Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

AoD Lighting sucks. Badly.

Hory

Erudite
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
3,002
OK so why does the game look like a no-lights, textured mesh viewport from 3ds max?
Everything is so white and artifical, like playing Quake 2 in software mode.
As a person with some 3d modelling experience I can tell you that a few lights can make a world of difference.
It's not about graphics whoring, it's about doing simple changes for huge improvements.
So please do everyone a favor and bring this up with the 3D artists.
I don't know if you have day/night cycles or not (not that I like them), but you could replace "the world where daytime has no shadows" with an "almost at dusk" setting.
It would go well with the decadence setting (color-wise too - orange/brownish).
I see there are hanging lanterns in the game world, why not use them? Torque can probably handle them.
Without meaning any offense to the 3D devs, I have to say that right now the game looks very unprofessional. Not low-budget. What I mean is that it doesn't include some of the basic elements that 3D games should have.

Oh and the interface isn't very pleasant either (especially the color... and some antialiasing for the font would be an improvement too).
Hope my criticism was constructive. Looking forward to AoD.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Hory said:
Without meaning any offense to the 3D devs, I have to say that right now the game looks very unprofessional. Not low-budget. What I mean is that it doesn't include some of the basic elements that 3D games should have.
Ok. I lied to you. I'm not a famous professional game designer. Please forgive me.
 

The Public Enemy

Educated
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
51
Take your self-important masturbatory advice and shove it, shitbag. The game is never going to come out with all this shit for brains moaning.
 

whatusername

Scholar
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
619
Location
burp
There's something wrong with the lighting? I didn't notice. Maybe it's just me, but the graphix look just fine right now. Nothing professional, but it works.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,578
How hard/easy would it be to implement? Would it take hours upon hours of work to include it instead of adding to the core game itself?

These are the things the OP needs to answer. If theres something else that will miss out because Vince and crew are implementing some fuzz that may only make a tiny difference for massive workload, I say screw it.
 

xemous

Arcane
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
1,107
Location
AU
He's right though, the game looks like complete shit.
 

jeansberg

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
173
I think what's most important is that the lighting and other fx are consistent across different types of scenes and different types of surfaces.
 

Hory

Erudite
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
3,002
Obviously, the only thing that ignorant morans understood from my post was that graphics are important to me and that I expect the game to look good by today's standards. Not so, but I do think it's a wrong move not to make simple adjustments in order to improve the success of the game. And if you're not interested in taking a day to implement good lighting (which you could even learn in the same day), then you deserve to stay small, and probably will, with this attitude.
And "professional" doesn't have to mean implementing the latest technology tricks or having a huge team of experts, it means having and keeping a quality standard, and obviously, not ruining the overall quality of the game with a few extremely low quality elements.

OK, I've wasted too much time on this. Do what you will.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Hory said:
Not so, but I do think it's a wrong move not to make simple adjustments in order to improve the success of the game.
Simple adjustments?

And if you're not interested in taking a day to implement good lighting (which you could even learn in the same day)...
It gets better and better. One of us is a moron. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and I assume that it's me. Now, please explain in details how I can improve the game dramatically in a day or two.

... then you deserve to stay small, and probably will, with this attitude.
With what attitude? Not following immediately every "uh, dude, I think u can make your gaem look better if u try" advice?

And "professional" ... means having and keeping a quality standard, and obviously, not ruining the overall quality of the game with a few extremely low quality elements.
I think it should be obvious to most people that my team and I are doing our best here. Which means that we don't know / lack skills to do better. Which means that if you know - truly know - how to help us, please do so. If you want to make assumptions and/or have no experience with Torque, your "please make a bettar gaem" posts are pointless.

OK, I've wasted too much time on this.
2-3 minutes to write both posts (and that PM)?
 

Hazelnut

Erudite
Joined
Dec 17, 2002
Messages
1,490
Location
UK
Hory said:
And if you're not interested in taking a day to implement good lighting (which you could even learn in the same day), then you deserve to stay small, and probably will, with this attitude.

Please could you say how you came up with the estimate of a single day? References to what kind of work (to professional standard of course) you've done with Torque and/or other 3d engine would be appreciated.
 

Hory

Erudite
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
3,002
With what attitude? Not following immediately every "uh, dude, I think u can make your gaem look better if u try" advice?
No, with the attitude, "OMG I'm not a famous developer so I won't improve the game".
I think it should be obvious to most people that my team and I are doing our best here. Which means that we don't know / lack skills to do better.
I think you've done pretty good so far. You don't know how to do it better? That's where the third party suggestions come in. If you're willing to understand them you'll learn to do better.
Which means that if you know - truly know - how to help us, please do so. If you want to make assumptions and/or have no experience with Torque, your "please make a bettar gaem" posts are pointless.
I gave you a suggestion... it's not my job to implement it and just because I don't make a tutorial for you, it doesn't mean it's pointless. And maybe I would make one, but it's been about three years since I worked with Torque, and I have no idea how it's like now.
But I'm talking about principles here, which are a lot older.
Vault Dweller said:
It gets better and better. One of us is a moron. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and I assume that it's me. Now, please explain in details how I can improve the game dramatically in a day or two.
I will give you some general ideas:
Make the ambient light less powerful. Move it more towards dusk. Have the buildings cast shadows towards a side, not straight down at the ground. Right now they look like the "sun" is at 12 o'clock. The indoors will become darker too. Don't only use one light (the ambient one). Add localised light sources (supported by indoor candles, lanterns, etc). Have more light/shadow contrasts. You'll also get some darker patches of earth to compensate for the repetitiveness. Try some slightly colored lights from time to time. Slightly blueish in a temple, slightly green in some abandoned cave (or whatever "special" areas there are in the game).

Some examples:
240_2.png

6_2.png

28_1.png

Bad:
darkeart_screen003.jpg

Good:
223_1.png



Hazelnut said:
Please could you say how you came up with the estimate of a single day? References to what kind of work (to professional standard of course) you've done with Torque and/or other 3d engine would be appreciated.
Well, I have no idea how large the AoD game world is, so my estimate can't be very accurate, but I guess it all depends on how much the devs are willing to repeat the process of adding and adjusting lights without getting bored. It's not a difficult task like "we're not good enough to do it". It's repetitive and they probably won't work like hounds to finish it in a day, but I think it could be done. But I'm not interested in proving anything to you, and you don't have to be a developer to know what is wrong about something.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Hory said:
With what attitude? Not following immediately every "uh, dude, I think u can make your gaem look better if u try" advice?
No, with the attitude, "OMG I'm not a famous developer so I won't improve the game".
Well, we delayed the game by more than a year to switch to a 3D engine, and tried to implement most suggestions (see the much evolved dialogue window, for example), so your claim is baseless.

There is a difference, however, between "hey, you should tweak this, here is how..." and "hey, you should tweak this".

I think you've done pretty good so far. You don't know how to do it better? That's where the third party suggestions come in. If you're willing to understand them you'll learn to do better.
Another generic advice. Tell me something I don't know.

I gave you a suggestion... it's not my job to implement it and just because I don't make a tutorial for you, it doesn't mean it's pointless. And maybe I would make one, but it's been about three years since I worked with Torque, and I have no idea how it's like now.
I'm not asking for a tutorial and I'm not asking you to do it for me. What I'm asking you is to tell me exactly what I can do to fix the problem. Imo, the models aint the problem, the engine is.

Make the ambient light less powerful. Move it more towards dusk. Have the buildings cast shadows towards a side, not straight down at the ground. Right now they look like the "sun" is at 12 o'clock. The indoors will become darker too. Don't only use one light (the ambient one). Add localised light sources (supported by indoor candles, lanterns, etc). Have more light/shadow contrasts. You'll also get some darker patches of earth to compensate for the repetitiveness. Try some slightly colored lights from time to time. Slightly blueish in a temple, slightly green in some abandoned cave (or whatever "special" areas there are in the game).
Torque has an issue with light and shadows. We bought the Lighting add-on, but I can't say that it fixed the situation.

... and you don't have to be a developer to know what is wrong about something.
No, you don't have to be. However, there is a huge difference between pointing at a problem and being able to fix a problem, especially if the problem is a property of an old engine.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
Hazelnut said:
Hory said:
And if you're not interested in taking a day to implement good lighting (which you could even learn in the same day), then you deserve to stay small, and probably will, with this attitude.

Please could you say how you came up with the estimate of a single day? References to what kind of work (to professional standard of course) you've done with Torque and/or other 3d engine would be appreciated.

Didn't Carmack do dynamic lighting in half a day? And VD is easily twice the graphics programmer Carmack is!
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,578
Why did you change to 3D Vince? does it allow you guys to work in some better elements?

Please don't tell me it was to cater to the dumbass crowd....
 

whatusername

Scholar
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
619
Location
burp
I remember seeing devs said it was about space. The creators would have to make different sprites (whatever you kids call them) for each paperdoll model, putting in 200mb of useless space. With 3D graphix, you don't have to waste 200mb, it's all... well... 3D! Judging by the 2D screens, I'm pretty sure it looked even worse than shit.
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
Who cares about lights? Great games were made using only a simple global light scheme. What maters is quests, turnbase and role-playing. The graphics are more than good enough.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Well, I agree with the OP that lighting can make a huge difference in graphics and might be somewhat elementary to implement. If it would only take a week or so of dev time, I'd love to see a significant improvement in lighting; if it would be much more than that, forget it.

The only concern I have with the graphics right now is that most screenies look kinda "flat". Higher-res textures can help with that, but more complex lighting would be by far the greatest improvement.

If it doesn't happen, I'll still happily play the game...but I have at least two "mainstream" idiot friends who would probably play AoD with a little more eye candy - and I'm certain would love it - but will probably not touch it otherwise. So yeah, I think better lighting could have an impact.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
Ladonna said:
Why did you change to 3D Vince? does it allow you guys to work in some better elements?

Please don't tell me it was to cater to the dumbass crowd....

RPGDot didn't think it was pretty enough.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom