Any good challenging jrpgs?

[an Administrator]

YS series mostly have the mature tone you want.

 

[Sigourn]

YS series mostly have the mature tone you want.

Thanks. But from gameplay videos, I can tell I'm not going to like it (I'm not too fond of actiony combat, hence why I don't care about Terranigma).

 

[Exhuminator]

So what JRPGs provide a cool mixture of "mature" and "difficult"?

If you haven't played...

Baroque
Koudelka
Shadow Hearts (the original - not sequels)
SMT: Nocturne
SMT: Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2
The 7th Saga
The Dark Spire
Dark Law: Meaning of Death

...then give those a try. I can surely think of more later.

 

[Sigourn]

If you haven't played...

Baroque
Koudelka
Shadow Hearts (the original - not sequels)
SMT: Nocturne
SMT: Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2
The 7th Saga
The Dark Spire
Dark Law: Meaning of Death

...then give those a try. I can surely think of more later.

Thanks! Most of those were right up my alley, and I needed some second opinions on Baroque, 7th Saga and DLoD. Do you know anything about the Xeno games? (Gears, Saga, and the first Chronicles)

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

According to some people, the PSP version of Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together is too easy, or relatively easy compared to the original. Does anyone know anything about that?

 

[Arthandas]

According to some people, the PSP version of Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together is too easy, or relatively easy compared to the original. Does anyone know anything about that?

Yes, I played it. It has the function of rewinding time a few turns back if you don't like the outcome of your actions but it's purely optional.

 

[an Administrator]

Sounds like Chess

 

[Hobo Elf]

If you haven't played...

Baroque
Koudelka
Shadow Hearts (the original - not sequels)
SMT: Nocturne
SMT: Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2
The 7th Saga
The Dark Spire
Dark Law: Meaning of Death

...then give those a try. I can surely think of more later.

Thanks! Most of those were right up my alley, and I needed some second opinions on Baroque, 7th Saga and DLoD. Do you know anything about the Xeno games? (Gears, Saga, and the first Chronicles)

Beware that there are two different kinds of Baroque games. The original Saturn/PS1 Baroque is FPP and the PS2/Wii version is 3rd person. Both version have different OSTs as well and maybe some other differences as well. I've only played the PS2/Wii remake, but some people swear by the original. The OST is at least much better in the original one, in my opinion.

 

[Siveon]

Both version have different OSTs as well and maybe some other differences as well.

Well, you forgot the big one, the original Saturn/PS1 Baroque is only in Japanese.

 

[Sigourn]

Beware that there are two different kinds of Baroque games. The original Saturn/PS1 Baroque is FPP and the PS2/Wii version is 3rd person. Both version have different OSTs as well and maybe some other differences as well. I've only played the PS2/Wii remake, but some people swear by the original. The OST is at least much better in the original one, in my opinion.

Yup, like Siveon said though, only PS2 and Wii are in English. From what I've learned, Wii is apparently the best one, so Dolphin it is.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Both version have different OSTs as well and maybe some other differences as well.

Well, you forgot the big one, the original Saturn/PS1 Baroque is only in Japanese.

Beware that there are two different kinds of Baroque games. The original Saturn/PS1 Baroque is FPP and the PS2/Wii version is 3rd person. Both version have different OSTs as well and maybe some other differences as well. I've only played the PS2/Wii remake, but some people swear by the original. The OST is at least much better in the original one, in my opinion.

Yup, like Siveon said though, only PS2 and Wii are in English. From what I've learned, Wii is apparently the best one, so Dolphin it is.

They're still playable unless you can't read 'HP'/'VT' or have a hard time recognizing the sword and clothes icons.

There are some smaller smaller bottlenecks for those who can't read Japanese, but you'll recognize the important stuff after some time (e.g. items with penalties).

 

[Exhuminator]

Do you know anything about the Xeno games? (Gears, Saga, and the first Chronicles)

I played the original Xenogears when it first released, didn't make it very far because the encounter rate pissed me off. I've not played the Xenosaga games, but I don't think they're what you're after based on videos I've watched. As for the Wii one, I own it, but have not yet played it. So really I'm no help at all in with that series.

I did think of some other JRPGs that are more dark / mature than typical ones:

Panzer Dragoon Saga
Lost Odyssey
Dragon's Dogma
Nier
Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter
Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land
Tsugunai: Atonement
Resonance of Fate
Dark Half (SFC - has English translation)
Shadow Brain (FC - has English translation)
Sweet Home (FC - has English translation)

The King's Field and Shadow Tower games are super in this vein, but despite being made in Japan, aren't really JRPGs in the traditional sense. But I absolutely adore them, and you should give them a shot.

According to some people, the PSP version of Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together is too easy, or relatively easy compared to the original. Does anyone know anything about that?

There is the ability to rewind time (up to 50 moves, including enemy moves) if you goof up. However, that's not much different than people who save-state-scummed their way through the SFC and PS1 versions. It is easier to resurrect dead units in the PSP version, but then again, you don't get equippable auto-resurrect items in the PSP version like you do the previous TO versions. (At least not that I ever found.)

What people always fail to mention, is that the PSP version is arguably harder because of three reasons. One, the enemy AI is improved and also given access to new skills and abilities. Two, the enemy count is higher now to accommodate the increased player unit counts. I've counted up to fifteen enemies on the field in the PSP version (you never get more than 12 units of your own on the field). And three, the enemy units now level scale with your units. So thinking you can just grind your way past hard missions is no longer a viable option in the PSP version.

I think overall the PSP version is harder. But it's super subjective.

 

[Hyperion]

If you can handle Castlevania / Zelda-inspired gameplay, Pandora's Tower is worth a look. Released in English as part of Operation Rainfall and completely overshadowed by Xenoblade Chronicles.

 

[laclongquan]

What a fucking waste of a good thread's tittle.

Admit it: whose alt is Arthandas ?

 

[Rahdulan]

"It has mature moments" doesn't count, I don't care if the orphan's village is burnt at the beginning of the game, I want a game that has a consistent mature tone, like Vagrant Story or Dark Souls. No power of friendship bullshit either, please. If the game is considerably difficult, though, name it anyways. I'm willing to overlook the weaboo if that's the case (Labyrinth of Touhou). See my sig (games in Gold) to understand the type of games I'm looking for, and let me know if any of the other games are what I look for!

You can check out Crimson Shroud on 3DS but I wouldn't classify it as hard as much as "player has to be aware of what he's doing". Matsuno's sensibilities are palpably on display and it was his last break before he went to make mobile games in a basement somewhere.

 

[Arthandas]

Admit it: whose alt is Arthandas ?

Your kidnapped sister's.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

According to some people, the PSP version of Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together is too easy, or relatively easy compared to the original. Does anyone know anything about that?

It's a shit moneygrab defended only by people who didn't play past CH1 or no standards whatsoever. Play the original.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

There is the ability to rewind time (up to 50 moves, including enemy moves) if you goof up. However, that's not much different than people who save-state-scummed their way through the SFC and PS1 versions. It is easier to resurrect dead units in the PSP version, but then again, you don't get equippable auto-resurrect items in the PSP version like you do the previous TO versions. (At least not that I ever found.)

What people always fail to mention, is that the PSP version is arguably harder because of three reasons. One, the enemy AI is improved and also given access to new skills and abilities. Two, the enemy count is higher now to accommodate the increased player unit counts. I've counted up to fifteen enemies on the field in the PSP version (you never get more than 12 units of your own on the field). And three, the enemy units now level scale with your units. So thinking you can just grind your way past hard missions is no longer a viable option in the PSP version.

I think overall the PSP version is harder. But it's super subjective.

Hmm. Not sure how I feel about level scaling, because in the original the battles were hand-scaled. You could grind a bit, but I don't remember it being a very effective strategy in the original because you basically had to kill a "boss" that was one level higher than your crew in order to get someone to level up, and they were generally found in the next available story mission.

More enemy units is fine, as is improved AI, but I didn't feel the original had any issues there. I would get rocked in many battles in the original and if they spotted a character of mine out of position or a bad move I made, it was lights out.

Also, easier to resurrect characters? That's a bit of a bummer, too, as the original made it very tough for most of the game to do that, so you had to be really careful. That said, I would like to see a future game that has a sort of "Live With Your Consequences Mode" for permadeath. Tactics Ogre gave you plenty of story characters to recruit and play with and you could always recruit "generic" characters and build them up, so in some playthroughs I would just live with the characters dying because they could be somewhat replaced. An Ironman Mode or something for that would be cool.

It's a shit moneygrab defended only by people who didn't play past CH1 or no standards whatsoever. Play the original.

Oh, I've played the shit out of the original. It's one of my favorite games ever. I tried the PSP version and honestly I wasn't a fan of some of the changes. I think adding Skills or whatever to the characters was just...not well designed. It had a generic, slapped-on feel. But besides that, the original had that damned training mode. Not sure if any of you have done this, but after every battle in the original you basically had to take your entire team into training, and one by one "kill" the fellow team member who had went up a level in the last battle. Thus your entire party would level up this way. Very odd design as it had to be done after every battle you leveled up in if you wanted a shot at beating the next battle. They removed this from the PSP version, and I think that was probably a good thing.

 

[Hyperion]

The game was definitely not hard enough to need to train after EVERY battle. The further you went in the game, the less you needed to train as a 1 level difference started to mean less and less as you recruited more overpowered story characters, obtained useful gear, and your generics came into their own as part of their specialized training and could easily match / overpower enemy characters through optimal gearing as well as picking up any Tarot Cards that drop during levels. The only exception to this is Wizards. Enemy Wizards were ALWAYS better than your generic Wizards. This became a nonissue once you got Byan, Olivia, and Shelley.

Of course if you wanted to min/max the shit out of your characters, every male character was a Ninja ASAP to maximize Agility gains until you hit Hell Gate, where you could then farm Tarot Cards for stat boosts. Of course, the only stat missing was Agility (likely to do with engine limitations + the WT system to calculate turn order), which made Ninja the "strongest" class in the game because they have the highest Agility growth in the game. But this is also obscenely fucking boring.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I guess we played different games, or maybe it's been too long for me to recall accurately, but I remember the original game being quite punishing and difficult if you didn't level up after almost every battle. The next story battle generally would have enemies one level higher than you, with a boss character one level above that. It was almost suicide to try such a battle with an underleveled party, unless you really didn't mind if a character died. But the caveat here is that my last playthrough of the game (of which I've done several over many years), was quite a long time ago. Perhaps 5-8 years ago or so. So it's also possible I sucked at the game.

Anywho, I'm due for a re-play very soon. I'm just debating on which version to play. I did play a dozen or two hours of the PSP version awhile back and it seemed different in many ways, including new battles and story elements. The Skill system I was not a big fan of, and I don't remember what else was streamlined or changed. Any other differences between the 2?

 

[Hyperion]

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/tactics-ogre-let-us-cling-together.96225/

There's a whole thread on it. Seems to be a split consensus, honestly. I played the PSP version twice. Tried my damnedest to enjoy it, but I just couldn't. Some differences were cool, like the final battle, and the extra dialogue / cutscenes. The shitty leveling system was sorta forgivable. Of all the changes made, the biggest negative imo was the crafting system. Horribly implemented and ruined the entire experience. Not forgivable in the least.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Interesting, thanks. It just sounds like they added way too many convenience features. I would gladly take the PSX version + a No Training mod that auto-levels the party to the highest character level currently in your party and call it a day.

I'm still torn on which one to play, though. I adore the PSX version, but I admit I am somewhat interested in exploring more of the PSP version than what I got to see. Random thought but it's too bad mods can't be made for PPSSPP games or something. I mean, between Tactics Ogre and Dungeons & Dragons: Tactics, they would be amazing games on PC if some of the core things could be tweaked or modded. Then again, a proper PC port would be even better. I can dream, I guess.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I'm constantly amazed that nobody else seems to recall the way levelling worked in the original TO. You basically got 10 xp for every level below a target you managed to hit, and 100 xp for a killing blow. Killing a same level target gave 10 xp and everything else was basically hopeless. More importantly, every level of difference gave a 10 point difference in damage dealt and flat 10% hit chance reduction. So while equals might have 45-55% chance to hit eachother for 20-50 damage depending on the weapon, a character with a 2 level advantage changes that to 25-35% vs 75-85% hit rates and 0-30 damage vs 50-70 damage. Since everyone gets free counter attacks every single time, this basically means a single high level character (say, +3-6 levels depending on how late in the game and class choices) will annihilate everything even if you do nothing but turn auto battle on and go take a shit.

"But you won't level up and then you'll fall behind and need to grind more!"

Nope. Game gave 1 free level up in each story battle to a single character that got enough kills. Since the enemy levels scaled so gradually you only had to grind out a few extra levels at the begining and then you could autobattle the entire rest of the game.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Or just play the game naturally without exploiting it to hell and back. Yeah, that sounds like more fun to me.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I got pretty bored around when you get summon magic and have seen most of the classes. Too repetitive. Every class fights the same way, only the monsters gain special abilities generally, classes just have irrelevant passives like minor stat boosts to nearby beasts or whatever. I recall only ever using one type of magic for most of the game because it had the fastest animation and they all did the same shit. The terrain modifiers were trivial and character stats were basically meaningless.