Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Age of Wonders 3

  • Thread starter Multi-headed Cow
  • Start date

Matalarata

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
2,646
Location
The threshold line
This is actually OT but I assure you I've won many a game of eclipse even before the expansion and even without plasma missiles, which are nice but far from game winning. Literally. I've rarely seen anyone that spent much in fleet upgrades actually winning a game! It's more a case of a perceived unbalance... But to explain why I 'd need to derail this convo even more.

But then again, balancing a single item is never a problem. We're talking about balancing all civs so they can compete against each other so that each choice is viable or any other empty modern buzzword.
 
Last edited:

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,357
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
This is actually OT but I assure you I've won many a game of eclipse even before the expansion and even without plasma missiles, which are nice but far from game winning. Literally. I've rarely seen anyone that spent much in fleet upgrades actually winning a game! It's more a case of a perceived unbalance... But to explain why I 'd need to derail this convo even more.

But then again, balancing a single item is never a problem. We're talking about balancing all civs so they can compete against each other so that each choice is viable or any other empty modern buzzword.
OT about Eclipse:
Actually, it depends on whether you are playing 1v1, teamgames, or free for all.
In 1v1, plasma missiles are not a perceived imbalance at all. In larger games, they might not be enough to let you overextend.
Iirc, the races are also imbalanced to the point they advise against allowing some of them in 1vs1 in the manual :)
But playing larger games sort of auto solve the issue indeed, as table politics>military imbalances.
Btw, how is the MP of the Steam version now?
I was pretty disapointed with the iOS version when it came to basic functionalities (games canceled if one player goes AFK, no replay of other player turns...), and the lack of expansion content. Did they patch the MP since?
 
Last edited:

Matalarata

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
2,646
Location
The threshold line
Never tried the Pc version and never owned anything running iOS, I only play the board version. I don't even know if they are balanced exactly the same way so I don't know if what I'm saying is still valid on digital. You're right in that there are some incredibly OP races if you play 1 vs 1 (the manual says so) but you always have the option to go all humans if you want a balanced start. In any other situation Hydran are just the best race, give them to the newbs (except 1 vs 1 with the other controlling Orion, I guess). I love mecha and planta above all. You know Plantas, the weakest of races, can actually pull off a rush in 1 vs 1 or alliance? You'll need someone to cover your ass afterwards but initially their lousy ships actually have an energy advantage over 4 races and the humies...

Spoilering because OT, sorry guys but I don't know where to respond to this:

The problem with Plasma Missile is quite simple, they are a pricey end-tier tech, do a lot of damage but only fire once per combat. By their nature, if you go PlaMis you'll want to spam them on interceptors (it's quite easy to stop plasma on a captial, and cap ships need staying power to get their full value in combat) so people are discouraged when 5-6 interceptors can output ~20+ damage dices.

Solution: just send there a single point of armor above that number, it doesn't matter in which form. A point of armor left and a basic cannon mean the whole system is yours after the initial barrage. If he mixes any other weapon with plasma to have a chance in the subsequent combat phases he's purposedly gimping himself, since he's either using basic or he wasted research for 2 top tier weapon and that means he has lost anyway. The point is you need a lot of ships to capitalize on plasma missile, and you have to mix them with other weapons if you want to actually keep the system after you destroy your enemy fleet.
Remember that ultimately you win by point in Eclipse, the only thing PlaMis are good for pre-expansion is to discourage a powerful neighbour from attacking, if he spent a lot on fleet he needs to attack in order to capitallize, and you don't send your regenerating 3 moves 7 AR capital to attack someone with PlaMis, too much of a gamble.

All this is moot anyway, since Eclipse gets 1000 better with the first expansion and 10 better with the second one, so you can counter PlaMis with flux or whatever other tech you have around.

Hope no zelous moderator comes splitting those last pages...
 
Last edited:

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,267
So about modding no news about production overwflow? Building more than one unit at once would ve useful in my mod for the spam faction.

For locking classes for race I just set them very weak. For example Scavengers have bad rogue units and they lack both cavalry (so bad warlord too) and irregular.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
This is actually OT but I assure you I've won many a game of eclipse even before the expansion and even without plasma missiles, which are nice but far from game winning. Literally. I've rarely seen anyone that spent much in fleet upgrades actually winning a game! It's more a case of a perceived unbalance... But to explain why I 'd need to derail this convo even more.

But then again, balancing a single item is never a problem. We're talking about balancing all civs so they can compete against each other so that each choice is viable or any other empty modern buzzword.

OT for Eclipse: Board game balance in general can be hard to talk about because the way a game is played can be so thoroughly rooted in a game group. Board games are slaves to meta in a way that video games aren't. For example, some people in my group want to ban the Planta from Eclipse because they think they're way too powerful. Of course they aren't too powerful, but a lot of the people in my group aren't very aggressive and so are generally more likely to let a Planta player expand to ridiculous amounts before they do something about it. This leads to a situation where Planta are not overpowered except for in my circles where they are. That being said, I definitely agree about plasma missiles. They're incredibly powerful in combat, potentially, but the challenge is taking that incredible power and turning it into victory points - and more importantly, turning it into more victory points than what you could have gotten investing your resources elsewhere.

Also, quick digression about Eclipse. The game always impresses me with how easily people pick it up. People who find games like Puerto Rico or even Catan too complex will still have a blast with Eclipse, despite it being far more complex than those games. I've begun to realize that the way a game presents itself and is explained can have a much larger impact on how complex or simple it seems than the actual rules and mechanics. The Europa Universalis games come to mind as PC games that seem much more complex than they actually are due to presentation and interface. Not to mention the sheer overwhelming nature of having literally hundreds of countries to choose from. IMHO Dominions is a fair bit more complex than EU but seems simpler and easier to pick up at first, just because of the nature of the game.

In any case, I think the issue is that we've been talking past each other in terms of balance. For me, balance is essentially making sure that everything works the way it should and does what you'd think it'd accomplish. In AoW 3, Rogues kinda struggling against Necromancers and Theocrats getting a nice healthy buff against them is the fun sort of imbalance. It broadens the game and it makes things more interesting. Beyond that, it makes sense. It's logical that someone who relies on poison and pinpointing vital organs would have a harder time against poison-immune, vital-organ-free Undead, and that someone who conjures up holy energy to smite the unnatural would enjoy an edge against the Undead. And I get your point that in a truly competitive environment, those things would be issues, and I think that's true, and in that sense, I can see how competitive balance can weaken the game. On the other hand, things like Necromancers being able to take control of Undead units, or reanimate dead ones under their control. That's something that is a pretty cool concept and isn't necessarily a balance issue - until you combine it with the fact that there are tons of high-tier wandering Undead monsters in most RMG games. Then it becomes an issue, because it's trivial for a Necromancer to amass a huge army of T4 units long before other players are even looking at T3, and at that point you're pretty much screwed. To me, that's the sort of imbalance that isn't fun.

TWT is another good example. It wasn't a case of certain races being over or underpowered in certain scenarios or for certain matchups. It was a case of certain races just being crap all the time, and certain races being too good all the time, largely due to things not working the way they should. In theory, Goblins lent themselves to low-cost swarms of units, for example, but in practice, production speeds and the upkeep system prevented that from actually being a thing. This generally just meant the Goblins were boring to play. And sure, I guess you could still have fun with them if you were into cherry tapping, but that always felt a bit pointless to me.

Or take a look at MoO. The fact that racial combat boosts, for example, are so underwhelming makes the game more boring, IMHO. I guess it can make the discovery thing slightly more fun? But discovery is only fun the first time. After that, you're just left with options that you'll never pick unless you're deliberately gimping yourself - and like I said, cherry-tapping only gets you so far. Now, combat boosts being less efficient than UniTol isn't really a balance issue, IMHO. The issue is more that the boosts don't really do much at all, and players will take them with a certain idea or concept for a race in mind and then be disappointed because these bonuses don't work the way you'd expect. Not every strategy should be equally viable. Not every strategy should be viable at all. But most strategies should behave the way the game indicates they'd behave. Significantly amplifying the combat boosts you can get from racial picks probably still wouldn't make them top-tier choices by any means, but they would mean that designing a warlike faction could be a lot more fun.
 
Last edited:

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,267
Goblins have already the volunteer trait so upkeep isn't an issue. Production overwflow is the problem.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Goblins have already the volunteer trait so upkeep isn't an issue. Production overwflow is the problem.

Sorry, I was referring to AoW 2. I really liked how AoW 3 changed the upkeep system - that's been an issue with the game since the AoW 1 demo. I think there's an overflow mod in the works? I seem to remember reading about it at some point. The issue I think is, fittingly enough considering this thread, balance, and making sure production overflow doesn't cause higher tier units to become obsolete.
 

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,267
It is the same based on tier but there are some skills that lower the upkeep: volunteer, some stack skill for heroes and some research for warlord.
The original was the worst for goblin swarming since cost didn't impact number of turns to build units, also all t1 except the darter were very bad and t2 sub par, t3 and t4 were decent if you survive.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
How did the upkeep system change?

I remember in the originals that my armies were usually two or three hero-led elite armies crushing armies upon armies of enemy trash-mobs, while my best cities had ironclad defenses able to fight off large armies. In SM I went really crazy with defense, spell coverage as soon as possible, enchantment halls, enchanted walls, tower defense, lots of defense strategies for using cannons, ranged units, flyers and chokeholders.

Also, I usually prefer the Earth sphere because the Golden Age spell let me turn mana into gold, the former I always had more than the later.

Well, part of it was the upkeep system receiving modifiers, like vota DC said. Then upkeep itself was rebalanced - lower tier units have lower upkeep than previous games, whereas higher tier units have higher upkeep. In fact, most T3 units in AoW 3 have higher upkeep than many T4 units in AoW SM. Finally, there's the general expansion in the economic factors of the game and the fact that gold is easier to come by in general.

The upkeep disparity was the real problem in earlier AoW games. The fact that a T4 creature generally had an upkeep cost equivalent to around 2.5 T1 creatures threw off the game, and led to a weird place where lower tiers just often weren't worth building. For someone who didn't like that about the games and wanted more large, epic battles between big groups of foot soldiers, AoW 3 was a huge improvement. Not only did it make lower tier units more cost-efficient, but it also in a bunch of other ways significantly reduced the power creep between tiers, with T4s still being incredibly powerful, but no longer the "lol autocombat through six stacks" level of powerful. T4 spam is still present, but to a much lesser degree. And I really like that. For those who enjoyed AoW more for the encounters between high-power creatures, it's probably a bad thing.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Actually that reminds me of a trend I've noticed in general. It's not fool-proof, and there are certainly exceptions, but by and large, those who preferred AoW 1 to AoW SM tend to enjoy AoW 3 more than those who preferred SM to 1.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
So about modding no news about production overflow? Building more than one unit at once would ve useful in my mod for the spam faction.
If there is, I want to know about it. One of the big sources of obsolescence for lower tiers is the lack of production overflows. Once you can start cranking out higher tiers in 1 turn it's frequently a bad idea to spend so many turns producing weaker units. I also think there should be research overflows so you don't feel like you should leave a 60 research thing for later once you have 40 research a turn because you're worried about wasting 20 research points so you'd rather wait until you have 60 research and can finish it in one turn. It's also part of what makes the High Elves' +3 research per city bonus worthless, since it's almost guaranteed to become wasted overflow until you have a large amount of high elf cities at which point the bonus is too small to make a difference anyhow.

In any case, I think the issue is that we've been talking past each other in terms of balance. For me, balance is essentially making sure that everything works the way it should and does what you'd think it'd accomplish. In AoW 3, Rogues kinda struggling against Necromancers and Theocrats getting a nice healthy buff against them is the fun sort of imbalance. It broadens the game and it makes things more interesting. Beyond that, it makes sense. It's logical that someone who relies on poison and pinpointing vital organs would have a harder time against poison-immune, vital-organ-free Undead, and that someone who conjures up holy energy to smite the unnatural would enjoy an edge against the Undead. And I get your point that in a truly competitive environment, those things would be issues, and I think that's true, and in that sense, I can see how competitive balance can weaken the game. On the other hand, things like Necromancers being able to take control of Undead units, or reanimate dead ones under their control. That's something that is a pretty cool concept and isn't necessarily a balance issue - until you combine it with the fact that there are tons of high-tier wandering Undead monsters in most RMG games. Then it becomes an issue, because it's trivial for a Necromancer to amass a huge army of T4 units long before other players are even looking at T3, and at that point you're pretty much screwed. To me, that's the sort of imbalance that isn't fun.
The first point I could make about the Rogue vs Necromancer matchup is that the Assassins actually have undead slayer. The problem is that even with that, the lack of blight damage and backstab (and the uselessness of life steal from dark pact) still makes them shit against undead, unless you cast Rot from Water adept (corporeal undeads only) maybe, have RG5 draconian racial governance (way too late to normally matter), or are using Bane of the Unnatural I guess (which means you are playing Creation master). In addition Bards and Succubi are much weaker against Necromancers since you can't Charm, Taunt, Seduce, or Curse undead (Bane Fire also has to contend with blight immunity and possibly desecration). Maybe Tigran Succubi with their added fire damage attack and spirit resist can be slightly more useful, but in general, any rogue unit short of stalkers is not much good against undead. The second point is that Shadow Stalkers used to fend off against Necromancers well enough thanks to their set of immunities and resists, but then they buffed Dread Reapers to be able to Invoke Death on incorporeals. Now it's a shittier matchup, unless the Rogue gets some serious stalker spam going. Although stalker spam can also be countered by Cardinal Culling, support spam from human/dwarf/elf/draconian/tigran races (Smoke Screen is their only defense against that), and frostling necros are completely immune to frost, in which case stalkers are trash. In general if you hit a stalker with elements it does not have resist to, it's pretty fragile. The third point is that Rogues typically do not depend on winning straight fights to win games. They depend on outmaneuvering enemies and devastating the opponent's economy. The problem is that Animate Ruins makes razing a city only a minor setback for the undead player, and the lack of morale means a lot of Rogue morale screwing tactics methods simply do not work. The main weapons Rogues have against undead economies are Incite Revolt, which severely slows undead population growth, and Guild of Shadow Thieves, which lowers gold production by 40%. But those are more like speed bumps for the most part. It's a far cry from the negative morale and revolt economic crippling that Rogues can normally inflict. Age of Deception in particular is completely worthless for an ultimate spell when you're up against necromancers. All you're left with is invis on all your units, which given the Necromancer's love of Reanimators in every stack is pretty shit, since all supports have True Seeing as their special perk. A Rogue's victory strategy against Necromancers is typically just a heavy stalker spam and maybe sphinxes too.

Theocrats also don't have a healthy buff against Necromancers. If anything, it's more like the other way around. Enemy of the Faith (global spell: all your units gain devout slayer and support slayer) and Desecration (all undead units gain +3 resistance, all devout units get -3 resistance) are two very potent anti-Theocrat options that the Necromancer can field. The Great Purge adds undead slayer, summon slayer, and monster slayer to only infantry and cavalry (incidentally, the bonuses all stack for a +9 bonus against dread reapers and banshees, but those units also have 60% physical resistance). The main weakness Necromancers have against Theocrats is their large spirit weakness, but if you go Tigrans and/or Shadowborn master you can address that problem (if you do both you will even end up with positive spirit resistance in your hero stacks). And given stuff like Power Ritual, Vampiric Hunger, and Cathedral of Bones Necromancers also have their own boosts to their attackers. Necromancer against Theocrat is not a matchup that really buffs the Theocrat, especially if the Necromancer is playing Tigran.

The upkeep disparity was the real problem in earlier AoW games. The fact that a T4 creature generally had an upkeep cost equivalent to around 2.5 T1 creatures threw off the game, and led to a weird place where lower tiers just often weren't worth building. For someone who didn't like that about the games and wanted more large, epic battles between big groups of foot soldiers, AoW 3 was a huge improvement. Not only did it make lower tier units more cost-efficient, but it also in a bunch of other ways significantly reduced the power creep between tiers, with T4s still being incredibly powerful, but no longer the "lol autocombat through six stacks" level of powerful. T4 spam is still present, but to a much lesser degree. And I really like that. For those who enjoyed AoW more for the encounters between high-power creatures, it's probably a bad thing.
The upkeep system was part of the problem. Lack of production overflows is another. If I can build a T1 in one turn or a T3 in one turn, would I rather spend 4 turns making 4 T1s or 4 T3s? Turn economy is another valuable resource in this game.
 
Last edited:

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,357
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Regarding MP, do you manually resolve tactical battles in multiplayer games with several players?
Waiting forever for other to finish their battles killed MOO2 MP for me.
What about 1vs1? Do you replace the AI in battles involving the other player vs NPC?
That is why I prefer games with automated tactical resolution like Space Empires, Dominions or Solium Infernum.
I think Total: Warhammer did it well by making you play the OPFOR for all battles involving the other player in 1vs1 campaigns.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,946
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Regarding MP, do you manually resolve tactical battles in multiplayer games with several players?
Waiting forever for other to finish their battles killed MOO2 MP for me.
What we usually do in games like these is to only allow manual resolving if it "makes sense". So if the AI enemy is totally inferior and you would win anyway with minimal losses, it isn't allowed. Same if the enemy is totally superior.
The latter gets an exception because the AI cannot win a battle where you hold choke points. In AoW3 I have defended cities/towers against a full army with a single hero. In such a case, manual battle is allowed because the AI cannot pull that off.

But anyway, this is a serious problem for MP enjoyment of games like this, IMO.
I would just allow parallel battles - and I don't give a fuck about the implications. I know some things in a battle would be somewhat affected by the result of another battle, but the flow of the game should take priority here and for 90% of battles there just is no connection between them. At least as an option to allow in the game settings, parallel battles should be allowed.

Of course there are still cases where it just isn't easily possible - like one player participating in two battle (or more) at the same time. Certainly doable in theory, but I doubt it would be a very practical approach.
 
Last edited:

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Wrong. Research overflow from regular research is wasted. But if you get research pickups, like from exploring a lost library, it will roll over.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,894
I've started playing AoW 3 again but the mouse cursor is tiny at 4k, making it very hard to play. Looking around for solutions, one of the devs suggested this solution:

https://pandateemo.github.io/YoloMouse/help.html

It works very well. You can substitute the in-game mouse cursor with something else in realtime by hitting a hotkey, you can resize it however you want and there's a few different colours as well. It was a perfect solution for me. Maybe it can help someone else, too.
 

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
https://www.paradoxinteractive.com/en/interim-report-january-september-2017/

The acquisition of game developer Triumph Studios was finalized with a transaction date July 7. The purchase price was set to EUR 4 million plus a performance based earnout of up to EUR 21 million, until December 2025.

Looking back at the past quarter, the acquisition of game developer Triumph Studios has been the most significant event. We have spent the last few months integrating the team into our organization. The smoothness of this transition is an indication that we share many of the same views regarding our communities with gamers, our love for game development and the kind of driven people that we have within our respective organizations. Paradox has a lot to offer in terms of size, marketing muscle, contacts, experience and so on. It is clear, however, that the Triumph team too can teach us a few things about our different disciplines.
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
Jun 3, 2016
Messages
2,815
Location
inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
So I got the complete edition of this on sale and damn it's a good ass game homie!

So far I've clocked 12 hours and the more I play the more addicted I get. I've lost about 5 scenarios and right now I think I'm dominating on a random map on lord difficulty. Goblins are my worst enemy right now though, he's a dick!

Thanks guys
 

Dwarvophile

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
Messages
1,438
Yes, it's a brillant game. The 4x I spent the most time on lately. Too many hours. actuallyThere's already a warhammer map but I would spend double the time I did if it had of a total conversion warhammer mod.
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
Jun 3, 2016
Messages
2,815
Location
inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
Too many hours. actuallyThere's already a warhammer map but I would spend double the time I did if it had of a total conversion warhammer mod.

Ugh yeah I have a problem with these types of games where I'll play for like 10 hours straight without realizing it and it's like well there goes my whole day :/

BUT I got a legendary mount drop and my necromancer charmed a tier iv undead so it's all good
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,650
Well, you probably should play campaigns. On random maps either you snowball fast, or you are double ganged upon.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
In campaigns either the AI snowballs fast or you were quick in rushing the AI.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom