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A conversation with a gaming journalist

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
In case you missed it, it's a conclusion of a long story that started here:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=19423

deadairis said:
You know, I wrote everything I wrote to you under the assumption that you wouldn't be trustworthy enough to keep it private, but hoping that I would be wrong.
Why do lots of indie studios never make it? Well, in part, because their members do things like publish private conversations. I'll still pass on what I think of your website to our PC side, but the fact that you're so unprofessional that you can't keep a private message private speaks volumes.
Reply:

VD said:
deadairis said:
You know, I wrote everything I wrote to you under the assumption that you wouldn't be trustworthy enough to keep it private...
To keep what private? That you'll pass the site to someone else? Come on, Patrick, be serious. I've shared no information that could be considered confidential. Again, all you stated basically is that you'll pass the info to someone else and you stated your opinion on indie games in general. I don't see what a big deal is.

Why do lots of indie studios never make it?
Dunno. They suck at making games and/or they suck at running businesses and/or they suck at marketing their games?

Well, in part, because their members do things like publish private conversations.
Yes, that must be why.

I'll still pass on what I think of your website to our PC side, but the fact that you're so unprofessional that you can't keep a private message private speaks volumes.
Horrible, I know.

Anyway, you are an alright guy, but you tend to take some things personally.
Reply:

deadairis said:
Man, I don't have to prove this to you. You asked why people are hesitant to cover indies -- here's one reason.
Unprofessionalism -- and then an attitude that there's a right to be unprofessional. Sure, enjoy being unprofessional -- but don't expect anyone to want to work with you. If you don't have the common sense to realize that something sent privately is private, sorry.
The forum seems like decent guys, but you guys seem so happy to be marginalized and left behind that you've come up with a hundred reasons why the behaviors that make it impossible to communicate with the community prove the community was right all along.

Honestly, this is just like misquoting and being offended that someone won't play along -- you can't just misquote someone and then be upset because your made-up quote was what "you thought they meant."

You asked why a major studio can put out some screens and get coverage and your website probably isn't good enough? If it was up to me, I wouldn't give it coverage, because I've seen two instances of deal-breaking unprofessionalism from you in less than a week: misquoting someone and not retracting it; and publishing private conversations at all, let alone not retracting them.

You can think they're okay all day long, but that's the answer. No amount of your reasoning will make it anything else. It might not be what you want professionalism to be, but that won't help you get your game featured -- let alone published.
Reply:

VD said:
deadairis said:
Man, I don't have to prove this to you.
I know. You like stating things. Proving is beneath you.

You asked why people are hesitant to cover indies -- here's one reason.
And why is that? Let's say you tell your readers about a game that will later get canceled. So what?

Unprofessionalism -- and then an attitude that there's a right to be unprofessional.
Unprofessional is just a fancy word that means nothing UNLESS proved by facts. Posting a private message that contained NOTHING is not unprofessional. Sharing confidential info is.

Honestly, this is just like misquoting and being offended that someone won't play along -- you can't just misquote someone and then be upset because your made-up quote was what "you thought they meant."
I quoted you correctly twice without getting any reply from you. Then I made a mistake - which I accepted - and you saw an opportunity and went for the "I was misquoted!" kill.

You asked why a major studio can put out some screens and get coverage and your website probably isn't good enough? If it was up to me, I wouldn't give it coverage, because I've seen two instances of deal-breaking unprofessionalism from you in less than a week: misquoting someone and not retracting it; and publishing private conversations at all, let alone not retracting them.
Then don't give it any coverage. Does it look to you like I'm begging for it? I asked you if this stuff would be interesting to your readers. That's all. Also, it's not about me and how big of an ass I am. It's about the game. Nothing else.

It might not be what you want professionalism to be, but that won't help you get your game featured -- let alone published.
I have four publishing offers (not that I'm interested in them). Must be figments of my imagination. Btw, you sound kinda bitter, Patrick. Why is that?
Reply:

deadairis said:
What more proof do you need?
I make, every day, decisions about what games to cover. I don't need to ask anyone about this -- the proof is whether I decide to cover or something or not. What more proof do you need as to whether a gaming editor would consider you professional than whether a gaming editor considers you professional?
Honestly, what?
You can claim you're right all you like. But wait: that still doesn't get you coverage.
If I sound bitter, it's because it's depressing to see what appears to be an intelligent community that's so happy losing -- not getting coverage, not having their concerns addressed, not having games made the way they want them made, not having games covered the way they want them covered -- that they've insured they'll always lose.
It's not bitterness, it's the sad revulsion of someone watching someone else cut off their nose to spite their face, and when you try to offer them another option have them yell at you for siding with their face.
But, enjoy being unpromoted, unpublished, and having franchises you care about not give a second glance at what you want -- all the while being "right."
Reply:

VD said:
deadairis said:
I make, every day, decisions about what games to cover. I don't need to ask anyone about this -- the proof is whether I decide to cover or something or not. What more proof do you need as to whether a gaming editor would consider you professional than whether a gaming editor considers you professional?
Honestly, what?
*patiently* Patrick, you do realize that what you've just told me is that because you are the one who decides what to cover, you also decide what professional is and isn't. Sounds awfully subjective.

You can claim you're right all you like. But wait: that still doesn't get you coverage.
Still doesn't? Shit! I'll perform a ritual suicide after I send you this message.

If I sound bitter, it's because it's depressing to see what appears to be an intelligent community that's so happy losing -- not getting coverage, not having their concerns addressed, not having games made the way they want them made, not having games covered the way they want them covered -- that they've insured they'll always lose.
I already know that I shouldn't bother asking for proof? At best I would get something like: because I, the mighty gaming editor, told you so!

But, enjoy being unpromoted, unpublished, and having franchises you care about not give a second glance at what you want -- all the while being "right."
Pure gold, Patrick. Thanks.
Reply:

deadairis said:
Sounds like the last horse finally crossed the finish line.
There's some basic standards to professionalism in the journalism industry -- and, unsurprisingly, someone who works in that industry knows them better than you. Why does this continue to be impossible for you to understand? How can you possibly think you know the industry standards of behavior better than someone in it? No matter how right you think you are -- and the rest of the forum tells you you are -- the industries you're concerned about don't care if you can't meet our standards of behaviour. And if you're just too happy being right to accept information about how you can, I don't know, get coverage for your game ever, what's your goal? Being right, or making your game a success?
Why would I trick you about professional standards? Do you really think that's how anyone actually operates?
And as for what get's covered? It is subjective. Why does that surprise you? There's not a sign in sheet where you're guaranteed coverage. You need to be able to show that you aren't too stupid to talk to if anyone is going to talk to you -- and that's where the standards of professionalism come in.
Don't believe me? No skin off of my nose, man. Enjoy being right.


As for the rest...well, enjoy being right, man. I'm sure the Fallout you guys want will get made...anyyyy day now.
Any day now.
Reply:

VD said:
deadairis said:
Why does this continue to be impossible for you to understand? How can you possibly think you know the industry standards of behavior better than someone in it?
Did I say that? Or you are trying to win again by pretending I said or implied something I didn't?

Being right, or making your game a success?
Unlike you, I'm not very concerned with "being right" all the time. I want the game to be successful, obviously

Why would I trick you about professional standards? Do you really think that's how anyone actually operates?
Again, did I say that? I said that professional standards are a very subjective thing and what one person in the same industry finds unacceptable, another may find very acceptable.

And as for what get's covered? It is subjective. Why does that surprise you?
It doesn't.

There's not a sign in sheet where you're guaranteed coverage.
Did I come into your office demanding coverage?

You need to be able to show that you aren't too stupid to talk to if anyone is going to talk to you...

I thank you for the valuable life lesson.
Reply:

deadairis said:
You're trying to claim that I can't simply tell you the industry standards without proving them. That implies that yes, you know better. So, yes, you did.

But someone in the industry told you what a given standard is and you simply said that I was wrong. Why would you possibly know better than me?

No, but you stated that who gets coverage is subjective, as if that was anything but an idiot's complaint.
Reply:

VD said:
deadairis said:
What a load of crap. For someone who complained about being misquoted, you've managed to distort every point I made and replace it with something stupid, which then you eagerly attacked.

Anyway, I guess there is no reason to keep arguing back and forth. Anyway, I don't really care whether you give the game some coverage or not. You can even go ahead and bitch about how unprofessional the Codex is and me in particular. I honestly don't care. However, I'd like to invite you to stay and post, assuming your massive ego can accept this proposition.

Best wishes and all that.
Reply:

deadairis said:
See, how do I have the massive ego for presuming to know the standards of my own industry?
Honestly, how can you even think that, and not "man, I know this guy's industry better than he does...wait, no he probably does. I'm suffering from massive ego issues!"
I'll be happy to stay and post, remove the weasel tag.
Reply:

VD said:
deadairis said:
See, how do I have the massive ego for presuming to know the standards of my own industry?
No, you have the massive ego for thinking that you are always right and running away when you got the "weasel" tag, which was harmless and humorous.

I'll be happy to stay and post, remove the weasel tag.
I didn't give it to you, so I'm not the one to remove it. I'll pass on your request though.
Reply:

deadairis said:
But, you're asking me to prove I'm right on things like "how does the industry work?" "How can you possibly know more than us?"
I know how the industry works because I work in it.
I know more than you guys do because that's my job.
I don't have to prove it. Accept it at face value or have one more member of the journalistic and publishing communities write off the hardcore as too happy proving each other right to be of any value to anyone but themselves.
Reply:

VD said:
deadairis said:
But, you're asking me to prove I'm right on things like "how does the industry work?" "How can you possibly know more than us?"
I never asked you these questions.

I know how the industry works because I work in it.
I know more than you guys do because that's my job.
Great. Now, I know you gonna love it, but guess what? That's my job too. I personally know many developers, I was invited to GDC and E3 (not as a friend, but as a journalist), including special presentations for limited audience. I interviewed Bioware, Obsidian, Piranha Bites, Radon Lab, and other less known developers. A lot of developers visit the Codex quite often. In other words, there is no need to so arrogant around these parts.

I don't have to prove it.
I never get tired of reading this. Post it again!

Accept it at face value or have one more member of the journalistic and publishing communities write off the hardcore as too happy proving each other right to be of any value to anyone but themselves.
Like we give a damn. You have my permission to write off anything that makes you happy.

:salute:
Reply:

deadairis said:
You: "Vice President, Sales & Marketing in a 500-employee company. Will be 37 in September. Was it enlightening enough for you?"
You: I was invited to GDC and E3 (not as a friend, but as a journalist)

So, you're a journalist? Right now? We're in the same job?
Or are you in Sales and Marketing, right now?
Honestly, how can you waive the "oh no, arrogance!" flag when you're defending misquoting someone and making private messages public?

Which company are you a journalist/Vice President for?
And are you the VP of Sales & Marketing, or are you a journalist?

VD said:
deadairis said:
You: "Vice President, Sales & Marketing in a 500-employee company. Will be 37 in September. Was it enlightening enough for you?"
You: I was invited to GDC and E3 (not as a friend, but as a journalist)

So, you're a journalist? Right now?
I interview developers and write reviews and articles in my free time. As a hobby. If that's not journalism, I don't know what is.

Or are you in Sales and Marketing, right now?
That's my full time job at the moment.

Honestly, how can you waive the "oh no, arrogance!" flag when you're defending misquoting someone and making private messages public?
I simply explained my position. Wouldn't call that arrogance.

Which company are you a journalist/Vice President for?
And are you the VP of Sales & Marketing, or are you a journalist?
Can I be both or there are rules for that too. Or wait, I'm also a game developer.
Reply:

deadairis said:
Ahh, so you're not a professional journalist. It is NOT your profession, or job?
Let's see what you said about journalism:
"Great. Now, I know you gonna love it, but guess what? That's my job too. "
"job: occupation: the principal activity in your life that you do to earn money"
"(Sales and Marketing) 's my full time job at the moment."

Really? So, journalisms not your job. But you just told me it was...
Guess who just got caught in a bald-faced lie?
So, the rules that apply too professionals might not be something you actually know very well, huh?

"I interview developers and write reviews and articles in my free time. As a hobby. If that's not journalism, I don't know what is."
It's amateur journalism, with no responsibility or accountability.
The issue isn't that you're getting paid; the issue is that you have no one to hold you to basic standards.
Such as not claiming something is your job when it's a lie.

"I simply explained my position. Wouldn't call that arrogance."
Your position goes contrary to the standards of the journalistic community, the academic community, and at the very least, the financial and entertainment industry communities. You lied about having a job as a journalist.
So, you don't think it's arrogant to hold to your position for no reason other than you think you're right, or to lie bald-faced?
What would you think is arrogant?
Reply:

VD said:
deadairis said:
Ahh, so you're not a professional journalist. It is NOT your profession, or job?
Let's see what you said about journalism:
"Great. Now, I know you gonna love it, but guess what? That's my job too. "
"job: occupation: the principal activity in your life that you do to earn money"
"(Sales and Marketing) 's my full time job at the moment."

Really? So, journalisms not your job. But you just told me it was...
Guess who just got caught in a bald-faced lie?
*shakes head* Have you not heard of volunteer jobs? Of people doing something in their free time like helping poor, providing information, helping with political campaigns, dealing with shelter animals? Yeah, sure, you caught me in a bald-faced lie....

It's amateur journalism, with no responsibility or accountability.
The highlight is mine.

"I simply explained my position. Wouldn't call that arrogance."
Your position goes contrary to the standards of the journalistic community, the academic community, and at the very least, the financial and entertainment industry communities. You lied about having a job as a journalist.
Patrick, at this point I have no choice but to assume that you are an idiot. Have yourself a great day.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
3,608
I actually laughed out loud. It doesn't happen often, not at all. Thank you.

You're a first-rate clown, Patrick. I liked it especially when you name-dropped the academic community and the financial industry, seeing how I'm quite well acquainted with them, and don't believe them to take kindly to clowns, either.

It's sad, and funny. A tragicomedy for the ages.
 

callehe

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Messages
459
Location
Gothic Castle
VD: 5+6=11 AND 4+7=11
Weasel: OMGWTFBBQ, how can this be?? you fucking liar VD!!!1

Aw man, this is too funny. And sad at the same time. With "journalists" like these, there's no wonder the gamers are getting more and more stupid for every new console generation.
 

Tinkies

Novice
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
40
Damn, he loves saying how VD is "unprofessional". OMG, deadaires is Mr. Pink!
 

MF

The Boar Studio
Patron
Developer
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Messages
892
Location
Amsterdam
Didn't he get bitter after you told him about your day job? I think he was under the assumption that he was dealing with an unemployed guy slaving away on a game and an RPG site in his mother's basement, basking in his own relative glory just when you showed him just how relative that glory was by inadvertently juxtaposing your success in life with his half-ass job.

Personally, I think this whole journalism argument is retarded. If you want to discuss the semantics of journalism, look here. Patrick takes it to a whole new level by arguing about professional ethics and meta-morality without addressing any of your comments.
 

Punck_D

Novice
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Messages
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right behind you
The VD=liar thing was hilarious and how Patrick tried to stick to it, just to have a point saying "I am teh winn!!1", just like that misquoting affair. Poor desperate guy, stupid always loses.
 

Amasius

Augur
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Messages
959
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Thanatos
Heh, I even agree that publishing PMs is unprofessional, but VD never claimed to be professional and since most professional gaming "journalists" have abandoned candid coverage I stick to the unprofessional und rude, but honest Codex.

Its telling that not even some of our resident dumbfucks jumped in to defend the weasel just to stir some trouble up.
 

galsiah

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
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Your unprofessionalism is showing VD.
Don't you realise that there are people out there who will pay for your services? Yet there you are giving it up for free. I call that immoral. Where's your accountability? Where's the fat guy to abuse you and withhold payment if you're doing it wrong? Where's the sense of self-worth you get when throwing in your own unique tricks for a little something extra?

Also, please don't show such unrespect, criticalment and diskindness to someone with such disunprofessionalismship.
He's a writer you know. [your jest a lyre]
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
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Messages
29,683
Location
About 8 meters beneath sea level.
Though gamespy is shit, just like 90% of all game sites.

Well, if a guy has been doing his best trying to debate a full forum of bored guys picking apart his every sentence, it's not that wierd that he gets pissed off eventually. I'm amazed that he stayed civil for that long.

This thread is a bit childish VD, just as the entire thread that you took quotes from was rather embaressing after awhile. It's like a crowd beating someone to a pulp and then kicking him when he's down.
 

Calis

Pensionado
Joined
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Messages
1,834
Tinkies said:
Damn, he loves saying how VD is "unprofessional". OMG, deadaires is Mr. Pink!
Look, with threads like this, the "unprofessional" part gains a bit of credibility. I do agree with a weasel thing though and VD/DU were firmly in the right in the entire preview discussion, but these kinds of threads continue to show how Codex is at the best on the fringe of journalism, even though in a number of areas (guts and analytical depth) the people who write here are well above the vast majority of gaming publication out there. Not that I'm saying the Codex should be anything other than it is, mind you. In other words, what Amasius said. :)
 

Calis

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Messages
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Fallout_Fan_VII said:
I honestly don't know if I should laugh or cry. It's not like I had any respect for GameSpy to begin with, but this guy just validates everything I thought of the place.
Calling Gamespy the evil empire is so 1998. I would also like to go on record saying that at least two Gamespy writers are stand-up guys (Magedragon and Kyote). Gamespy is no worse than any (well, most) of the other commercial gaming press, online or offline.
 

galsiah

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Location
Montreal
Re: Though gamespy is shit, just like 90% of all game sites.

Trash said:
This thread is a bit childish VD...
Perhaps it is. However, deadairis wrote the first PM in this chain knowing that VD had publicly posted his previous one. If he didn't consider these might go public, there's something wrong with him.

just as the entire thread that you took quotes from was rather embaressing after awhile. It's like a crowd beating someone to a pulp and then kicking him when he's down.
Maybe so - yet there were two professional journalists involved in that thread from very early on. One managed to maintain respect, dignity and a fair amount of reason; one didn't.

Also, any professional journalist should expect to piss people off and to get flack for it. It comes with the territory. Even good journalists will take fire from some quarters. A little sense isn't really too much to expect: either enough sense to make a reasonable - if arguable - case, or enough sense to leave. Do neither for over 10 pages and you've no-one but yourself to blame.
 

mouflon

Novice
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Feb 21, 2007
Messages
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In a dark, dark town, on a dark, dark street, with
yeesh. It's people like this that make me want to get a tub of chloroform and an inking needle and grow a secret identity sneaking about and tattooing 'Grow the fuck up' on the inside of people's eyelids.

Comments like:
You asked why people are hesitant to cover indies -- here's one reason. Unprofessionalism -- and then an attitude that there's a right to be unprofessional.
to me, pretty much sum up everything that's wrong with the world, not just the gaming industry. The idea that honesty and professionalism are mutually exclusive, that everyone has to tailor everything they say to suit the most incapable minds it may eventually reach, because when some idiot pops a bollock over some trivial shite the laws of 'professionalism' dictate that nobody else is allowed to call a spade a spade, or an infantile fuckwit an infantile fuckwit.

I think if all developers took VDs route of being brutally honest and expecting brutal honesty in return, we'd be much better off - but that's assuming 'better' refers to integrity, rather than profit margins. It's what makes the codex what it is in the first place - threads aren't locked, nothing you can say is beyond the pale. Because we're all big boys (or girls) now, and if someone prefaces a valid point by saying 'listen, cunts' it remains a valid point. Which is why you'll get more valuable discussion in one decent codex thread where every third post is a threat of physical violence than you'll get in the entirety of all 'professional' gaming forums combined.

And besides, didn't this whole epic start off with the premise that what gaming journalism calls 'professionalism', the rest of us call rapant stupidity?

~M

I feel better now.
 

Kingston

Arcane
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
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I lack the wit to put something hilarious here
I know the journalism industry rather well. I have got to say this guy is one of the most unprofessional journalist I have ever seen. He can't seem to comprehend any of the points VD makes, he starts twisting words and he is generally all over the place. VD catches him on a vast volume of subjects and when he thinks he has caught VD on something he is jumping around proclaiming it off hilltops.

And truly, very arrogant most of the time.

I guess that's why he is in the gaming front.
 

Tinkies

Novice
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
40
Calis said:
Tinkies said:
Damn, he loves saying how VD is "unprofessional". OMG, deadaires is Mr. Pink!
Look, with threads like this, the "unprofessional" part gains a bit of credibility. I do agree with a weasel thing though and VD/DU were firmly in the right in the entire preview discussion, but these kinds of threads continue to show how Codex is at the best on the fringe of journalism, even though in a number of areas (guts and analytical depth) the people who write here are well above the vast majority of gaming publication out there. Not that I'm saying the Codex should be anything other than it is, mind you. In other words, what Amasius said. :)

I agree with you there; I myself like to have a bit of privacy, and all these threads about this are a tad annoying. I was just kind of wondering why he couldn't seem to expand his vocabulary a little bit. Mr. Pink is just what sort of came to mind. "I'm the only one acting like a fucking professional" and so on. Also, his tantrum struck me as equally unprofessional, if not more so, then VD's airing out their private moments together.
 

callehe

Liturgist
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Dec 5, 2004
Messages
459
Location
Gothic Castle
talking about misquoting; he's the guy that said that fallout fans claimed the war never happened on the east coast (in the fallout universe). double standards seems to be this guys forte. I'm glad that he managed to gut himself so humorously in the end.
 

Bladderfish

Augur
Joined
Apr 10, 2006
Messages
125
Oh look! Another example of an utterly futile internet debate!

In real life, this sort of crap would have either ended in a fight where someone wins, or, if one of the parties has a set of balls, in the unrighteous man backing down and admitting he was wrong.

In cyber-limbo, its just a waste of fucking time and energy to read and write. I wonder why we bother. I guess this age of decadence gives us ample time to waste!

Although ... it is interesting to see how corrupt and small-minded some of the mainstream gaming journalists are. I salute you for that, if nothing else.
 

AnalogKid

Scholar
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Nov 24, 2005
Messages
291
Location
SoCal
Bladderfish said:
Oh look! Another example of an utterly futile internet debate!
See, the thing about the original thread that makes it unique is that it wasn't just another no-one-wins debate. I've hardly ever seen such an obvious and factually provable loser anywhere on teh intarnats. The fact that part of his provably wrong BS was his high-horse stance about how detailed and professional he is, well that's just a layer of delicious irony topping.

What I'm most sad about is that because lots of the posts grew so huge, no one is going to read all 15 pages after the fact, so the truth will have to be carried on in our hearts and minds...

About the gloating: that's why we let trolls be trolls here. There's a great .sig about feeding them for our amusement (think it was a Saint original quote). They try to have their fun being stupid, and we have our fun watching them flounder and twist and, really, kick themselves while they're down. Based on the PM's I no longer think he was really trolling, I just think he's a useless, useless human being. Still, freakshows can be as entertaining as intentional comedians.

Bladderfish said:
Although ... it is interesting to see how corrupt and small-minded some of the mainstream gaming journalists are. I salute you for that, if nothing else.
Nothing to say about this, just wanted to repeat it. :P
 

MF

The Boar Studio
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Developer
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Messages
892
Location
Amsterdam
I wish there was a conclusion to all this.
There is :

Never attribute to malice what can satisfactorily be explained away by stupidity.
 

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