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101 ways to rule the world with Alchemy!

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,024
Walks with the Snails said:
The basic problem with that is why did science disappear? All you need are a few books, or a few survivors to pass on their knowledge and keep developing the field.
No arguing here. I wasn't clear enough. The existing science didn't disappear, it's taken a few steps back. The knowledge remains, but everything else isn't. Metal mines aren't outputting a lot, the transportation system is gone, the facilities destroyed, and even the demand is low. There are some craftsmen who work with some metals and chemicals, but it can't be compared to pre-war quality.

It's not as easy to brush under the carpet again. The empire was hurt but survived, so one should be able to assume at least some of the scientists made it, too.
The scientists did survive, but that's not the problem. The problem is that the Empire didn't. It fell. Some provinces are devastated by the war. Some provinces are run by surviving Houses. Those Houses worry about keeping the power (and other things), and reviving and investing into science isn't one of their concerns. Not at the moment.

It doesn't take any special skill or a lifetime of training for science, so if they were able to make nitroglycerin, knew precisely the underlying processes, etc. why hasn't someone figured out stuff like plastic in the hundreds of years since then?
I guess there was no need. What would an aggressive Roman Empire-like place do with plastics? Nitro goes boom. Plastic doesn't. Nitro could be produced easily, plastic (its popular applications) require special facilities which is always a factor.

If there's no taboo on science and it's kosher unlike magic, then why hasn't it progressed?
For the same reasons we aren't developing solar and electric cars. Gasoline works just fine for now. Anyway, ancient societies had many very advanced elements and wonders that obviously required some serious scientific skills yet overall the next step wasn't made. As Fez reminded, the Chinese had gunpowder 6 centuries before it reached Europe, yet they failed to capitalize on it and develop related industries. Ancient Greeks made that Anticythera mechanism with more than 30 interconnected cog-wheels to determine positions and relationships between different stars, yet no visible advances in mechanics were made.

...so why aren't the king's men using nitroglycerin sticks for construction and demolition, like we did?
No idea. Not as effective as magic? Not precise enough for peaceful applications, not strong enough for military? Nitro could have been discovered by accident. The results weren't all that impressive, but due to simplicity of the process the formula survived and was passed among craftsmen?

If it stays classified as forbidden magic (it's really not, but no one knows the difference) that no one really understands or trusts, the player can still have access to it (to use when willing to risk drawing the wrath of pretty much everyone) while limiting the collateral effects on the gameworld.
Good point.
 

k_bits

Scholar
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Messages
210
Vault Dweller said:
So, first, what do you think, and second, what alchemy applications would you like to see in games? What's appropriate for a fantasy rpg? What's too much?

It think what you've written is excellent. I like the idea of being able to get better effects as your skill increases. For example, pretty much everyone knows that putting aloe on a cut will speed up healing. Very few know how to make a tincture using aloe to treat internal conditions.

With that in mind, have you looked at some of ways in which alchemy was practiced / is practiced today?

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/bibliog.html

Clearly they had a hardon for transmuting metals via chemical process - sometimes for religious purposes. Maybe there's something to that.

Just a link to some backround info. Can't really think of any applications that you haven't already discussed.
 
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Check out my massive package.
Figured I'd throw in my two cents because it's rare to find a developer that gives a damn:

I am very much in favor of a game world being believable--ie, explainable--in as many instances as possible. Why? Because if the game says "Oh, it's magic. That's just the way it is," that's a little more of my brain that didn't get to investigate and learn about the fictional world it's exploring. And thus, I care a little less about the game world. In short, use of 'cop out' answers or explanations like 'magic' leads the gamer away from thinking, and the less thought the gamer does, the less he cares about the game.

Thus, I propose the following for your dealings with 'magic' in the gameworld:

'Magic,' pre-fall, could be an energy source leaps and bounds beyond any other energy source found in the world at the game date. It could be like the Romans discovered nuclear energy (not the details of it, just the application) long before gunpower was even close to being tripped over and discovered (at least, historically). Alchemists who toyed with mysterious chunks of ore that glowed softly in the dark discovered a heavenly power within, for example.

Of course, actually using nuclear reactions as 'magic' would be a little, uh, cliched. Your game already looks enough like Fallout. :wink:

Maybe the Romans came upon a kind of energy we can only hypothesize about today? Like, an energy application of String Theory, or Antimatter, or Dark Energy, or something? Just because it's not scientific fact doesn't mean you can't explain and build a mythos behind it -- look at Alpha Centauri, for instance! That game's tech tree was sheer brilliance, because it paired real science with fictional expounding.

Hell, if you want your work to be easy, go find a crackpot article on Anitmatter/Dark Energy/String Theory and just, well, copy it wholesale as your definition for 'magic.' Really, anything making claims about understanding any of the above at this point is going to be crackpot, and will likely turn out to be 99% wrong, but who cares? Such things are fantasy even in modern terms, and probably will remain so for the rest of our lifespans.

In short, when I'm exploring the ruined 'magical' laboratories in your game, I don't want to find some abstraction like 'MAGICAL ORB' and then be told, oh, this is what destroyed the old world, it's suuuuuuuper deadly. I want to find evidence of this 'magic' being the interaction of natural forces. I want to dig through the remains and the dust and, as a player, say "Holy shit, this wasn't some abstraction, this is an alternate earth after all."

It's the 'Planet of the Apes' effect. It's coming to a strange new planet after years upon years of cryogenic sleep/space travel, getting captured by the native ape creatures, having an adventure and making a daring escape, and while you're running away in the final scene, coming upon the fucking head of the Statue of Liberty half-sunk on the beach. Holy fuck. This is Earth.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
k_bits said:
It think what you've written is excellent.
Thanks

With that in mind, have you looked at some of ways in which alchemy was practiced / is practiced today?

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/bibliog.html
Nope, but thanks for the link, looks handy.

Clearly they had a hardon for transmuting metals via chemical process - sometimes for religious purposes. Maybe there's something to that.
Perhaps, high end crafting (involving mithril) should require some knowledge of alchemy as well. I can throw some metal transmuting techniques (schematics) in too.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,024
undead dolphin hacker said:
Figured I'd throw in my two cents because it's rare to find a developer that gives a damn:
That's because I'm not a real developer yet. When I become one, I'll stop listening to people, announce that I always wanted to make RT games, and blame all the genre problems on some features (too bad, tyranny of choices is taken, maybe I'll go with nightmares of non-linearity). I already have a speech ready.

I am very much in favor of a game world being believable--ie, explainable--in as many instances as possible. Why? Because if the game says "Oh, it's magic. That's just the way it is," that's a little more of my brain that didn't get to investigate and learn about the fictional world it's exploring.
No arguing here.

Thus, I propose the following for your dealings with 'magic' in the gameworld:

'Magic,' pre-fall, could be an energy source leaps and bounds beyond any other energy source found in the world at the game date. It could be like the Romans discovered nuclear energy...
Hmm... yes and no. The magic, like I mentioned somewhere above , is very science like, but it's not an energy source, and it couldn't be one. The story and dialogues are already written, so at least for that reason I can't change anything. However, I like explanations and I dislike being told "just because", so odds are you'd be ok with what I have.

Of course, actually using nuclear reactions as 'magic' would be a little, uh, cliched. Your game already looks enough like Fallout. :wink:
lol. No, there is nothing in the game that resembles our tech.

In short, when I'm exploring the ruined 'magical' laboratories in your game, I don't want to find some abstraction like 'MAGICAL ORB' and then be told, oh, this is what destroyed the old world, it's suuuuuuuper deadly.
No, no such nonsense. The explanation is believable and very "realistic"

I want to find evidence of this 'magic' being the interaction of natural forces. I want to dig through the remains and the dust and, as a player, say "Holy shit, this wasn't some abstraction, this is an alternate earth after all."
Plenty of that, assuming that we agree on what natural forces are.
 

AMDG

Novice
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
65
IMHO , if you go at the tech level of nitroglycerin , then one may attach the explosive charge to a crossbow bolt . I know you are reluctant to introduce guns in that setting , so that may be the next logical choice - and you can produce the special "ammo" too ...

Link any superior recipe to a particular quest or skill level , in order o encourage replayability .

Use potions to get anything from stat increases to a sleeping gas

Vault Dweller said:
We've had a heated internal discussion dedicated to Alchemy, and I've decided to share some thoughts with you and see what you think. Anyway....

Alchemy, an often boring and redundant art of fixing potions. How to make it more interesting? How to make it appealing to various demographics from mad scientists to dumb fighters? Here is what I think.

A) It should be interactive - use poison on your dagger, use greek fire on your blade to get a flaming sword, throw greek fire bomb at your enemies to damage them AND to make a small fire barrier, use acid on locks and enemies armor, use nitroglycerin to blow things up, etc

B) It should help you solve quests and progress like any other useful skill does.

C) It should have disadvantages and side effects (i.e. you need to open a door leading to a passage, you blow it up, the passage collapses. Or you go berserk after drinking some mushroom potion, cut your enemies to pieces, but while the effect lasts, you are unable to think clearly and get only aggressive, confrontational responses)

So, first, what do you think, and second, what alchemy applications would you like to see in games? What's appropriate for a fantasy rpg? What's too much?
 

Gambler

Augur
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
767
One advice. Please do not make ingredients appear in random places. It sucks when player is forced to collect and keep junk. Also, you can make some NPCs that can tell you about where to find ingridients (once you know you need some ingridient in particular).
 

AMDG

Novice
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
65
Certain ingredients should be available only from certain vendors , monsters or quests .

Use manuals to increase skills.

Be certain to include mechanic NPCs in the party that can be activated using alchemy or lore.

Can someone craft traps or mechanic NPCs ?
 

Roqua

Prospernaut
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space
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YES!
Arsinic, cyanide, hemlock, saffron, racin, ergot, curare=effect up to death (at different times, minutes to days, also influenced by way of poisoing, amount and alchemy skill)

belladona=minor effect like lose of voice up to severe hallucination, possible death rare unless alchemy skill is very high?

Wolfsbane=chest pain, difficulty breathing, to major sickness (non lethal way of taking some one out of equation)

All have different prices and commonality.

Lets look at the history of alchemy (and the quest for the philosopher’s stone). Philosopher’s stone is a little silly, and might not fit your setting, so we are left with the by products of alchemical applications, such as:

Unguents, potions, elixirs, salves, cordials, ointments

And…

Powders, dusts

Could also have imbued weapons or objects maybe.

Just for the sake of sanity, maybe think a little out of the box without getting really historically inaccurate or too high fantasy (such as “grenades” and the like).

Like a polish that makes your edge sharper and more durable?

We can make a grouping of possibilities:

Anesthetic (dull pain, injuries), Disinfectant (stop infections, maybe aid poison recovery?), Drug (effects mental state), Stimulants (buffs), Depressants (buffs? Anti-buffs?), poisons, healing aids, utility (fire potions), and then the esoteric (magical effects, this is the thinking outside the box one).

I still don’t believe in insta-heal potions, especially during combat, but you already said that is not in.

So maybe I didn’t list many more usages of alchemy, but maybe I planted some seeds others can run with? Alchemy never was very interesting to me. Have you looked through the darklands manual? They have a very good alchemy system.

Of course, in some settings, powerful alchemists could make automata, but that doesn’t seem to fit the setting?
 

AMDG

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Messages
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"powerful alchemists could make automata, but that doesn’t seem to fit the setting?"

As I understand , the setting is similar to Arcanum , but the old world was a little more advanced in both tech and magic .
 

Roqua

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Yes, and no player magic, but some powerful mages still around. Player created golems just seems too magicy and too not alchemicaly or fitting.
 

Mulciber

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Apr 29, 2005
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The Frozen Wastes (of Manitoba)
This discussion puts me in mind of some potential source material about alcemy that you might find useful.

Darklands: There's a very good chance that many people here have played this gem, but the Cliff's notes are as follows.. 4-character open-ended rpg set in early-middle age Germany. There was no 'magic', just pious monks that could pray to saints for miracles and alchemists who could produce potions after much study and sometimes weeks of effort. The potions are well balanced and varied, had varying levels of quality based on skill and luck, and used many different reagents. Darklands really managed to get the feeling of the way that alchemy should be. The classical names for the portions like Aqua Regia and so on helped this to a great extent.

Agent of Byzantium: An alternate-history novel by Harry Turtledove; one of his first. Basic premise is that Muhammoud converted to Christianity, the Muslims never overran Byzantium or Persia and thus the dark ages were basically avoided. 1500 or so rolls around, and technology starts to advance. Point is that at one point the main character is sent out to investigate reports of someone breaching a castle wall with (what turns out to be) gunpowder. That section of the book was a great take on how emerging alchemic discoveries would occur and how they would be reacted to.
 

mytgroo

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Jul 6, 2006
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Land of Dreams
About Gunpowder

Gunpowder did not lead to guns initially. It led to rockets which were big bulky and very hard to use except on large scale battlefields. Cannons came long before guns, and they started with large stone balls. Bows and crossbow were more effective than guns for a very long time. As a siege weapon yes. Also fuses for gunpowder hadn't been developed for a long time, so grenades were not an option. Gunpowder is essentially a siege weapon at the level of technology being described.
 

mytgroo

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Alchemy could be very fun.

Alchemy could be a lot of fun. There could be all kinds of neat things done with it.

Minor automata and summoning.

1) Make minor automata like mechanical bees, mechanical spiders, and low level golems to help you fight, basically low level summoning using low level ingredients.

2) Make various potions-- healing, curing, poisions, flash powder, strength, speed, etc.

3) Make minor items to help you out -- thinking caps, embroidered robes, other fancy looking stuff with minor effects. Spectacles, poison rings, mirrors, etc.
 

Slylandro

Scholar
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Nov 27, 2005
Messages
705
Maybe a sequel could contain the other stuff if the world advances enough during the post-apocalypse. Assuming that VD will make a sequel if AoD is successful.
 

AMDG

Novice
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Jul 26, 2006
Messages
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It's funny to see that a world that had planes and radios ( and some are still working as described ) is considered too primitive to have had automata - magical or mechanical - considering the player is visiting all kinds of underground labs and "places of power"
 

Paranoid Jack

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Jul 3, 2006
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I haven't read anything to indicate that AoD has that type of game-world. From what I have seen and read neither the present post-apocalyptic or the pre-war world had planes and/or radios. Are you thinking of another game?
 

AMDG

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Jul 26, 2006
Messages
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Antidas is talking about "flying ships" , and Meru has a "comm device".

Btw VD , can someone build/find a Black Chariot ?
 

LlamaGod

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I'm a bit late coming in here...

But when I was playing the PnP game Victoriana, I was playing a scientist guy and I wanted to be able to kill things via science instead of your usual way, so I had a little system.

I cannot remember all of it correctly right now and I lost my files on a hard drive wipe, but it was an idea like:


powder 1
powder 2
powder 3

liquid 1
liquid 2
liquid 3

Each power has a certain property, like acidic, explosive, and one other I dont remember. Then the Liquids activate them and give them properties.

One liquid made the chemicals applicable, so like you combine that with explosive and then pour it on something. The object coated in that will explode when impacted or thrown. Another amplied the powders effect, giving it no special properties beyond being stronger, and then the third I don't remember either.

The vials, powder and liquids all acted like ammo to be purchased. I even made a gun which fires special vials and i'd combine and shoot it at people.


I think using an idea like that (container, 2 sets of things with special properties) and expanding into a skill system and setting up a general system (i.e. some things are harder to find than others) would be really great.

You could be an Alchemical scientist and fight like one, instead of just providing yourself drinks.

A weaponsmith can attack people with his creations, so why not the Alchemist?



Also, being able to transmute metals into cash at max skill level would be pretty cool. It would be sorta like the Recycler in System Shock 2, except for weapons and armor and stuff.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
AMDG said:
It's funny to see that a world that had planes and radios ( and some are still working as described ) is considered too primitive to have had automata - magical or mechanical - considering the player is visiting all kinds of underground labs and "places of power"
There are "automata", but again, just like with magic, it's not what you would expect. As for planes and radios, there are no such things. There are devices and objects that have similar functionality, but it was achieved through different means. Think of The Scar's thaumaturgy, if you need an analogy.

Btw VD , can someone build/find a Black Chariot ?
You can find it, but can't do much with it. It's a flavor piece.
 

AMDG

Novice
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Jul 26, 2006
Messages
65
"There are "automata", "

So I must assume the game has "golems" after all . Can the player craft or activate them , recruit them as NPCs and so on ?

"It's a flavor piece."

Too bad . I was hoping to find at least a flying ship for easier travel.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,024
AMDG said:
"There are "automata", "

So I must assume the game has "golems" after all . Can the player craft or activate them , recruit them as NPCs and so on ?
No to all of the above: not golems, can't craft, can't activate (hint: can deactivate), can't recruit.

"It's a flavor piece."

Too bad . I was hoping to find at least a flying ship for easier travel.
You can't really expect to find a working device of that magnitude in mint condition after all those hundreds of years, can you? Wouldn't make sense.
 

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