at least some of the scientists made it, too. Whether they still had the facilities or not is irrelevant, because you can make nitro in your kitchen. You can reproduce most of the great discoveries in chemistry without much more equipment than a heat source and appropriate glassware. The process won't be as efficient as when Dow does it in their billion dollar plants, but it will still work.

It doesn't take any special skill or a lifetime of training for science, so if they were able to make nitroglycerin, knew precisely the underlying processes, etc. why hasn't someone figured out stuff like plastic in the hundreds of years since then? Chemically speaking, nitroglycerin to plastic really isn't a far stretch at all. You understand one, you understand the other. All someone has to do is play around with chemicals enough until they get the right mix to start a polymerization reaction. If there's no taboo on science and it's kosher unlike magic, then why hasn't it progressed? One can assume they soon figured out to combine nitro with clay to make it more stable regardless of the circumstances of its discovery, so why aren't the king's men using nitroglycerin sticks for construction and demolition, like we did? If it stays classified as forbidden magic (it's really not, but no one knows the difference) that no one really understands or trusts, the player can still have access to it (to use when willing to risk drawing the wrath of pretty much everyone) while limiting the collateral effects on the gameworld.