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AoD combat beta impressions

Jora

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
1,115
Location
Finland
Vince asked me to post my impressions. I completely suck at the combat but I'm still enjoying the beta. :)

"Sorry, I've been meaning to make a forum post about my exploits once I've progressed far enough. However, I kinda suck at this game (didn't get past the heavily armored fellow with the Storm sword - he finished me with only two strikes :shock: ) so I've held back my urge to respond until I've played at least a couple of builds past the three barbarians. I was also thinking of posting my impressions on other gaming boards.

Anyway, it's a tough but very satisfying demo. The presentation is top notch: the animations are smooth (I particularly like the way the opponents fall to the ground when they die. No other game does it as well Tongue ) and the attention to detail is very humbling. I loved walking around the district and marveling the diversity of the architecture (fallen towers, statues, pillars, archways etc.). Oscar did a phenomenal job there. The place doesn't just pretend to be the remains of a post-apocalyptic culture, it is all that and more. Seriously, looking at the "Interface redesign thread" at the Codex and comparing the crude color designs to the almost finished product is, again, very humbling.

I also love the fact that you went through the trouble of creating a huge assortment of exotic weapons with their own backgrounds and tactical pros & cons. Not only does it add an additional layer of depth to the combat mechanics but to the whole world of AoD as well. So on one hand you have all the wonderfull ruined cities built by Oscar, and on the other hand there are all these small pieces of backstory that you've written (be it in the form of exotic weapons or snippets of information in the dialogue with the arena master). One of my early fears was that world-building in this game wouldn't be on par with the role-playing options and the combat. I'm relieved to say that everything I've seen and read puts those fears to rest.

The dialogue with the arena master is both entertaining and informative. That's always a good balance. I'm not a native speaker so I can't comment on the quality of the text from the linguistic or "literary" point of view, but it sure as hell is a lot better than the corny shit that usually passes for RPG writing. I stopped playing Mass Effect after 20 minutes because I couldn't stomach the writing any more (luckily my roommate was able to get some enjoyment out of the game).

As for the combat, it's hard but fun. I love the fact that you added negative dodge and attack modifiers to armor; it forces the player to think of different kinds of builds. The fact that different weapons have their own unique properties seems to be working out great. I was stunned when the gladiator used his trident to keep me at a safe distance from himself. I was never so successful at triggering interruptions with the barbed spear. :(

I found that the best way to beat the three barbarians is to make a lightly armored fighter with high Dodge and 10-12 APs so that you can make a lot of fast attacks that are guaranteed to hit the opponents. High Dodge also has the bonus effect of automatic counter attacks, which is really handy. I couldn't get any of my more heavily armored, Blocking-focused characters past the barbarians. Any tips? :)

On the whole, for a single-player RPG whose main focus isn't combat your system is sufficiently tactical both in theory and practise. Not to mention that it's always good to have a breath of fresh air in an industry that has been so stagnant when it comes to combat design for so long.

There's an AI problem with the crossbow man that has happened twice so far. Usually he keeps his distance from me when he gets the first turn, but on those two occassions he walked a couple of squares towards me before firing a shot. This makes him easier to kill.

I'm sure I forgot something, but the important thing is that the beta is a very well executed piece of software that, from the technical point of view, doesn't pale in comparison to TTOEE or the IE games. The system is original and complex enough, the art direction is great, the world-building is interesting and both the camera and the controls feel intuitive. I have a feeling that the final product, the game itself, will blow even the naysayers away. Just make sure it's as stable as the beta.

So, a game where the combat is as strong as the role-playing and story department? When was the last time we had one of those? Never? Have you considered that you can make history here? :)

Some nitpicking: Get rid of the horrible background color used in the options window and the message windows. I get that you're going for a retro look, but try something like the one in Betrayal at Krondor.

Looting dead bodies becomes pixel hunting because the cursor only reacts to the feet of the body.

At some point my Norton anti-virus started doing its periodical system scan and the screen went back to Windows. The game crashed when I tried to resume it.

The picture of a gladiator shown after the PC's death has way too low resolution."

---------

Apparently the team is now implementing higher resolutions and sounds.
 

WhiskeyWolf

RPG Codex Polish Car Thief
Staff Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,729
Hey guys, more fap material, come and get it.
 

Jora

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
1,115
Location
Finland
screenshot22900001.jpg


Here's a fight against three barbarians. My character is carrying a short spear.

screenshot22800002.jpg


Here's the aftermath of the same fight with an axe-wielder. The guy can split shields, which is awesome.
 

Hory

Erudite
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
3,002
Proof that in AoD you can roleplay a necrophiliac who strips his opponents after defeating them, places them face down with their legs spread and rapes them?
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
35,205
Location
Merida, again
Every time The Codex seems to "forget" about AoD, VD or someone under VD's influence, throws a bone so we can all chew on it for a while.
 

Gwendo

Augur
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
989
The game doesn't have higher resolution or at least anti-aliasing?

Anyway, it's interesting to watch you commend the game's worldbuilding and praise the dialogue... From a COMBAT demo. I guess you were very positively predisposed for this demo. :D
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Gwendo said:
The game doesn't have higher resolution...
We're adding them now.

... or at least anti-aliasing?
You can enable it in the video card settings.

Anyway, it's interesting to watch you commend the game's worldbuilding and praise the dialogue... From a COMBAT demo.
Because it has plenty of dialogues?

More feedback:

Hazelnut:

"Vince has also asked me to post some impressions, so here goes. Just FYI I'm the tester that the screenshots Vince posted are from. I've reached Mack 3 times and killed him once. I didn't last long on the next fight though. lol

I'm finding testing the demo a lot of fun. (to-wife: yes, I really AM working dear!) It was rather frustrating at first because it is pretty hard and unforgiving, and if you make a mistake it's very hard to recover from - it requires understanding the system and walking quite a fine line. A real challenge, especially Ironman! I've agreed with Vince that I'll be adding some extra bits to the readme for him - to try to alleviate some of the misconceptions I think it's easy to have when you start. Having said that I beat the 3 Barbari with my very first try - I was lucky, and had 3hp left!

A few things I've picked up / found worked / tips:

1) Critical chances are compared against the highest score you have of shield vsCrit, armour vsCrit, or crit skill. Having defence against crits is very important once you get past battle with the three Barberi. I think the extreme damage of crits sometimes are auto-lose, and Vince is working out how to tweak this to not be so bad.

2) Make sure you raise the char stats relevant to the weapon you choose to start with higher weapon skill. And plan how many APs you'll have with target armour. The max APs are pretty severe, and I've not tried an 8AP build yet. Just seems so restrictive. Your APs and block/dodge will also inform choice of weapon weight. (high AP, light armour, dodge char with a huge hammer is a great laugh... at least until someone pokes him in the heart with crit of course. At first I was trying to use heavier weapons with low APs, but I think I do the opposite now. The heaviest weapons really cut down flexibility in battle unless you have high APs.

3) I find with a melee build, the first 3 combats are easy and you shouldn't need to buy anything from the shop. Just equip the buckler from zealot for the crossbow guy (#3) - I usually pump first 20 points into weapon skill, with maybe a bit into critical - but I've not got a high crit build to work so far really. Then next 10 into dodge/block. Then either buy an armour of you target max AP that you can afford (either before or after[harder] - fight #4), or for 11/12 AP types (maybe 10, depending on other factors) just use the leather from crossbow boy (then studded Papa) and buy a better weapon.

4) If you buy armour early on, then you probably want to wait for steel weapons before buying a new one. Maximising purchases is the only way to survive. I think reducing the penalty for sold eq would make the demo a bit easier.

5) When going up against the 3 Barberi (the first interesting, and difficult fight) I usually have weapon skill around 120-130 and dodge/block around 65-75, which means not much goes into crit - as I said, I can't make that work as it seems to rely on chance too much. If using a shield, I have a spare or 2 and try to manoeuvre so that leader (with axe) engages a turn after the other two. All things being equal, I kill the hammer guy first, then sword, then leader - usually because leader often attacks from a diagonal and I use short, fast weapons mostly. The hammer guy can completely fuck you up if he knocks you down right after your round, free hits for all. But if mr. sword is worse for wear then I finish him first. Basically Whirlwind and cross those fingers. The beauty of a fast weapon or enough APs is that you can ww and then do a fast attack. Four attacks in one round. I usually have 72% THC against non-leader guys with ww during this battle - more and they'll hit you too much.

6) I usually wait to allocate SPs until I'm in the next battle and within range, so I can adjust THC to be ~95% for a fast attack. If I know I'll have something fired at me then I allocate half to defence skill before the battle. You have to have a high vsCrit on either a shield or armour, or have a high crit skill to get past the sword whispering guy - he'll crit you to death very fast otherwise. This is as far as I get with a dodge char usually, because I can't find a way of surviving with a high crit, it's just too much of a gamble.

7) Don't bother with a helmet until the trident guy, and if you're feeling lucky then hold off until Mack (#15 according to Vince). Whatever you do don't try to fight Mack without a protected head - he'll stab you right in the fucking eye! Evil

8 ) Nearly forgot, even though block says it works with a weapon - it doesn't! It only works with a shield - apparently no one has invented parrying yet. Tongue


I could go on (and on) but I need to get to bed soon, and I've been a bit short on sleep this weekend for some reason. Also, I want to have once last go before going to bed.

I'll not repeat what Tuomas said about quality / animations etc - it's all very very good. I usually don't do ironman, not really my thing, but this has been keeping my interest very well. It's damned addictive, because it's a complex and nuanced system. There have definitely been times where I've wanted to punch the screen, and that's why I don't usually do ironman! ;-) Hammers and Axes are my favorite, followed by swords and spears. I've got nowhere with ranged yet, but then I've been having too much darn fun smacking the shit out of stuff.

Summary: needs more work & tweaking, but it's friggin' awesome guys!"

I'll bug Galsiah for his impressions next, but here is what he said so far before disappearing:

"So far it's been a lot of fun. ... *10 pages of helpful feedback later*... That's all for now. If any of this makes no sense at all, I blame sleep deprivation - the damn thing kept my interest for rather too long."
 

asper

Arcane
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
2,206
Project: Eternity
Minor nitpick: the transition between the ground and the arena wall looks strange, too abrupt. I'm aware this might be something that cannot be fixed though.

Looks great otherwise.
 

Jora

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
1,115
Location
Finland
Gwendo said:
Anyway, it's interesting to watch you commend the game's worldbuilding and praise the dialogue... From a COMBAT demo. I guess you were very positively predisposed for this demo. :D

I may have been, but I've also read pretty much every piece of dialogue Vince has made public and I like what I see.
 

Silellak

Cipher
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Tucson, AZ
Melcar said:
Vault Dweller said:
Gwendo said:
... or at least anti-aliasing?
You can enable it in the video card settings.

It's usually better to not rely on drivers. Cuts back on graphical issues latter on. But whatever.

I could be mistaken, but I believe the full game will feature direct anti-aliasing support as part of the in-game options. It's just not important enough for the demo.

Is this a correct assumption, VD?
 

Nick

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
317
Location
Over the hills and far away
Silellak said:
I could be mistaken, but I believe the full game will feature direct anti-aliasing support as part of the in-game options. It's just not important enough for the demo.

Is this a correct assumption, VD?

Unfortunately, no. TGE doesn't support AA.
 

Silellak

Cipher
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Tucson, AZ
Flashback said:
Silellak said:
I could be mistaken, but I believe the full game will feature direct anti-aliasing support as part of the in-game options. It's just not important enough for the demo.

Is this a correct assumption, VD?

Unfortunately, no. TGE doesn't support AA.

Really? That's a shame.

I suppose it might be nice to have a note in the Readme or even in the Settings area in the game itself to explain to users that they will need to enable AA on the driver-level.
 

Nick

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
317
Location
Over the hills and far away
Silellak said:
Really? That's a shame.

I suppose it might be nice to have a note in the Readme or even in the Settings area in the game itself to explain to users that they will need to enable AA on the driver-level.

Good idea.
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
35,205
Location
Merida, again
Flashback said:
Silellak said:
I could be mistaken, but I believe the full game will feature direct anti-aliasing support as part of the in-game options. It's just not important enough for the demo.

Is this a correct assumption, VD?

Unfortunately, no. TGE doesn't support AA.

That sucks, but not the end of the world.
About the resolutions, will there be good WS support? As long as the interface scales properly I'm happy.
 

Nick

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
317
Location
Over the hills and far away
Melcar said:
That sucks, but not the end of the world.

The end of the world will begin when AA will be considered an important RPG feature at Codex =)

About the resolutions, will there be good WS support? As long as the interface scales properly I'm happy.

There will be full WS support. For the full game - 100%. Not sure about the demo, we have very little time left.
 

Silellak

Cipher
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Tucson, AZ
Flashback said:
Melcar said:
That sucks, but not the end of the world.

The end of the world will begin when AA will be considered an important RPG feature at Codex =)

There are more graphics whores here than you'd think, really. It's a little scary.
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
I don't give a shit about AA in a game like this. Just as long as I don't have to play it in a tiny window, I'm fine. I get eye strain playing windowed games on my 1680x1050 monitor.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
7,953
Location
Cuntington Manor
Matt7895 said:
I don't give a shit about AA in a game like this. Just as long as I don't have to play it in a tiny window, I'm fine. I get eye strain playing windowed games on my 1680x1050 monitor.

Just lower the resolution on games that do this. If you are getting eye strain, that is the problem, your resolution is too high for the size of the screen.

Things sound good so far VD. Sounds like a nicely detailed combat system, even if it is only for a single player.
 

1eyedking

Erudite
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
3,591
Location
Argentina
I'm actually a huge fan of AA. It makes 3D games look more 2D-ish, in a way, so I'm all for it.

It's a shame AoD won't have it, but it's not a game killer either...or is it?
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
35,205
Location
Merida, again
As far as AA goes, I prefer it on 3D games as well. Yeah, I'm a graphics whore so whatever. I grew up on 2D games, so I'm used to some level of "smoothness" in games.
 

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