Any good challenging jrpgs?

[SCO]

But they didn't have a good story.

 

[Hyperion]

FFVIII may suck, but at least it was released on time, and as a complete game. Standards have dropped considerably.

 

[Ash]

*And let's make an ability that gets rid of random fights all together so girls don't get sick of running away all the time and quit

Again if that's the case It just begs the question why they didn't have that right at the start as a pre-learned GF ability of Shiva, for instance*. Or just an easy mode with less random encounters and buffed stats of player characters...

*Or pre-learned on Ifrit so players have to actually try the combat first before deciding they don't want it anymore.

Not to mention Diablos can be pretty difficult if you've not been paying attention to how the combat works and just running away all the time. Boss fights in general. Run away from any enemy, but you HAVE TO fight the toughest in the game. Makes fuck all sense. If you run away all the time you have no good understanding of how combat generally works, as a newbie.
Also I don't recall running away ever being explained in-game. there's a lot of tutorial shit but nothing on "running away for girls" if my memory serves. Hold L1+R1 for an extended period is not something most players will stumble upon by accident.
Edit: maybe in Ifrits cave, I think it is mentioned there actually, but it's mentioned so that you don't run out of time before beating Ifrit.

I'm pretty sure ENC-None was just added to the game to prevent random encounters in backtracking scenarios, travelling through weak monster habitats (like Balamb island overworld) when you're a high level and the like, or to make low level runs less tedious, but for some reason they didn't give a fuck about balancing it (such a making it a rare item).

 

[Ash]

Final Fantasy VIIIEdit
The ability Enc-None (エンカウントなし, Enkaunto Nashi?) can be learned from Diablos for 100 AP after learning Enc-Half.

So to get Enc-None you first have to fight a shitload of enemies. And play a quarter of the game until you get the magic lamp. That makes no damn sense if they wanted players to use it to eliminate combat from the game entirely.

Enc-None's origins:

Final Fantasy VI Edit
Molulu's Charm (Moogle Charm in the SNES and PlayStation releases) is a unique relic found in the Narshe Mines in the World of Ruin. It can be equipped by Mog and prevents random encounters.

Here it makes even less sense as a "adventure mode", as Mog is a secret character unlock, and you can only get him and the charm in the latter third of the game.

I just don't think it was the devs intention to cater to girls or whatever through these systems and mechanics, especially when an easy/non-combat/female mode would do it considerably more effectively. They're just poorly designed or for the more casual player to fall back on when needed. Running away has always been a part of the series, but it was to escape death when in a rut. FF1 had it and the game was 90% focused on combat.

 

[SCO]

These guys are just being the usual codex edgy. Enc-none is just another tradition of jrpgs (usually in the form of consumable items to eliminate or reduce encounter rate), and one i feel zero guilt about. Don't want, don't use, much like many other stuff in FFVIII. If i recall correctly, in the old times when i had a actual ps1, i played it through as normal once, and as card collecting nutjob using the devour quists ability to maintain levels artificially low before getting no-enc.

Took a long time anyway. *Shrug*

 

[SionIV]

Final Fantasy VIIIEdit
The ability Enc-None (エンカウントなし, Enkaunto Nashi?) can be learned from Diablos for 100 AP after learning Enc-Half.

So to get Enc-None you first have to fight a shitload of enemies. And play a quarter of the game until you get the magic lamp. That makes no damn sense if they wanted players to use it to eliminate combat from the game entirely.

Enc-None's origins:

Final Fantasy VI Edit
Molulu's Charm (Moogle Charm in the SNES and PlayStation releases) is a unique relic found in the Narshe Mines in the World of Ruin. It can be equipped by Mog and prevents random encounters.

Here it makes even less sense as a "adventure mode", as Mog is a secret character unlock, and you can only get him and the charm in the latter third of the game.

I just don't think it was the devs intention to cater to girls or whatever through these systems and mechanics, especially when an easy/non-combat/female mode would do it considerably more effectively. They're just poorly designed or for the more casual player to fall back on when needed. Running away has always been a part of the series, but it was to escape death when in a rut. FF1 had it and the game was 90% focused on combat.

100 AP = Breaking/Carding 10 T-Rex in the training center.

Completing Dollet mission is perhaps 1/10th or 1/15th of the game, not a quarter of the game.

They didn't expect people to fight Diablo so early, or get the AP for it that early, but it's possible and doesn't take a very long time if you know what you're doing.

 

[Ash]

100 AP = Breaking/Carding 10 T-Rex in the training center.
.

Again true, but again it's obscure knowledge a newbie non-combatant adventure storyfag that always flees would not know. Also you need AP to learn Card ability too. And to have learned card refine to get Break spell in any quantity early on.

 

[Exhuminator]

A lot of the stuff I would mention already got mentioned. So here's another vote for The 7th Saga. Especially if you do a solo run.

SMT: Nocturne is only as hard as you're not paying attention, so most people find it hard, yeah.

Give Exile 2 Wicked Phenomenon a try, the USA version that is. Wrecking Designs did a real number on that one.

I found Lagrange Point to be pretty damn hard, mainly because the encounter rate is utterly ridiculous. Same thing with The Sword of Hope, I mean you get random encounters in your random encounters.

Most of the stuff that's popping in my head are first person dungeon crawlers. Your typical JRPG really isn't that hard, and if it is hard, it's usually a matter of just grinding your way to victory anyway.

 

[Arthandas]

So far I tried:

Phantasy Star I: Combat became very tedious very fast.
Dark Law MoD: I have mixed feelings about that + Zsnes liked to crash with it.
Persona 3 Portable: I played it before starting this thread and I have nothing good to say about it. Even though I started on Maniac it wasn't difficult at all and the "hold skip dialog button" phase between exploring Tartarus was very annoying.

Right now I'm getting my hands on Eternal Poison and maybe SMT Nocturne though I'm reluctant after seeing the protagonist.

 

[Hobo Elf]

and maybe SMT Nocturne though I'm reluctant after seeing the protagonist.

Just kill yourself already.

 

[Arthandas]

and maybe SMT Nocturne though I'm reluctant after seeing the protagonist.

Just kill yourself already.

Why, just look at this fucking shit, his design is beyond retarded

 

[Jinn]

I think the point was that you shouldn't let a character design get in the way of playing a wonderful and truly challenging game.

 

[abnaxus]

Koudelka if you want to beat the gargoyle.

 

[SCO]

I think the point was that you shouldn't let a character design get in the way of playing a wonderful and truly challenging game.

I don't know about 'wonderful' but the truth is that that if the kind of character design that troubles him, he's going to have... troubles... playing anything more recent than the snes generation (sometimes even those) or even pc98 games.

Just imagine how triggered he'd get on the Devil Survivor games main character 'design'. Might as well have made the second one female and named her Usagi for maximum cheese. Japan is so weird.

 

[Excidium II]

and maybe SMT Nocturne though I'm reluctant after seeing the protagonist.

Just kill yourself already.

Why, just look at this fucking shit, his design is beyond retarded

He's incredibly understated for a JRPG protagonist

 

[Machocruz]

In game the design comes across even more understated. Play the fucking game or just be done with this whole JRPG thing. It hardly gets any better than Nocturne.

 

[Ash]

I think the point was that you shouldn't let a character design get in the way of playing a wonderful and truly challenging game.

I don't know about 'wonderful' but the truth is that that if the kind of character design that troubles him, he's going to have... troubles... playing anything more recent than the snes generation (sometimes even those) or even pc98 games.

Just imagine how triggered he'd get on the Devil Survivor games main character 'design'. Might as well have made the second one female and named her Usagi for maximum cheese. Japan is so weird.

Personally I much prefer the Dark Gothic JRPGs with European-inspired art direction and would direct newbies to those first, if they weren't anal about it having to be turn-based.

Dark Souls (ARPG)
Symphony of the Night (ARPG)
Vagrant Story (RTw/P)
Koudelka (Turn-based)

All games with variably great gameplay too.

Final Fantasy is also notable in that it's only very minimally animu, and every game has a different non-animu theme/setting and art direction. e.g FF6 = steampunk, 7 = Cyberpunk crossed with a bit of everything. How are these games just generally not 100 times better to look at than your typical animu art style?
Something about heavy overly cartoony animu really turns me off, and that's shallow and stupid, because art direction is less important than gameplay and story. And I used to watch a fair bit of anime. Mostly the mature stuff with solid art direction though i.e Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Appleseed, all the classics.

Maybe I'll too try SMT: Nocturne, considering how much people bang on about it, but if it's only challenge alone that makes it great I'll have to pass, as that's all I ever hear about it. Needs to excel on multiple fronts (including challenge).

 

[Arthandas]

I don't know about 'wonderful' but the truth is that that if the kind of character design that troubles him, he's going to have... troubles... playing anything more recent than the snes generation (sometimes even those) or even pc98 games.

He's incredibly understated for a JRPG protagonist

In game the design comes across even more understated. Play the fucking game or just be done with this whole JRPG thing. It hardly gets any better than Nocturne.

So I'm the only one who thinks he looks ridiculous? And I WILL try Nocturne... eventually.
Btw, I really liked the female protagonist of P3P. She was a normal looking girl, without massive perky porn tits or stripper outfit. Why it's so rare for jrpgs to make normal looking characters?

I've heard the Strange Journey is the hardest Megami Tensei game so I'm going to check it first.

 

[Machocruz]

I didn't like the protag when I first saw previews many years ago, and i have irrational hatred towards men in shorts. But playing the game it's not an issue.

Strange Journey is good. One of my favorite in the series.

 

[Arthandas]

Personally I much prefer the Dark Gothic JRPGs with Europe-inspired art direction and would direct newbies to those first, if they weren't anal about it having to be turn-based.

Dark Souls (ARPG)
Symphony of the Night (ARPG)
Vagrant Story (RTw/P)
Koudelka (Turn-based)

Final Fantasy is also notable in that it's only very minimally animu, and every game has a different non-animu theme/setting and art direction.

I've beaten the whole Dark Souls trilogy multiple times. One of my favorite franchises. I'm still hoping for Bloodborne PC.
SotN killed Castlevania. Also, it's fucking easy.
Vagrant Story = beaten
FF = played/beaten most of them
Koudelka looks interesting, I'll check it.

i have irrational hatred towards men in shorts.

Nothing irrational about that.

 

[Ash]

I've beaten the whole Dark Souls trilogy multiple times. One of my favorite franchises. I'm still hoping for Bloodborne PC.

I just beat Bloodbourne the other day. I found it to be minor decline, but still better than the vast majority of shit being made these days, of course.

SotN killed Castlevania

GTFO. It was a totally average platformer before SotN came and presented it with its very own monocle. SotN just needed to be more difficult and balanced, and to actually have a bit of testing platforming, other than that it's great.

 

[boot]

art direction is less important than gameplay and story

Along with sound sets the tone for the whole thing. Very important, maybe just as important as story.

 

[Ash]

Sure. I never said it wasn't important. Hell, it's probably more important than even story, actually.
As long as we can agree gameplay most of all is king then all is well.

 

[Jinn]

Can't remember if it was mentioned earlier in the thread (search didn't turn up anything), but Romancing Saga: Minstrel's Song is an extremely challenging open world JRPG for the PS2. It is a remake of the original Romancing Saga 1 which unfortunately never reached western shores. It has a plethora of quests, a persistent world where events happen regardless of your intervention, and a C&C mechanic in which the gods judge your actions and react without your immediate knowledge.

 

[Arthandas]

Romancing Saga: Minstrel's Song is an extremely challenging open world JRPG for the PS2.

What makes it so extremely challenging?