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Age of Conan

Mangoose

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TLDR Secret World combat mechanics < AoC combat mechanics, and changing the mechanics meant spending more money. It's not like the directional combat was an actual change from typical MMO combat. It just added another layer. The way damage, hp, etc was calculated was exactly the same, just that the game forced the player to do extra steps. Extra steps, not change in steps.

Also I'm going to assume (literally assume) AoC had more subscribers than Secret World. AoC's main problem was terrible beta testing/QA, and also maps that got tedious. I think everybody was fine with the mechanics as they were.

OTOH actually one of my chief dislikes of Secret World was the massive amount of mobs. Like, what the fuck? Even disregarding the setting, traveling was fucking annoying like in a JRPG.

Though yes I did love the Investigation missions soooo much.
 

bozia2012

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Heh, I wondered where that butthurt came from - a HoX player lolz. This is probably the most underdeveloped, outdated and misunderstood class in the whole game. 99% players don't know how to play it, chosen few done number crunching and figured which cool looking skills are shit and which totally meh skills actually do good dps etc. While I played other classes quite well in PvE, it was really hard to get a decent build/rotation going for HoX - which Pillar was the best, how to HFB properly (between combo swings biaatch), is it better to focus on melee or fire etc.

Dark Templar and Conq were also kinda crappy back in the day, but both got a revamp and now just melt stuff. DT can't even run full dps spec unless he's tanking (in cloth armor, without shield), because no one can hold VoM aggro (and still be able to switch). Did groups where DT/conq could tank and top the dps parse at the same time.

AoC gives a wide variety of combat styles, from long melee combos (HoX had the longest combos, swing recovery and animations of all classes) to managing aura dmg and instacasts (ToS). Many combos were 1-2 step and using the highest level wasn't the best choice in maaany cases.

Which MMO combat did you like then?

WAR had cool RvR systems, but they didn't work and combat was shit (auto-attack lol). Still, I would play it again.

TL;DR l2p nabs


PS TSW and mob problems? In AoC your character is more sluggish, mobs stay OP even if you have top gear (tons of cc, nasty dots and dmg bonus if >4), you deal less damego if there are more targets etc. In TSW you can cheat with anima form and melee AoE is OP.
 
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rashiakas

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Mangoose

Heh, I remember when AOC was released, my girlfriend played a bear shaman and couldn't beat one of the volcano solo stages. After many tries I told her that I do that passage quickly for her. I died many times. Shortly after, Bear Shaman was buffed. I have a lot of great memories of AOC, even in its bugged state after release it was (and probably still is) the MMO with the absolutely best atmosphere. I even enjoy the great soundtrack once in a while and we (my girlfriend and me) often get a bit nostalgic when we get news from AOC and talking about trying it again.

As for the classes, I think I played every class at least trough Tortage, many to 40-60. I really loved HOX the most, because it was a fast and furious playstyle. Doing tons of damage while eating a lot as well - you really where a glass cannon and skill did matter. Second is the Dark Templar. I think I had more buttons to press with that char then all my wow chars together. The other, pure melee classes like Barbarian or Guardian where kinda boring for me. They where way better at doing content solo and played relatively simple.

As for HOX having less melee combos then the other melee classes, I think you misremember. You had Hell Strikes and Burn to Death as main combos, Pillars of Infernal Flame for AoE and Molten Steel Slash for debuffing. Then you had I Eat your Heart as minion killer and Body and Spirit Wrack against casters. Lastly there was Firelance, a really hard hitting combo. The only offensive spell I can remember was Hellfire Breath. The other spells where utility, snaring or for protection.

In the end, directional attacks just didn't do anything for me no matter what class. It was poorly balanced as well, because some classes had most of their heavy attacks on one side, while others had variation in direction, so you could actually make use of the system. Reading your post it seems like you are more a 'casual' player, while I am mainly doing endgame PVE content (at least in other mmos, AoC had none at release). Might be the reason why I felt more punished by those shields that reduced my dps on some of my characters more then on others while you saw it as a challenging and interesting mechanic.

AoC has everything WoW is lacking in atmosphere, world design and class flavour. Sadly, it is lacking almost anything that keeps me playing WoW as well.
 

Hoaxmetal

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AoC has everything WoW is lacking in atmosphere, world design and class flavour. Sadly, it is lacking almost anything that keeps me playing WoW as well.
At least they both have year long patch cycles.
 

rashiakas

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I think I am pretty good when it comes to mmos, and I also think I played my HOX really well. I had no problem with the content, I just didn't like the system. And yes, I remember using more then one level of Hell Strikes, because of cooldown and execution time. This was part of the fun for me, and I really loved that aspect of the game. But it has nothing to do with shields, because Hell Strikes did damage to the left side (iirc) no matter which level. I even did comboskip which was really effective as a HOX. So no, it is not a l2p issue. Just a matter of taste I guess.
 

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bozia2012

I think I am pretty good when it comes to mmos, and I also think I played my HOX really well. I had no problem with the content, I just didn't like the system. And yes, I remember using more then one level of Hell Strikes, because of cooldown and execution time. This was part of the fun for me, and I really loved that aspect of the game. But it has nothing to do with shields, because Hell Strikes did damage to the left side (iirc) no matter which level. I even did comboskip which was really effective as a HOX. So no, it is not a l2p issue. Just a matter of taste I guess.
So there was something redeeming to AoC's combat?

I started playing shortly before stat revamp - gameplay was much different when gear barely improved your power. Much later they also changed combo damage calculation, skipping was more or less useless and short combos stopped dealing spike damage.

Actually my first toon was HoX on an open PvP server - charge kills, hiding and listening to footsteps in Underhalls... Changed to PvE because I got tired of fighting at the rez pads and retarded guards :)
 

Mangoose

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Heh, I remember when AOC was released, my girlfriend played a bear shaman and couldn't beat one of the volcano solo stages. After many tries I told her that I do that passage quickly for her. I died many times.
:hmmm:

I played at release, and Bear Shaman was my first character.

>Praise HoX for challenge
>Complain that the Bear Shaman is challenging

I think I played every class at least trough Tortage
You learn jack shit about any class in Tortage.

I think I had more buttons to press with [Dark Templars] then all my wow chars together.
Shared Soldier combos http://aoc.wikia.com/wiki/Combos/Soldier + DT combos http://aoc.wikia.com/wiki/Combos/Dark_Templar ~ 10.

And I hope you're not counting 1 hour buffs as "buttons to press."

As for HOX having less melee combos then the other melee classes, I think you misremember.
HoX spells + combos: http://aoc.wikia.com/wiki/Spells/Herald_of_Xotli
Guardian: http://aoc.wikia.com/wiki/Combos/Guardian + shared Soldier combos http://aoc.wikia.com/wiki/Combos/Soldier

It was poorly balanced as well, because some classes had most of their heavy attacks on one side, while others had variation in direction, so you could actually make use of the system.
Except that all Soldiers had a set of shared combos.

Moreover, the point is that you use one directional attack to "force" the NPC to move their shields towards that direction, and then you use the combo you want to use. NPCs didn't keep static shield directions.

BTW, not once did I say the directional attacks were challenging. I said they made me not pass out like I did when I leveled my Shaman alt in WoW. Literally passed out. I'm not exaggerating.

But it has nothing to do with shields, because Hell Strikes did damage to the left side (iirc) no matter which level.
In other words HoX combos were shitty in terms of directions, and you extrapolate that to the conclusion that all the other melee classes are equally shitty in terms of directions. Despite the fact that all Soldier classes automatically 3 shared combos. :roll:

endgame PVE content
Is the shittiest concept in MMOs ever.

The challenge in endgame raiding in MMOs lays on the guild leaders/officers in terms of logistics and management. I know, because I've been in such a position in vanilla. The main "challenge" for a regular raid member is keeping up with gear, not making obvious stupid mistakes, and hoping you don't have retarded people in your raid. If you think gearing is challenge then.. I dunno what to say.

Finally I have no idea why you'd want to do endgame PVE in a game designed with clearly no care for PVE.

I think I am pretty good when it comes to mmos
Unless you're talking about something like Eve Online, DAoC, UO, or being the #1 guild to figure out how to beat an endgame boss, then being "good at MMOs" is like having been potty trained.

I also think I played my HOX really well.
I hope you're not talking about attacking another player while you have the initiative, because HoXs are (or were) so glass cannon that they'll rape if the opponent is not expecting the assault (unless the "victim" is a PoM, in which case you become the victim).
fighting at the rez pads
Oh god.

WAR had cool RvR systems, but they didn't work and combat was shit (auto-attack lol). Still, I would play it again.
How dare you. Chosen aura(stance)-dancing, Black Orc three-step-combos, Disciple of Khaine/Warrior Priest melee-in-order-to-heal (like Bear Shamans, kinda), Engineer/Magus turret classes, Archmage weaving back and forth between healing and damaging spells, and my Squig Herder knocking people off walls and cliffs whenever I could. And then the TANK-based crowd control, which actually made tanks able to tank in PVP because they prevented enemies from running away from them (yeah they had taunts too but I found putting CC on tanks more interesting)

RvR was quite flawed though, I agree. Because (A) RvR DOESN'T WORK WITH AN EVEN NUMBER OF FACTIONS. (B) The only way to take over a tower/castle/whatever was battering ram and then rushing one out of two staircases. Apparently Mythic forgot how to do destructible walls like in DAoC.

Which MMO combat did you like then?
Uh... Planetside? lol.

PS TSW and mob problems?
I meant that they were fucking everywhere and you aggro everything wherever you go.
 

rashiakas

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I think I am pretty good when it comes to mmos, and I also think I played my HOX really well. I had no problem with the content, I just didn't like the system. And yes, I remember using more then one level of Hell Strikes, because of cooldown and execution time. This was part of the fun for me, and I really loved that aspect of the game. But it has nothing to do with shields, because Hell Strikes did damage to the left side (iirc) no matter which level. I even did comboskip which was really effective as a HOX. So no, it is not a l2p issue. Just a matter of taste I guess.
So there was something redeeming to AoC's combat?

I started playing shortly before stat revamp - gameplay was much different when gear barely improved your power. Much later they also changed combo damage calculation, skipping was more or less useless and short combos stopped dealing spike damage.

Actually my first toon was HoX on an open PvP server - charge kills, hiding and listening to footsteps in Underhalls... Changed to PvE because I got tired of fighting at the rez pads and retarded guards :)

Yeah absolutely. As I said, it was a great experience for me, if it had actual PVE content and better polish, we might have sticked to AoC. Only thing I never liked was shields (and the many, many bugs of course).
 

Mangoose

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nice discussion about MMOs.
:lol:

Won't ever happen unless someone's sharing stories about their experiences in UO/Shadowbane/DAoC (sadly, this was before I touched MMOs).

Also Moonguard.

But really, I've read some Shadowbane guild histories and they were pretty fun sounding.
 

Mangoose

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Yeah. Bear in mind I'm not praising Age of Conan terribly (like I said, it just keeps me awake :lol:). I'm just nitpicky. I tried to play again during F2P and I just wasn't interested enough.

As for WAR... honestly, I did like the class mechanics. Not just the "micro" side but the "semi-macro" where for example you can actually Tank in PVP. Also there was collision detection, so you could - and would - literally have an Ironbreaker shield wall at the main gate or sometimes even in an outdoor bottleneck. This is all of course PVP. But they did actually make one innovation in PVE (not endgame, but PVE in general) by introducing Public Quests. They were fun for the first 1/5 or so of the game, and would've been fun... but Mythic forgot that WAR was an RvR game. People didn't or rarely level up doing PVE, especially given that questing was typical MMO fare outside of Public Quests. Eventually they made PQs give points for conquering areas, but that was dumb and make PQs into a chore instead of something done for fun.

IMO basically the issue was content design. (I'm totally going to ignore balance issues). RvR with 2 sides is fucking retarded. Sieging with only one-ish entrance is retarded.

Scenarios were fun though. I can't think of anything significant to complain about those.

---

I'm hoping Eternal Crusade turns out well. I think it will be fun if it's no lower than average, of course without annoying bugs and stuff, because - admittedly I mean subjectively fun - (a) mass shooter/action combat is enjoyable to me, (b) I am 40k fanboy, (c) shooters aren't hard to make fun, it takes terrible bugs and design to fuck one up. Again note "fun" not "good" lol. Also (d) it looks like they're imitating the game Space Marine, which had great mechanics. Hopefully that is the case, and they're not doing something else that is stupid.

---

Oh well, I gave up on hype about MMOs when GW2 came out. I knew it wasn't going to be GW1 caliber of course, but I saw a lot of good ideas - WAR-esque PQs version 2.0 (some "C&C"), 3 faction RvR, no traditional questing... stuff that added up to a "living world."

But it turned out retarded on the stuff I expected to be at least average. Mesmers completely unlike GW1. Fucking cool-down based combat. Tedious waste of time PERSONAL STORY which was not ever emphasized before the game came out. The world getting so repetitive in atmosphere. The "non-traditional" quests being no different from regular MMO quests. PQs that were definitely not WAR v2.0, and the world definitely not living.

Seriously what the fuck was up with the Personal Story bullshit? Totally unnecessary, nobody would've wanted it, and it took away development time and $$ that could've been spent on the rest. It's like they set out to emphasize a few major features.. and then decided to try to do everything.
 

bozia2012

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Black Orc
Triggered.

That was my beloved class, until they "revamped" it and made less intimidating than Choppa (which was bigger than BO when buffed!).

WAR also had this cool thing with some characters changing looks every 10 levels and stylized skill descriptions (greenskins, blackguard etc.) - but sadly it was not consistent.

So much epic in WAR...
 

Mangoose

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Black Orc
Triggered.

That was my beloved class, until they "revamped" it and made less intimidating than Choppa (which was bigger than BO when buffed!).
I only played before the new classes were introduced. Well, I played some afterwards but never touched the Black Orc then.

Seriously the way RvR was implemented was so fucking one-dimensional. I mean isn't RvR supposed to be like.. using strategy and shit? Instead it's just a race of battering down the keep gate before the defenders can kill you off. And then you'd have an annoying battle at the top of the staircase where the defenders would focus fire anyone that popped their heads onto the second floor. Popamole at its finest.

Now sometimes they would do a nice surprise devastating assault from the flank... but I can't think of any other tactic that I've seen happening... besides being sneaky (by sneaky I mean boring) and capturing keeps the enemy wasn't defending.

I also read in the "Return of Reckoning" thread that Bright Wizards got even more imbalanced as the game went on LOL.

So much epic in WAR...
It had a lot of potential and good ideas, yep. I seriously am never going to forget their clever way of making heavily defensive equipped soldiers being useful by making them the CC classes, rather than being the guy everybody simply runs away from as in every other MMO. It's similar to the intention of attacks of opportunity... While the guy is slow and won't alpha strike you like a glass cannon type, you can't just run past him willy-nilly. With AoOs it means ignoring the defensive-biased tank gives the tank the opportunity (lol) to do as much damage as an offensive class. Obviously CC is different mechanically, but in terms of end effect it's similar in that it lets a front-line vanguard actually prevent enemies from rushing past them to the weaker units.

Of course with all the flaws of WAR RvR, that didn't work out except in Scenarios, which is where the PVP managed to shine. Admittedly RvR in any game tends to stalemate as both sides plink at each other, too scared to charge into melee range.

But in any case the RvR implementation was so bad that I just quit. Racing the enemy for conquest points by doing as many PQs as fast as possible was... god fuckign damnit. Maybe the in-city fights would've been fun though.

In WoW I played AV a lot (I like large scale combat). So many times it was just a stalemate with no change in position... people just casting shit and enjoying the meaningless repetitive part of MMO (aka the shittiest part of MMOs). So basically the whole time I would yell at our fucking side to PUSH PUSH PUSH. Helped a lot that I was a Warrior, which meant I could actually initiate an offensive strike, making at least some people follow my example... and also not die because I had enough defense to get back in case. Once in a while I'd (well, we'd) actually manage to get a flanking group going.

Goddamn MMO players and their love for spamming spells for hours for experience/renown/feeling good about getting strategically useless kills/staring at how cool their spells look.

I mean seriously, why would you play large scale battlefield and not even care about tactics and strategy. And 99% of the time if they actually wanted to use strategery it'd be avoiding the enemy and trying to race the other faction through the NPC base and to do the boss. (In which case I would be one of the lone guys sitting at home base being a dick and delaying them. Sending off an AOE fear while they were trying to beat the boss would be hilarious).

And yet with the smaller PVP people are willing to do all sorts of crazy shit to win. Maybe because there's no "winning" in AV? Or because you didn't actually have to win to gain PVP ranks, as just sitting on your ass getting kills will work?
 
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Hoaxmetal

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Trying this for the 4th time, should be different when I finally have a decent PC so technical/fps issues won't be a problem.
 

bozia2012

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Black Orc
Triggered.

That was my beloved class, until they "revamped" it and made less intimidating than Choppa (which was bigger than BO when buffed!).
But in any case the RvR implementation was so bad that I just quit.
I quit the game probably because I didn't know how MMOs worked back then (i.e. repeating content), I was too deep in single player games. Zerging whole map when Order stopped logging, kiting city boss and being stuck in a crappy guild didn't help.

Bright Wizard was the most OP and hated class IIRC. They could melt whole armies, crash servers when Order was loosing the stronghold and (at some point) I remember they would charge as first line (revamp?).

Trying this for the 4th time, should be different when I finally have a decent PC so technical/fps issues won't be a problem.
Didn't know the technology advanced so far.
 

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Trying this for the 4th time, should be different when I finally have a decent PC so technical/fps issues won't be a problem.
Good point. Might have to give it another go some day. Game was clunky and crashed all the time, but it had a certain je-ne-sais-pas that made it stand out from the MMO crowd.
 

bozia2012

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Trying this for the 4th time, should be different when I finally have a decent PC so technical/fps issues won't be a problem.
Good point. Might have to give it another go some day. Game was clunky and crashed all the time, but it had a certain je-ne-sais-pas that made it stand out from the MMO crowd.
I hope you guys weren't playing on some potato crap.

AoC didn't require a 64-bit system, but running it on less than 4GB would crash a lot because of memory leaks. Also 3GHz recommended.
 

Hoaxmetal

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It's p. boring, but the melee combat is better than in any other themepark mmo. Just hit level 30, mostly enjoying it for the sightseeing.
 

bozia2012

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It's p. boring, but the melee combat is better than in any other themepark mmo. Just hit level 30, mostly enjoying it for the sightseeing.
I started playing because of tits and gore - Conan was some hollywood shit for me at that point...

...but I got drawn to all those ruins, forgotten temples etc. Around 2009-2010 Bylos and Doetsch started writing and designing stuff and AoC went full Lovecraft - Rise of the Godslayer and further content addons were all about madness and cosmic horrors. I had to beat every single dungeon and raid just to see everything with my own eyes and know more. The Crawling Chaos, the coffin of stars, the Vile Nativity, the shining trapezohedron, the Lurker at the Threshold.

The Queen ascended the stairs alone and descended the stairs radiant with immaculate child, and she spoke: “Valka’s voice comes in the form of iridescent spheres. The spheres! The spheres! They froth and bubble with the wisdom that flows as thick and sweet as glowing honey.

I left when there was a longer break in conent releases, but now I'm back to delve into Palace of Cetriss and learn about the Emerald Lotus.
 

Hoaxmetal

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It's p. boring, but the melee combat is better than in any other themepark mmo. Just hit level 30, mostly enjoying it for the sightseeing.
Around 2009-2010 Bylos and Doetsch started writing and designing stuff and AoC went full Lovecraft - Rise of the Godslayer and further content addons were all about madness and cosmic horrors.
As always in MMOs the good stuff is at max level D:
 

Ninjerk

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Is this game still being run f2p? Last time I played it, they had just implemented the play offline thingy.
 

Mangoose

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It's p. boring, but the melee combat is better than in any other themepark mmo. Just hit level 30, mostly enjoying it for the sightseeing.
Around 2009-2010 Bylos and Doetsch started writing and designing stuff and AoC went full Lovecraft - Rise of the Godslayer and further content addons were all about madness and cosmic horrors.
As always in MMOs the good stuff is at max level D:
Oh yeah THAT'S why I kept on wanting to replay AoC. To play RotG. But I never could put enough effort.
 

Hoaxmetal

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Is this game still being run f2p?
Yes. I have yet to hear about a mmo that goes from P2P to F2P and back to P2P. I went a bit derp and bought 3 month subscription (it's ~10% off and you get 1 additional month and never-ending +33% xp item.
 

Norfleet

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Yes. I have yet to hear about a mmo that goes from P2P to F2P and back to P2P. I went a bit derp and bought 3 month subscription (it's ~10% off and you get 1 additional month and never-ending +33% xp item.
Games have definitely gone from F2P to P2P before, although I'm not sure I'd qualify them as MMOs. In all cases this has resulted in their declines and death in short order. The most prominent examples that come to mind would be the Sony Station games and the Mythic Gamestorm games.
 

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