"Against the cult of simplicity" - Craig Stern on how the indie clique hates complex games

[tuluse]

storyfaggotry instead of actual games... adventure games

fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

 

[buzz]

Fuck you too, you know what I'm talking about.

 

[Infinitron]

buzz makes some good points, but he's not looking at the whole picture. Fact is, the most popular games and genres in the world today are non-story driven.

 

[Jigawatt]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/313340/

Jesus Christ those endorsements:

"Welcome to an existential nightmare."
- Patrick Klepek, Giant Bomb

"The time I spend with Mountain feels slightly more real to me than anything else inside my computer."
- Leigh Alexander, Gamasutra

"“Mountain” upends expectations, refusing to fit into preexisting categories."
- Justin Cone, Motionographer

"I don’t like to talk emotions but this game genuinely is so uplifting."
- Alice O'Connor, Rock Paper Shotgun

"The only experience that has ever made me feel sad about a geological phenomenon."
- Andrew Webster, The Verge

No surprise to see all the usual suspects of course. If they hadn't all proven to be completely irredeemable fuckwits I'd want to shake them and yell 'get some fucking perspective!'

 

[Cadmus]

They should make a game called "You're a retard". It should cost 60 EUR and upon launching the game, you'd get a message written with broken grammar, just to reinforce the point that nobody gave a shit.
"Youe are a retard for baying this shit game, fock you."

"This game put my life in perspective"
- IGN, 10/10

"The answer is here, games ARE art!"
- Kotaku 10/10


I don't know. By now, you can't even get mad at them, they are so retarded they probably piss their pants.

 

[Western]

buzz makes some good points, but he's not looking at the whole picture. Fact is, the most popular games and genres in the world today are non-story driven.

Buzz is hyperbolising but I don't really buy zero sum logic regardless, when I play Age of Decadence I feel like I get to eat my cake and have it to, also consider the success of Divinity Original Sin, that game is a failure as a story fag game but it shows there's an appetite for abstraction in games. Something doesn't need to be as simulationist as possible if you can make more abstract systems like turn-based combat engaging.

The decline is/was simply the result of needing to cast a wider and wider net for larger audiences, if the market can allow for the return of AA development in niches, there'll be development to satisfy our niche tastes (whilst AAA can still cater to hordes of dribbling retards).

 

[Lyric Suite]

I don't care what a game is as long as it is good at what it does. Indie games aren't good at what they do. Torment was good at what it did. This ain't rocket science.

 

[Tehdagah]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/313340/

Jesus Christ those endorsements:

"Welcome to an existential nightmare."
- Patrick Klepek, Giant Bomb

"The time I spend with Mountain feels slightly more real to me than anything else inside my computer."
- Leigh Alexander, Gamasutra

"“Mountain” upends expectations, refusing to fit into preexisting categories."
- Justin Cone, Motionographer

"I don’t like to talk emotions but this game genuinely is so uplifting."
- Alice O'Connor, Rock Paper Shotgun

"The only experience that has ever made me feel sad about a geological phenomenon."
- Andrew Webster, The Verge

No surprise to see all the usual suspects of course. If they hadn't all proven to be completely irredeemable fuckwits I'd want to shake them and yell 'get some fucking perspective!'

At first I thought those quotes were jokes or fakes.

Then I googled...

 

[Angthoron]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/313340/

Jesus Christ those endorsements:

"Welcome to an existential nightmare."
- Patrick Klepek, Giant Bomb

"The time I spend with Mountain feels slightly more real to me than anything else inside my computer."
- Leigh Alexander, Gamasutra

"“Mountain” upends expectations, refusing to fit into preexisting categories."
- Justin Cone, Motionographer

"I don’t like to talk emotions but this game genuinely is so uplifting."
- Alice O'Connor, Rock Paper Shotgun

"The only experience that has ever made me feel sad about a geological phenomenon."
- Andrew Webster, The Verge

No surprise to see all the usual suspects of course. If they hadn't all proven to be completely irredeemable fuckwits I'd want to shake them and yell 'get some fucking perspective!'

At first I thought that those quotes were jokes.

Then I googled...

How does this deserve attention? This is basically a throwback to procedural generation-based screensavers of the 90ies - like Pipes on Windows, or idk wat on Mac (okay that was actually pretty cool, it procedurally generated various planet landshafts bit by bit, pretty cool to look at). This isn't new, I don't see why indie scene should support this throwback to yesteryear.

 

[dryan]

merde d'artiste

 

[Jigawatt]

I don't see why indie scene should support this throwback to yesteryear.

The creator:

David OReilly is an Irish filmmaker and artist based in Los Angeles

Now do you see? DO YOU SEE!!?

 

[Angthoron]

I don't see why indie scene should support this throwback to yesteryear.

The creator:

David OReilly is an Irish filmmaker and artist based in Los Angeles

Now do you see? DO YOU SEE!!?

Am actually referencing this lovely bit of hypocrisy:

Tags: Aterdux Entertainment; Craig Stern; Legends of Eisenwald; Sinister Design

Yesterday, the developers of Legends of Eisenwald published a new developer diary blog post on their site. The main topic of the post was their attempt to apply to this year's IndieCade. In case you didn't know, IndieCade is an annual indie games festival, described on Wikipedia as "the video game industry's Sundance", which is "focused on innovation and artistry in interactive media, helping to create a public perception of games as rich, diverse, artistic, and culturally significant". Here's how it went down:

In the beginning of the summer we applied with our game to IndieCade. We didn’t have many hopes to start with. Looking at the screenshots that are published on Facebook page of this festival one could think that indie games for them are almost exclusively pixel art, simple mechanics and other attributes of modern pop-culture. So, the response we were not selected for the final part did not surprise us. To the standard response there were attached a few sentences of a juror or a few of them:

"I kind of don’t get it… When the game is defined as a “classic old school RPG with tactical turn-based battles, simple economic model” why would you enter it in indiecade?"

"It seems weird to me, with no hook, no novelty and no tutorial, the game feels… Well, like a 90s game. It’s a “classic, yes, but “old school” doesn’t have to mean “old”."​

"This game is an impressive technical achievement! Indiecade however looks for games that innovate in design or other categories, and Legends of Eisenwald is largely a worthy but loyal recreation of a well-trodden category."​

​

 

[Jigawatt]

Yeah, I get that. All I'm saying (albeit obtusely because this whole thing pisses me off) is that there is no rhyme or reason when it comes to supporting west coast hipsters. In fact those comments betray the fact that the judges probably never used a PC/Mac in 90s let alone played any games on them. Saying something feels like a 90s game is just a post hoc rationalisation for dismissing something the judge can't relate to and feels challenged by without admitting any sort of personal failing.

 

[Angthoron]

In a way this is a result of postmodernist vision of "art". Everyone can apparently be an artist now, but since in practice most people lack either the talent or the skill for it, it means that the definition of what art is should be dropped to the floor so drawing a line with your own fecal matter becomes an artwork that can be put in line with the works of Renaissance painters as long as you shout long enough that it's actually a piece of art. Now that gaming has apparently become an art form, a ton of talentless hacks rushed in to claim the spots of DaVinci, Shakespeare etc of gaming, reasonably arguing that no matter what, the rest of the medium will compare to them. At the same time, they deny art value to previous games, and to games actually created by professional or talented people.

Thanks postmodernism Obama!

 

[Delterius]

In a way this is a result of postmodernist vision of "art". Everyone can apparently be an artist now, but since in practice most people lack either the talent or the skill for it, it means that the definition of what art is should be dropped to the floor so drawing a line with your own fecal matter becomes an artwork that can be put in line with the works of Renaissance painters as long as you shout long enough that it's actually a piece of art. Now that gaming has apparently become an art form, a ton of talentless hacks rushed in to claim the spots of Citizen Kane, etc of gaming, reasonably arguing that no matter what, the rest of the medium will compare to them. At the same time, they deny art value to previous games, and to games actually created by professional or talented people.

Thanks postmodernism Obama!

Fixed.

 

[Angthoron]

In a way this is a result of postmodernist vision of "art". Everyone can apparently be an artist now, but since in practice most people lack either the talent or the skill for it, it means that the definition of what art is should be dropped to the floor so drawing a line with your own fecal matter becomes an artwork that can be put in line with the works of Renaissance painters as long as you shout long enough that it's actually a piece of art. Now that gaming has apparently become an art form, a ton of talentless hacks rushed in to claim the spots of Citizen Kane, etc of gaming, reasonably arguing that no matter what, the rest of the medium will compare to them. At the same time, they deny art value to previous games, and to games actually created by professional or talented people.

Thanks postmodernism Obama!

Fixed.

Yeah, good point. Most of these lazy assholes seem to come from Media Studies anyway.

 

[Jigawatt]

In a way this is a result of postmodernist vision of "art". Everyone can apparently be an artist now, but since in practice most people lack either the talent or the skill for it, it means that the definition of what art is should be dropped to the floor so drawing a line with your own fecal matter becomes an artwork that can be put in line with the works of Renaissance painters as long as you shout long enough that it's actually a piece of art. Now that gaming has apparently become an art form, a ton of talentless hacks rushed in to claim the spots of DaVinci, Shakespeare etc of gaming, reasonably arguing that no matter what, the rest of the medium will compare to them. At the same time, they deny art value to previous games, and to games actually created by professional or talented people.

Thanks postmodernism Obama!

Which, to try to swing this back around to the starting topic, is part the reason why the cult of simplicity exists: whilst there's now no longer any hurdles to clear re talent or vision, there is still the objective requirement of delivering a reasonably bug free executable. Each additional interacting system/mechanic makes this harder (exponentially) such that the talentless hacks drop off after their program attempts to do anything more than one thing at a time. Thus for every Super Meat Boy or Hotline Miami* there'll be 100 Mountains in between.

*themselves not overly complicated games but you can feel the engine polish driving them

PS I would brofist a lot of posts in this thread if I could

 

[shihonage]

The reason most indie games are simplistic is because most people don't know how to build games. Even with widespread availability of engines that come with pre-built templates, this has never changed. So now most people can create games with great enthusiasm, but the end result is about as distinguished as anything else made with commonly widespread skill level.

All these games where you watch grass sway, or you press forward while a mysterious narrator wows you with otherworldly philosophy and makes you question your very existence, are merely polished turds.

As I walked up the seemingly infinite staircase, it occurred to me that life is just a series of stairs, one after another, each elevating you a little above where you used to be, and then I remembered grandma's cooking. Who knew such delicacy could be made from a CHILD'S LIVER

Look, I just created a deeply existential horror game!

9/10 "Breathtaking, made me quiver with delight" - RPS

10/10 "Faces agism in an invigorating way" - SuperBunnyhop

10/10 "I felt my heart beat distinctly, and that is where I knew that, in those brief moments, I really lived" - Gamers With Jobs

 

[TheGreatOne]

""It seems weird to me, with no hook, no novelty and no tutorial, the game feels… Well, like a 90s game"
Can't have competently made video games (emphasis on the word video games) ruining their screen saver circle jerk. That quote alone says it all, using 90s in an almost disparaging manner when it's the golden age of gaming. "how 90s", that also sounds very effeminate, something that the guy (I thought he was a butch lesbian before I saw hair in his neck) in that picture would say. "Video games? Like where you collect points, kill enemies and there's a boss battle at the end of the stage? How passé.... how 90s.... our medium has evolved past that... "
Also funny how these people (Phil Phish etc) consider Japan to be "behind the times" when they themselves shit out bad pixel "art" platformers that are poorly designed and can't touch Japanese platforms. Good thing these people have mostly stayed away from shoot em ups and would never dare to touch turn based dungeon crawlers. Though when ever they do make an indy shmup, it's always a) vastly overrated by "game journalists" who dont know shit about shooters and b)vastly inferior and poorly designed compared to proper shoot em ups

I'm a gameplay whore and always will be.

Didn't you post a thread saying first person is better than isometric for RPGs because "immershun"?

 

[Spectacle]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There should be plenty of room for interactive experiences that aren't games, but it's meaningless to shoehorn them into the "games" category just because they run on the same technology.

Indie trash is usually in a separate category though ; shit games.

 

[Destroid]

Tags: Aterdux Entertainment; Craig Stern; Legends of Eisenwald; Sinister Design

Yesterday, the developers of Legends of Eisenwald published a new developer diary blog post on their site. The main topic of the post was their attempt to apply to this year's IndieCade. In case you didn't know, IndieCade is an annual indie games festival, described on Wikipedia as "the video game industry's Sundance", which is "focused on innovation and artistry in interactive media, helping to create a public perception of games as rich, diverse, artistic, and culturally significant". Here's how it went down:

In the beginning of the summer we applied with our game to IndieCade. We didn’t have many hopes to start with. Looking at the screenshots that are published on Facebook page of this festival one could think that indie games for them are almost exclusively pixel art, simple mechanics and other attributes of modern pop-culture. So, the response we were not selected for the final part did not surprise us. To the standard response there were attached a few sentences of a juror or a few of them:

"I kind of don’t get it… When the game is defined as a “classic old school RPG with tactical turn-based battles, simple economic model” why would you enter it in indiecade?"

"It seems weird to me, with no hook, no novelty and no tutorial, the game feels… Well, like a 90s game. It’s a “classic, yes, but “old school” doesn’t have to mean “old”."​

"This game is an impressive technical achievement! Indiecade however looks for games that innovate in design or other categories, and Legends of Eisenwald is largely a worthy but loyal recreation of a well-trodden category."​

I don't see anything particularly wrong with this, as long as IndieCade is upfront about the kinds of games they are interested in looking at. The real downside is if a narrowly focused organisation like IndieCade (and IGF seems mostly interested in the same stuff) comes to represent indies at large.

Perhaps we need a new festival for competently built indiegames that are about systems and mechanics instead of feels.

 

[Delterius]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There should be plenty of room for interactive experiences that aren't games, but it's meaningless to shoehorn them into the "games" category just because they run on the same technology.

More, I'd argue that its both important not to call them games and that people already do so indirectly. No one holds not-games to the same standards as actual games because that would be pointless, if people like the Walking Dead as it is then adding to the gameplay isn't necessarily good for the experience - art direction, voice acting, story, etc.

I don't see anything particularly wrong with this, as long as IndieCade is upfront about the kinds of games they are interested in looking at. The real downside is if a narrowly focused organisation like IndieCade (and IGF seems mostly interested in the same stuff) comes to represent indies at large.

Perhaps we need a new festival for competently built indiegames that are about systems and mechanics instead of feels.

Used to be that to be Indie you had to be a small independent team, that's it. It wasn't an 'aesthetic of mediocrity', it was just a matter of resources. I'd hazard a guess that if this was ten years ago and that a small indie team managed to elevate the standards of development, be it due to technological support, crowdfunding or whatever, that would be cause for celebration across the Indie spectrum.

That people would dare to dream about greater and more involving creations by those same few autheurs. Now however, folks like Aterdeux are too small to act like an Inxile but considered to big and I'd say successful for the Indie scene, which is rather content with more of the same.

 

[dryan]

Tags: Aterdux Entertainment; Craig Stern; Legends of Eisenwald; Sinister Design

Yesterday, the developers of Legends of Eisenwald published a new developer diary blog post on their site. The main topic of the post was their attempt to apply to this year's IndieCade. In case you didn't know, IndieCade is an annual indie games festival, described on Wikipedia as "the video game industry's Sundance", which is "focused on innovation and artistry in interactive media, helping to create a public perception of games as rich, diverse, artistic, and culturally significant". Here's how it went down:

In the beginning of the summer we applied with our game to IndieCade. We didn’t have many hopes to start with. Looking at the screenshots that are published on Facebook page of this festival one could think that indie games for them are almost exclusively pixel art, simple mechanics and other attributes of modern pop-culture. So, the response we were not selected for the final part did not surprise us. To the standard response there were attached a few sentences of a juror or a few of them:

"I kind of don’t get it… When the game is defined as a “classic old school RPG with tactical turn-based battles, simple economic model” why would you enter it in indiecade?"

"It seems weird to me, with no hook, no novelty and no tutorial, the game feels… Well, like a 90s game. It’s a “classic, yes, but “old school” doesn’t have to mean “old”."​

"This game is an impressive technical achievement! Indiecade however looks for games that innovate in design or other categories, and Legends of Eisenwald is largely a worthy but loyal recreation of a well-trodden category."​

I don't see anything particularly wrong with this, as long as IndieCade is upfront about the kinds of games they are interested in looking at. The real downside is if a narrowly focused organisation like IndieCade (and IGF seems mostly interested in the same stuff) comes to represent indies at large.

Perhaps we need a new festival for competently built indiegames that are about systems and mechanics instead of feels.

Perhaps we also need clearer terminology, where "indie game" means what it should mean (independently produced/published, regardless of genre) and "experimental game"/"conceptual game"/"art game" can be used to define that other bullshit.

 

[CyberP]

As someone who wants to go indie and make a gameplay-centric game where the fuck am I meant to turn to? Nobody wants gameplay, it's innovative gimmick, fancy art or pseudo-intellectual story.
Heck, this even applies to mods mind you. Graphics mods draw the crowds, gameplay mods few care for.

How can someone of old school sensibilities survive in the industry? There just doesn't seem to be place for me outside of modding. Being a fucking sell-out and making some dumb ass gimmick game seems to be the sane choice, but I refuse.

Sigh.

 

[Cadmus]

As someone who wants to go indie and make a gameplay-centric game where the fuck am I meant to turn to? Nobody wants gameplay, it's innovative gimmick, fancy art or pseudo-intellectual story.
Heck, this even applies to mods mind you. Graphics mods draw the crowds, gameplay mods few care for.

How can someone of old school sensibilities survive in the industry? There just doesn't seem to be place for me outside of modding. Being a fucking sell-out and making some dumb ass gimmick game seems to be the sane choice, but I refuse.

Sigh.

Duh
just because you like doing something doesnt mean youre supposed to be able to make a living doing it
how unfair