Annie Carlson plays the AoD combat demo

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Not this shit again...

Honestly, as seen from the eyes of someone who doesn't know shit about programming, you all look like you don't know shit about programming.
VD at least has a game coming. I'll give him the benefit of doubt.

As for the demo feedback, I found this bit very interesting :

Weapon Types - I couldn't always tell what weapon was influenced by each skill. Labeling the class of the weapon in the description would help immensely.

It's probably easy to add (told you I didn't know shit), and is really a pain in the ass when not there. So, please...

Sounds like AoD at it's current state is a bug ridden piece of shit. Best wishes from Troika, amirite?
I'll either wait for at least a dozen patches before I buy it, or I'll happily remove it from the inventory and possibly sue ITS when my PC breaks.

Actually from what I have read the testers so far have identified only several bugs and the build is quite stable.

I wouln't be so enthusiastic to join Gromnir's stand. He is famous with his despise of Troika and especially Arcanum, so probably his taste in games significantly differs from yours. Besides that, he is very critical of VD mainly because of the latter's Codex background.

Perhaps your choice to say "hardcoded" - there isn't strong consensus on a firm definition, and in the game industry moving data from a compiled language to an interpreted one seems to be the cure ( although there seems to be a trend towards XML and SQLite ).

Except it is source code, and it is a valid point. How does TorqueScript handle?

Code:

//enemy spotted!
$phrase_enemy_spotted0 = "a";
...
$phrase_enemy_spotted7 = "b";
$phrase_enemy_spotted9 = "c";
$phrase_enemy_spotted9 = "d";
$phrase_enemy_spotted10 = "e";

Just don't ever go into software development and it won't matter. Game developers are stereotypically the worst of any large product software developers. I don't mean that as a condemnation of their personal ability - they are underpaid, have a relentless and unrealistic schedule, and no incentive to write good code - no one is depending on it, and their customers are addicts. When a game developer submits buggy code that kinda works, generally, everyone thinks it's awesome. When a financial app developer submits buggy code that kinda works they generally fail unit testing, or break the build and get a lot of dirty looks and told to fix the problem - They generally also get paid more money and work better hours.

Such a surprising statement from a guy who said a week earlier: "Yeah, sounds cool. Except, I don't gonna buy some dip**** game from a 5 man team. ".

PS. Note the extreme "don't gonna" phrasing. You know a man means business when he says "don't gonna". He done made up his mind and there aint nothing you can do to change it.

What point would that be? That AoD won't take the gaming world by storm and change the gaming industry forever and ever? That it's a small game that will never sell more than 10k copies? Did anyone actually doubt that?

Found yourself a new home? That's nice. You claimed that the snippet I posted was hardcoded. It's not. We tried to explain, but you didn't want to listen. Teh end.

That's open to debate - hardcoding can be a relative term, but cyncynat provided context for his interpretation

That was enough for a competent developer to respond with something like "in our case, moving the text out of compiled code into a script is flexible enough, and we wouldn't recoup the costs of moving to XML.".

But no - Nick responds with

which completely misses what cyncynat said - he didn't even catch that cyncnat identified the snippet as coming from a script file.

No - at this point cyncynat responded with an example of what he meant - he also made the sensible, but wrong, assumption that no one would add a "feature" to a scripting language that automagically creates arrays out of variables with the same name and a number suffix.

You responded with a one line insult that addressed none of his points. *sigh* Of course you did.

Nick followed up with this gem:

What a fucking idiot.

Code:

# this is perl - it is scriptalicious
# it's also source code, you can even compile it *boggle*

# let's figure hardcode the local tax rate
my $total = $price * 1.07;

# oh snap!

# because crushing that retard's world is so much fun, do it again
my $response = $hungry ? "Yes, please" : "No, thanks";

# oh snap-snap!

Then, inexplicably Nick offers a reasonable, constructive olive branch:

but he jumps back into not understanding what a scripting language is

I think we've debunked most of this already. The inability to differentiate code and data - maybe we should blame XML? To anyone still setting on the bench - moving data out of compiled C code into something like TorqueScript is a great first step. Best practice, however, is to go one step further and put that data into a data-only format. Mainly because:

1) It's easier to edit, especially since you can quickly throw together a GUI interface to XML or SQLite.

2) It's a lot easier to validate a data-only format than a script source.

3) TorqueScript can do a lot more than assign variables. While VD can be trusted to not go playing with the docs and buttfuck the game. It would be nice to give a volunteer access to text entry chores without giving them access to all that power.

Again, using TorqueScript for data entry is probably fine for AoD. It doesn't mean the game will suck or crash or anything really. It doesn't even mean they are bad developers - someone other than Nick or VD might have made an informed decision that incorporating an external data format would create more work than it would save.

Let's summarize, cyncynat was polite to a fault, offered honest criticism, responded to your initial doubts with real supporting examples to clarify, and then like neocons at a town hall meeting you and Nick screamed him down with idiocies about death panels and scripting languages.

Ok, you won, ITS is a band of douches who don't know Jack Schmidt about coding. Can we carry on now?

This source code debate made me facepalm so hard that my head snapped clean off and is now rolling away.

Oh good, the Junior Programmer Peanut Gallery is up to its antics again.

To clarify, and pay attention here because people have said this repeatedly and it isn't penetrating :

"Hard coded", and "being able to swap that data out without a source code recompile", are mutually exclusive concepts. One means NOT the other. Since the scripts, all that data and any logical functions in them, can be changed without recompiling the c++ game source code, they are, by the very definition, not hard coded in. Which is the exact fucking reason you use scripts in the first place, ffs, because you can include data and logic without hard coding them into the source.

A data format, you say? Wow, cause it wasn't in a "data format" in the TorqueScript eh?

You know what a data format is, yes? It's a set of rules for formatting data (generally in a file) to be interpreted by something (a piece of code or the human eye) which understands that format and knows how to read it into a data structure in memory. You know that a data format is just a thing you make up, right, a set of rules you lay out as a standard for laying out data. XML is a well known one, but you could make up your own if you feel like it (like the data format used in .pak files in Quake/Doom engine), and write parsers for it, etc etc, which is what Torque did, back in the Tribes 2 days when most of the original engine was created.

XML is a common format for storing data in a form of graph. An xml parser reads the file, understands the code language in it like this :

Code:

 <xml>
 <painting>
  <img>
  <caption>This is Raphael's "Foligno" Madonna, painted
           in <date>1511</date>-<date>1512</date>.</caption>
 </painting>

and turns that into a graph data structure.

Guess what is happening in the TorqueScript file? That's right, we have data (strings) formatted in a way Torque recognises to be an array data structure (actually a vector, but let's pretend it's an array) as opposed to a graph. The data structure is created in memory, the file is parsed by the executable and the data format read, interpreted according to the understood data format and placed in the memory data structure. Almost identical to if you'd read it out of an xml file, or an other data format. Except you can also put logic functions in script files, if you want. You don't have to though, a file filled purely with data is fine, the TS gui files are an example of this, they are pure data defining in game gui layouts.

Script files are great, they can contain both data AND script logic, neither of which are hardcoded (ie compiled into the game binaries). Isn't that neat! It's like, an .ini file that can contain not just data variables but dynamically bound logic! If either that data or the logic were "hard coded", you'd completely lose the benefit and point of having script files in the first place, ie that you can swap out that data and logic without recompiling the source code. (I'm repeating myself here because I think it will have gone in one ear and out another.)

So what is the difference between having a script file with an array definition in it and an xml file with an xml graph structure defined in it? Well, for one thing, the file ends in .cs instead of .xml. That's huge, right there.

Also, you have to have an xml parser to read xml data structures, whereas with Torque Script you need a TS parser to read TS data structures (and TS logic functions). Funnily enough, the Torque engine comes with a TS parser standard. Someone could, if they were silly and had a hard-on for xml, go and write an xml parser and make sure to define all their data in the xml format instead of the TS data formats. That would be great, not completely redundant at all. All that data, in files ending in .xml instead of .cs, it does the heart good to think of it. Worth the effort.

(If you really love xml, T3D offers an xml parser as well as a TS parser. Useful if you're brining data from another engine, you can use a standard format.)

The other difference, of course, is that parsing xml graphs is inherently slower and more computationally expensive than an array or vector. But it's a minor cost, so lets not mention it.

No. It means that the data variable value cannot be changed without recompiling the source code, the executables and binaries. Scripts aren't built into the binaries. They are evaluated at run time and can be dynamically altered and swapped out without a recompile. It is not a relative term.

No, Nick assumed Cyn was knowledgeable enough to understand that a script file is, by definition, not hard coded, ie it's a contradictary statement, this one : "I know it's script, but it's still hardcoded!"

You know what they say about assumptions.

He understands. You don't. Back to java for you.

You've debunked nothing. And :

1) The correct statement is : XML is a lot harder to edit than simple "array0=" lines in a file UNLESS you throw together a gui interface. Which is extra work on top of building an XML parser for TGE, which is a complete fucking waste of time for a small set of properties stored in a file.

2) Except when you have ALREADY GOT THE FUCKING FUNCTIONALITY BUILT INTO THE ENGINE IN THE FIRST CASE, and not in the 2nd. 0 work versus some amount of work > 0.

3) Torque is awesome, you can pseudo-compile select script files into an intermediary byte-code, which prevents end users messing with any scripts you don't want messed with (besides deleting them, of course) while leaving others open for them to play. It's essentially a way of encoding the scripts into a non-human readable format if you don't want to give away your scritps to people, without hard-coding that stuff into the engine itself, of course.

Cyn has just enough knowledge to shoot himself in the foot and enough pride to ignore any attempts to enlighten him when he runs into a gap in his understanding. Nick was very patient with him.

Oh, GOD.

So much for not derailing the thread... Who gives a fuck about how those guys program their game? You guys really need to show your geek balls are bigger?

Can we get back to bitching / constructively criticizing about the combat?

Back on topic: when will "regular humans" get their hands on the demo? (and sorry if this was posted before, hadn't had much time for forumz lately)?

"Internet experts and awesome programmers strike back!", part two.

I would reply in this way or similar if the person would ask, without breaking in and starting to teach what's right and what's wrong, making one false assumption after another by the way. Self-confidence is good, and I like learning new things too, but only from people who have a good idea what they're talking about.

Oh, and about the XML. No need to worship it like a holy cross, really. You may like a certain way of doing things, but it doesn't mean it's appropriate for every and each situation. In our case, it's pure waste of time that doesn't give any significant advantages.

You're trying to give some free advice, obediah - have fun, really. A lot of thoughts you've posted in this thread make sense, you have some good points. However, you're making the same mistake here as cyncynat made ("omg lol why aren't you using arrays??" - pure masterpiece). It's arrogance and considering yourself smarter than everyone else. Could you at least try to imagine that those smart decisions, alternative data formats were considered, reconsidered and rejected at some point of 5 years of AoD development? But no, of course not - you've now opened some truly new horizons to me with your insightful and knowledgeable suggestions :worship:

However, there is a real gem of adequacy and understanding in your "expertise" for this case:

Yep. Of all considered approaches this one is the most efficient one for AoD. Thank you.

You really look like a smart guy, I wouldn't want to argue with you. But you're applying your favourite (but narrow, in this case) paradigm and favourite (but ranging from unefficient to useless in this case) partial solutions. Please, be reasonable and don't make a last bastion of Truth and Knowledge out of yourself.

So...how about that combat demo?

The universal definition of hardcoded is shit that can't be changed, so let's not go with relativism here.

Because the main complaint was "it's hardcoded!" and script is pretty much the opposite of hardcoded. It's possibly that cyncy meant something else, but there is nobody but him to blame for the outcome.

I AM VERY ANGRY ABOUT NICK!!!

:facepalm:

Never figured you for a fucking moron before. Such a disappointment.

We should finish all outstanding items in 2-3 weeks. Dealing with issues outlined in the feedback might take a bit more time.

Not sure what he's referring to. The only weapon I can think of that may look misleading is zaghnal in this picture:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7087 ... 500001.jpg

It's not immediately clear whether it's an axe or a hammer. It actually is a historically accurate axe and the description says:

"Zaghnal - An elaborately decorated Scythian fighting axe with a crow’s beak-shaped blade designed for greater armor penetration...."

VD, sometimes it is best to leave others to defend your cause . Nick’s and Gareth’s polite and competent explanation would have likely put an end to the thread derailing, and you just fueled the confrontation. As a veteran member of the community you know better than most of us that internet battles are rarely won. And an indie developer you should avoid creating any more sworn enemies of you and your game. Aren’t haters like Morgoth. Gromnir and some others enough at this stage? I remember how one of Troika’s developers once insulted one of the members of the old BIS boards (it was Di IIRC) and in retaliation she did her best (quite successfully) to damage Arcanum image in the eyes of the BIS community.

Go back and read and read his first post.

There is an observation and a question. I don't see the breaking in, lecturing, or false assumptions. Nothing to deserve anything less than that reply.

Trust me - I have no love for XML. For storing data that will live a long time and move around and all that jazz, I think it is a very useful pain in the ass. But I hate, hate, hate the people that see it as a panacea for every problem in software engineering. I prefer YAML or JSON when I can get away with it - less hassle, but they are more fragile.

I used XML as an example, because I notice a lot more games using it and SQLite these days. For a small, trusted team I would probably choose something much less enterprisey, maybe just the scripting language - the only thing I really balk at is the explicit definition of array indexes.

I'm not trying to give advice. The script works for you, and it would be stupid to rip it out now to move to XML or something else. I just made a disparaging comment on the looks of the code, and defended those comments with evidence when presented with easily debunked counter-arguments. I enjoy software design, I like talking about it. If I see something I don't understand, or that looks wrong to me, I'll ask about it our of curiosity more than arrogance. In a different venue, I would carefully phrase the comment to not offend, but on the codex I assume every conversation will be abrasive and retarded until proven otherwise.

I admit - I did think that at first. But I saw the explanation of the TorqueScript oddity before engaging in conversation. I'm sure a lot of humble programmers first response to looking at that snippet would be "You should really use arrays". You are right that it's good to learn your shit before going on a warpath - but "Mind you, in your snippet string values are being directly assigned to separate variables (why not to use an array?)" doesn't strike me as particularly arrogant or inciteful wording.

AoD seems to work, and I doubt anyone could build such a piece of software without learning about arrays or hearing of XML. But cyncynat asked a valid and rather clear design question and ITS jumped down his throat and stirred up confusion rather than just humoring the question by justifying the decision.

You're welcome. The bolded portion should have been the initial response - it would have nipped all of this in the bud.

Well it's certainly unreasonable of me to carry on this discussion so long, but I don't think I've taken an unreasonable stance overall. I stand by my initial comment that it is ugly code - By 2009 standards it is ugly, scary code - even if it is the ideal solution given your development environment and the details of TorqueScript. From there it escalated more than it should have because it took a few pages for someone to reply with something more coherent than "TorqueScript is a data format like XML because it doesn't use source code".

Let's not. Although following the logic of your post, you end up with pseudo-hard coded text. Which I find pretty funny for some reason.

I agree. I listed the reasons someone would pick XML over a scripting language for storing data. You listed some valid reasons not to choose XML over a scripting language. It fills my heart with joy that an observer might better understand that software design is a balancing act rather than right/wrong shoutyelling.

I wasn't trying to win. I thought that obediah wanted to play and I thought I would keep him company, since we are like best buds and shit.

Di was such a stupid bitch. Still is, probably.

Let me guess, it's :facepalm: because Obediah said it? Why not try attacking the logic. How are these not examples of hard-coding data?

Is that really all you got? If I run that script through a compiler then the values are hard coded all of a sudden? If I buy a hex editor, then is nothing hard coded?

Hard coded for all practical purposes is the relative state of data being defined in a manner such that the cost of changing it is too expensive compared to the need to change it.

By the strictest definition, anything stored in a variable is not hard coded, even if it is compiled. So you aren't even correct if you take the CS elitist angle.

Drama? Me wants to hear more!
*waits hopefully*

Obediah, so let's settle on that. Now, when we understand each other and agree about most of things, let's drop the "cyncynat's feelings" subject.
At least, I will, since it's not worth the time spent. I didn't like his "lololol go google 'computer' and 'programming'" post, it's not an adequate response to "let's sync the terminology" suggestions. I didn't like it, and it's my right, agree?

You're absolutely right. Now, take into consideration that the whole story is about something being hardcoded in AoD. Apply your definition. Everything fits, clicks, and works. Yay! Thanks everyone for your attention, and good bye.