7 Mages - turn-based blobber where you play a party of mages

[aweigh]

Dude, MMX and Wizardry 6-8 are completely different genres than Grimlock. For one thing the first two examples are turn-based and the second example, Grimlock, is real-time bullshit.

 

[aweigh]

V_K

That's an excellent screen-capture. I'm going to use it from now on whenever one of the mouth-breathers bashes me for using software translation (not on the NPC Dialog but the point is the same).

Japanese scripts are often TERRIBLE. My argument on the JRPG Forum is something like this: right now I'm waiting for somone who is translating the NPC dialog script from Wizardry Empire 1 so when he's done I can hack that in and the game will be finished. If it were up to *me* personally I would google-translate everything and then fan-fic the output into dialog/story.

BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL DIALOG/SCRIPT WAS WORTHLESS ANYWAY SO ME FAN-FIC'ING IT WOULD ONLY MAKE THE GAME BETTER!

however apparently i'm the only person on the planet who feels this way and even suggesting the mere notion of not using 100% super literal, super-duper accurate Jap-speak translation is apparently the biggest sin against humanity ever and would merit the "scene" nuking any translated game I release and actively ban it from distribution.

obviously i would never think of doing this on a game with a good script or one that had a lot of dialog; but if we're talking about a turn-based blobber with like, 20 NPC's in the entire game where 18 of them just spout instructional advice... jesus christ google can do that job. Just look at the shit that samurai is saying!

I mean for starters i would never have localized Innocent equipment as.... Innocent. That gear can only be used by chars who've never multi-classed: trust me, ANYONE can come up with a better fucking localization than motherfucking "INNOCENT". Why did it appear in the game's english translation? Because the translation company was probably ordered to do a literal translation and the japanese characters in the game script translated as innocet/virgin. Guaranteed. So the game ends up with Innocent equipment.

Why does it say Job instead of Class? Another thing I would've "localized" on any game I was translating from jap-to-human. It says job because the jap-runes used for Class in RPG's translate literally as OCCUPATION... see where I'm going with this?

the weeabo masses lurve their literal translations and even thinking of changing "Jobs" to motherfucking "CLASS" is like, a big problem, and i should kill myself for not worshipping the original jap script.

BTW, my translation of Wizardry Empire 1 is quite monocled: I threw out every single japanese spell name and renamed every singly spell back to its original Wiz 1-8 name taken straight from the game manuals. All references to jap-lingo like occupation, races, etc, are all localized to utilize only Wiz 1-8 wording. For example the creature type Dragon-Neo (lol) i changed to Draconian as a nod to Wiz 8. And yes they're the same they even breath too. Japs just called them Dragon-Neo. Any other person other than me would have utilized Dragon-Neo; but my intention has always been to make any westerner playing Wiz-Emp-1 for the first time to feel like he's playing a game from the main series as much as possible.

All of the battle text descriptions are taken from Wiz 1-5; all of the situational feedback like when a character dies, or is beheaded, whatever, i simply took straight from the same situation in Wiz 1-5 and followed that.

 

[V_K]

Last question - if I love MMX and Wiz6-8, etc, but dislike Grimlock and games like that, is this a game I would like in your opinion?

Probably. It does feel like a kinda more puzzle-heavy MMX. Character system is more simplistic though.

 

[aweigh]

they're different genres dude.

 

[aweigh]

for one thing you first need to ask roqua if he likes puzzles because he's referencing non-puzzle heavy games and asking how this game compares. don't lie to him just to get him to play it.

 

[Roqua]

for one thing you first need to ask roqua if he likes puzzles because he's referencing non-puzzle heavy games and asking how this game compares. don't lie to him just to get him to play it.

No, I like crpgs - that is why I play crpgs. If I liked puzzles I'd play puzzles.

What genre is 7 Mages if it isn't a crpg? A dungeon crawler? I am glad you admit dungeon crawlers aren't crpgs because they aren't. They are dungeon crawlers with rpg-lite elements.

 

[aweigh]

i meant it's a completely different genre from MM which is turn-based and not puzzle-focused and even more different from wizardry 6-8 which are also turn-based and while there's some puzzles they're more of an afterthought than a feature.

whatever genre this game is in it is not in the same one as MM/Wizardry.

roqua, this thread is about a puzzle heavy game; more so than even puzzle heavy crawlers. it's the main reason V_K likes it. he doesn't like combat in RPG's; and this game is all about constant backtracking and solving obtuse puzzles and simplistic combat. this game is more of a puzzle hybrid blobber.

tl;dr this isn't the game you're looking for.

 

[aweigh]

and i while i think the exact opposite of what you said about dungeon crawlers being rpg-lite; (in fact i consider turn-based crawlers/blobbers to be purer RPGs than games in the codex top 10-- i say wizardry 1 from 1987 is more of a true rpg than fallout 1)

however i you've explained yourself before and what your view is on this matter and you know what? i get it. so it doesn't trigger me. the specific sub-genre of blobber-crawlers that i love so much are indeed NOT for people looking for something in their rpg BEYOND combat/exploration/party-building. if they want more than those 3 things then they will not be satisfied.

you're one of the types who want MORE. unfortunately (for everyone) there are incredibly few games that feature all facets of the RPG in a good implementation. they can probably be counted on one hand.

 

[aweigh]

I asked on the steam forums for help and got this: http://steamcommunity.com/app/446590/discussions/0/392183857635090599/
Haven't tried it yet though. The map doesn't show which currents affect which teleporters, so might take a bit trial and error still.

did you enjoy that particular labyrinth? the way the currents affected the teleporters and it came down to almost trial and error?

that's Wizardry navigational puzzle 1101. it's the type i most love and the only kind of puzzle i consider has gameplay merit because it forces the player to uncover the correct "way" or "route" but instead of doing it by using items or pixel-hunting the player does it by actually PLAYING the actual game.

i mention this out of pure curiosity. elminage: Gothic is chock-full of entire floors just like that as well, it's very much standard fare for Wiz-clones. i'm guessing you didn't like this part as much as the other puzzles which were more Adventure-game style?

this would probably be the first puzzle i'd truly enjoy while playing the game, since reading through the thread it's only at this point that your play-by-post accounts even mentions traditional navigational puzzle use in a dungeon.

 

[Roqua]

whatever genre it is in, roqua, this thread is about a puzzle heavy game; more so than even puzzle heavy crawlers. it's the main reason V_K likes it. he doesn't like combat in RPG's; and this game is all about constant backtracking and solving obtuse puzzles and simplistic combat.

tl;dr this isn't the game you're looking for.

Jesus, I hope your two sentences weren't too long for me read. But thank you very much for the warning. I certainly dislike games revolving around puzzles and putting shit on tiles in the correct order. Especially when the character building is lite.

Thank you again.

and i while i think the exact opposite of what you said about dungeon crawlers being rpg-lite; (in fact i consider turn-based crawlers/blobbers to be purer RPGs than games in the codex top 10-- i say wizardry 1 from 1987 is more of a true rpg than fallout 1)

however i you've explained yourself before and what your view is on this matter and you know what? i get it. so it doesn't trigger me. the specific sub-genre of blobber-crawlers that i love so much are indeed NOT for people looking for something in their rpg BEYOND combat/exploration/party-building. if they want more than those 3 things then they will not be satisfied.

you're one of the types who want MORE. unfortunately (for everyone) there are incredibly few games that feature all facets of the RPG in a good implementation. they can probably be counted on one hand.

All crpgs have all the elements of a crpg. There are a lot of them. Just last year, of the top of my head, we had the DC for both WL2 and DOS, Antharion, Avernum 2, Void Tactics, Serpents in the stagland, AoD, Underrail, Wastewalkers, Bloodlust: Shadowhunter, I think Pillars came out last year too, right? Shadowrun isn't a proper crpg but close enough. Same with Fallen: A2P, same with Dwarf Run. Hell, Boston Lockdown is fun as hell with great combat, itemization, and character building. Was Dead State last year? Again, not a full fledged proper crpg but close enough. Both Dark Suns came out on GoG. Swords & Sorcery Underworld, the Quest, Dex, was MMX last year? Shadows, Heretic Kingdom? Lords of Xulima? The update to Legends of Dawn and the new Wave of Darkness.

Okay, I suck at knowing exactly what year something came out, but the point is the crpg market is going well. But we need more. We can expect more. Fuck shit games with no content. Fuck slightly interactive movies. And fuck games that force me to play as a metrosexual pasty white fucker with hippy hair. On almost every game above I make my own character or characters, they have shops, they have quests, they also have dungeon and more dungeon. We can, so we should, expect more.

Sword Coast Legends could have been a good game if they tried a little to make it a 5e game instead of "capturing the spirit." That is just more bullshit like emergent, or streamlined, inclusive, or Dark Souls, or Big Picture, or Steam Controller.

There were some decentish looking jrpgs like celestial tales and Echoes of Atheria I'll eventually pick up too. Lot of good crpgs in EA as well or being made.

I finally don't have to play the same twelve or so games over and over and over and over again. I have new shit and a lot of it is much better than my old favorites. I even found a site I can play Buck Rogers in right in my browser with one click. Only the Genesis one, but shit, easy is easy.

Why would I waste my time on games with 1982 UIs and shit gameplay and no content other than ridiculous dungeons like Elminage Gothic? games like that that promote shit and not real crpgs need to be ended so we get more crpgs. We need to promote, buy, and support real crpgs. Not waste time pirating Japanese child porn games and translating them. We can help the market or fuck the market.

I need you to help the market. Tell people about the new good games that are out or coming out. And tell them to buy, not pirate. Just the crpgs. Not the contentless shit or rpg-lite shit or fake inclusive controller bullshit. We need more good.

We need MMXI and Wiz9 and Star Trail and and a new RoA type game with the new 5th edition Drakensang rules. Help me usher in a new age of fucking awesome and turn from your pedophile lust of Japanese grinders of more dungeon. CRPGs need men like you.

 

[aweigh]

i know, you've said this to me before. i understand your point of view on "dungeon content". it happens many people, myself included, enjoy _that_ more than the other parts of the RPG template: to a disporportional degree. there are many elements to that and a few of them would probably include examples such as mapping out the dungeon (be it by hand or using a tool); the constant macro-managing of resources as you uncover new floors below you with the lure of more powerful items awaiting you, etc.

we enjoy those things only as long as the party-building/character-systems are mature enough to sustain complex party building and party management and as long as the combat mechanics are mature enough to allow the character systems to actually be useful and make the player feel like he's completely free to find his own personal answer to the eternal question: what classes/characters/races do what best to whom and when or where and how is this accomplished best and if/then/else analyzing how this class/character/race compliments established party and how the other characters are affected and in turn affect said char/class/race.

as long as the crawler in question gets those aspects right, and then tops it off with dungeon design that is devilish, perhaps a LITTLE bit "punishing" and makes the player feel constantly in tension and danger of running out of resources or getting wiped by an unlucky encounter roll then me and the other people like me who worship at this alter don't want or need anything more.

we don't want npc's to talk to. we don't need puzzles to solve. we want limited inventories because it makes the game harder as you can carry less loot and less restoratives. we want logical and intelligent dungeon floors with tons of fixed encounters that provide a random chance at getting good loot and full of "navigational puzzles" between each encounter: conveyer belts/slides/chutes/shoots/pits/spinners/dark-zones/teleporters/one-way-doors/one-way-hallways/etc.

that's all we want and thankfully the japs seems to feel the exact same way. they motherfucking luuurve their old Wizardry formula. the amount of wiz-clones with anime graphics is at times almost hard to believe! especially when the sub-genre has almost completely died out in the West. i assume it has to do with how much japs value the following:

a) simple interfaces and easy to understand mechanics that nevertheless provide ample room for depth as the game progresses i.e. regardless of what you can say about Wiz-clones, this is a sub-genre very easy to just pick up and play. i mean, this isn't rocket science or whatever. you build party. you kill monster. get loot. reach new floor. repeat.

b) they lourve wizardry and always have and you're not gonna believe why... apparently a big part of the success Wiz 1-5 had in japan was because it featured the classes Samurai and Ninja. In those days, i.e. 1987 and onwards, the japs didn't have many RPGs to choose from and the ones that they were making themselves DID NOT FEATURE ANY ASIAN ASPECTS !!! mind-blowing isn't it? we actually Reverse-Weeabo'd them into liking the genre.

c) easy controls. wiz series didn't introduce mouse controls until wizardry 7!! before that it was all keyboard control. this made it extremely easy to integrate into a console controller scheme. this is actually a very important detail. this would not happen today. japs dismiss anything that doesn't use a standardized control scheme (be it controller or whatever else).

so anyway yeah i completely lost my train of thought.

EDIT: oh! right, "dungeon content". so in summation what you perceive as a LACK OF is perceived as a REASON TO by me and others.

 

[Siveon]

Must you two squabble on every blobber thread? Jeez, get a room.


OT: So as far as I can tell, the mobile version is completed but the PC is in EA because they still need to fix up the UI? Did I get that right? I was considering playing this on the shitter.

 

[Roqua]

Must you two squabble on every blobber thread? Jeez, get a room.


OT: So as far as I can tell, the mobile version is completed but the PC is in EA because they still need to fix up the UI? Did I get that right? I was considering playing this on the shitter.

We are voyeurs and want people to watch our love making.

 

[Merlkir]

What is an rpg.

 

[V_K]

Jesus, people, do you even read anything I (or anyone else for that matter) post or just write whatever random shit comes to your head?

i meant it's a completely different genre from MM which is turn-based and not puzzle-focused and even more different from wizardry 6-8 which are also turn-based and while there's some puzzles they're more of an afterthought than a feature.

For fuck's sake, the fucking thread title says 7 Mages is a turn-based game. What makes it "a different genre"?
Moreover, it's combat may be on the easy side, but it's not simplistic. If anything, it's more complex than typical blobber combat because of party-splitting feature - which has also been mentioned .

On puzzles:

- The game is very puzzle-heavy. Just a few steps out of the tutorial there already are some non-braindead puzzles. The ones I've encountered so far were DM-style: pits, pressure plates, teleporters etc, but there might be some more unique puzzles later on. There is at least one spell involved in puzzle-solving, hopefully more.

How do you know a good blobber? Why, by being stuck on a puzzle no more than 3 hours in, of course!

Speaking of puzzles, 7 Mages is extremely puzzle-heavy. If you hate puzzles in RPGs, this isn't the game for you. In its puzzle density it's close to Legend of Grimrock, but the approach to puzzle design is very different. Unlike Grimrock, where every puzzle is built from the same building blocks, in 7 Mages each dungeon features its own set of unique puzzle mechanics, and many of them are inventory-based like in Adventure games.

Well, the game in no dubious terms advertises puzzles as one of its main features, and I have written extensively in this thread about how puzzle-heavy it is

It does feel like a kinda more puzzle-heavy MMX

On game structure:

The game world is quite open, you can visit many areas right off the bat - provided you can survive them. There don't seem to be any sidequests, but the main quest is quite non-linear.

(this turned out to be true only for the first half of the game, the second one is linear)

On the plus side: the first half of the game is completely open, areas are all very different both visually and mechanically (e.g. you get an underwater level, a level in the insides of a dead dragon, a level where you get to fly a rather clumsy dragon etc.)
On the minus side: next to no optional content, second half of the game is completely linear.

- The starting town is fairly large but most of the buildings and NPCs are just props, you can't enter/talk to them. Most of the dialogs boil down to clicking the only availible options, when there are more it usually involves some sort of service (training etc) - but, well, it's a dungeon crawler, they aren't exactly known for deep dialogs. Some options are locked behind Charisma checks, others require having a certain character in your party.

I'd say 7M is halfway between M&M and LoG - it has a story and some (badly written) NPCs, but no sidequests. Most of the game is spent solving puzzles and fighting.

There is one central town with lots of services, some of which double as NPCs. NPC interactions are closer to M&Ms than later Wizardries, i.e. not very deep.
A lot of the areas aren't technically dungeons (swamps, forests, mountains etc.), but functionally they are (think Wiz7).

 

[aweigh]

yeah i fully admit when i'm wrong: i had completely forgotten that 7 Mages is turn based. I kept thinking it was something hybrid system because it's on mobile. I apologize 100% V_K

 

[aweigh]

V_K

now why don't you answer my question ?????

I asked on the steam forums for help and got this: http://steamcommunity.com/app/446590/discussions/0/392183857635090599/
Haven't tried it yet though. The map doesn't show which currents affect which teleporters, so might take a bit trial and error still.

did you enjoy that particular labyrinth? the way the currents affected the teleporters and it came down to almost trial and error?

that's Wizardry navigational puzzle 1101. it's the type i most love and the only kind of puzzle i consider has gameplay merit because it forces the player to uncover the correct "way" or "route" but instead of doing it by using items or pixel-hunting the player does it by actually PLAYING the actual game.

i mention this out of pure curiosity. elminage: Gothic is chock-full of entire floors just like that as well, it's very much standard fare for Wiz-clones. i'm guessing you didn't like this part as much as the other puzzles which were more Adventure-game style?

this would probably be the first puzzle i'd truly enjoy while playing the game, since reading through the thread it's only at this point that your play-by-post accounts even mentions traditional navigational puzzle use in a dungeon.

oh, and one last thing:

BLOBBERS != PUZZLES

in fact for many blobbers the amount of good design decreases as the amount of puzzles increases. I think you're confusing yourself with Adventure genre.

puzzles didn't start worming their way into first person crawlers until the coming of the real time crawlers, i.e. EotB and Dungeon Keep/Master whatever.

they have also never been an integral feature of other dungeon crawler sub-genres, i.e. Wiz-clones/Wiz-types and roguelikes.

so please don't let your love of puzzles blind you to this. by all means preach on brutha but don't lie to people and tell them a good blobber = good puzzles. blobber is not a genre.

THAT SAID i would like to know your thoughts on that 7 Mages dungeon you were talking about in my question/quote of your talking about it. Why? because it's the only type of crawler puzzling i enjoy and i'd like to hear your thoughts on this type of design. Why? because you're not dumb and whatever you type will probably be interesting.

 

[V_K]

Now ask youself this: if I enjoyed this puzzle, would I ask for spoilers?

 

[Nyast]

The funny thing is that the vast majority of puzzles in this game are of the navigational type. A lot of them can be summed up as: use object X on area Y to open up area Z.

 

[V_K]

The funny thing is that the vast majority of puzzles in this game are of the navigational type. A lot of them can be summed up as: use object X on area Y to open up area Z.

The differece is, they're not trying to confuse you. The thing I hate about early-Wiz style "puzzles" (spinners, one-way passages, hidden teleporters) is that they boil down to the game trying to cheat you into screwing up your maps and loosing your way. Most of the puzzles in 7 Mages aren't like that: your goal is always very clear and all you have to do it to figure out how to get there. The Labyrinth is the unfortunate exception.

 

[Nyast]

Yeah. I also like the fact that each area has its own twist. It's pretty refreshing. The underwater area for example.

Spoiler

You need to use the moses song to open the water around you and breath. The interesting twist is that it only lasts until you keep singing. Therefore you have to manage your mana ( which isn't that hard ), but it also means you can't sleep. When a monster enters the moses area around you, it suddenly becomes unable to swim and might even fall down into a pit to the bottom floor due to gravity. There are a lot of good ideas in that game.

 

[aweigh]

Nyast

there is truth in what you say man. however "traditionally" if an object is involved then it is not a classic Wiz-style dungeon navigational puzzle. Why? because it wasn't until wiz 6 that the inventory restrictions were lifted. in wiz 1-5 you can't spare a single slot for something not essential; you can't just be carrying around puzzle objects.

COINCIDENTALLY it was when bradley was hired for wiz 6 that one of the many, many, MANY things that he executed from traditoinal Wiz formula was exactly that! every char now had an item bad capable of holding 20 objs. what for? motherfucking puzzles.

from it's very SOUL, it's very CORE classic Wiz was never about puzzles and a simple (seemingly) mechanic such as restricted inventory space serves many functions and one of them is that it achives it's goal(s) of making the player micro manage the macro of the dungeon logistics because they did not have in mind from the start the player ever needing to carry non-Loot junk.

nothing wrong with the introduction of puzzles-that-require-an-item from wiz 5 onwards but... well, you know the rest.

EDIT: YES I know wiz 4 has tons of item puzzles. they also give a box of infinite holding. it was not meant to supplant the regular wiz series formula. wiz 4 is it's own seperate thing. in fact V_K would probably enjoy it quite a lot. it's as different from Wiz than even Bradley's own games.

Don't believe me? Ok fine. here's the thing... in wiz 4 you don't earn EXP or GP. BOOM. mind blowing. werdna's goal is to escape / i.e. "solve" each room to advance to the top-- he doesn't earn xp or gold and there are no stores so fighting is best avoided ALWAYS; and he's a mage so he can equip almost nothing so when you can't avoid a fight most if not all of the loot is completely worthless to you. it is literally the anti-Wiz.

look at these beautifully designed wiz 4 floors:

 

[Grauken]

Have you ever played Mordor?

 

[aweigh]

no, i've only played Demise Ascension. morder looks sweet tho', i loove how it looks (i researched it when i was doing a compilation of all tb crawlers); in fact its UI/etc looks way better and efficient than the messy Demise.

question: is mordoer 100% tb or is it hybrid system like Demise?

 

[Roqua]

no, i've only played Demise Ascension. morder looks sweet tho', i loove how it looks (i researched it when i was doing a compilation of all tb crawlers); in fact its UI/etc looks way better and efficient than the messy Demise.

question: is mordoer 100% tb or is it hybrid system like Demise?

I can't believe how much they are still charging for this.