AoD - Readme: the combat demo survival guide

[obediah]

Good luck justifying a complexity scale where 60 is perfect, but 120 is just too damn confusing.

Where did I say confusing?

Complex? Numerous? Tedious?

Numerous/tedious and confusing are the same thing now?

I was asking. You claim universal ammo a convenience because 120 options is too many to manage. Who can't manage that many? Developer? Gamers? And why can't they manage that many? confusion? complexity? tediousness? engine limitations?

It's a lot more palatable to the brain than shooting an arrow out of a crossbow. And of course, all of the possible restrictions must be crap because you thought of one that is crap?

Everything you think is crap is crap? Is that the new definition?

That doesn't make a lick of sense. Just because limiting combinations of poison and metal doesn't make sense, doesn't mean limiting other combinations does make sense.

Games have nothing to do with realism, so if your brain can handle the fact that you can survive after being cleaved with a 2H axe, that you can easily carry 200 pounds of armor and weapons in your invisible backpack, that you don't need to sleep or eat, that you can master electronics in less than a day, than I'm sure your brain won't fall apart when presented with the universal ammo for bows and crossbows concept.

Oh - I forgot. Realism is a dirty word for you. What if we talk about some nebulous collection of qualities in a game world that draw parallels to the world we know or one we can imagine and heighten immersion and player investment by creating a sense of familiarity and encouraging the suspension of disbelief.

* Limit bow and/or crossbow to two types of ammunition

Why and how is it a good thing again?

Because it maintains the convenience of 60 choices, while also providing additional differences between a crossbow and bow.

* one or more metals do not hold the work of a master crafstman, or can not be hardened.

Why? Since you like realism so much, I'm sure you're aware that are hardening techniques for bronze, iron, steel, and a lot of other metals.

Aw, VD is pouting! Forgive me for not knowing that the arts of master crafting and hardening meteoric metal would be so integral to a world where you can shoot anything out of anything.

* certain metals are too heavy to construct a jagged head, or too soft to construct a piercing head.

THAT makes sense?

As far as I know, YES. Do you think there is a reason that the military uses depleted uranium rather than pure gold to pierce armor?

Snark away, but these sorts of limitations is a much more interesting way of reducing the number of combinations than universal ammo. Maybe it's a little too inconvenient for your target audience though.

Yeah I know - the realism you embrace is absolutely necessary, and the realism you abstract is soul-crushing tedium. That's just the way it is - not at all subjective and absolutely no chance of triggering insights that force you to revise your criticisms of other developers.

Where did I say realism? Can't you feel like you totally put me in my place without making shit up?

Rather than getting bogged down in whether or not shooting a bolt out of a longbow has anything to do with realism....

You didn't answer my question.

I didn't make anything up, I just used a word that you went into a tizzy over rather than responding to my point.

you can just skip to justifying how universal ammo in AoD is "removing unnecessary complexity", yet doing it in other games, or merging axes and hammers is "dumbing down". For the record, I'm going with they are the same thing and any difference is defined by the personal preferences of the observer.

Well, since you're having problems grasping obvious concepts:

Let me guess - you'll miscast each decision in a very objective light that shows the other two were definitely wrong, and yours is definitively right.

Merging hammers and axes into one Blunt category in Oblivion serves one purpose - reduces the number of skills because having too many skill is confusing and we want little Johny to master all skills and guilds.

Ah I see. They decided to remove what they saw as unnecessary complexity to make the game more convenient for the player! You believe the feature added enough to the game to justify the complexity.

Merging ALL ammo into one universal ammo in Deus Ex 2 eliminates ammo management completely, replacing it with the ammo bar. It REMOVES a gameplay element to make the game easier.

Ah I see. They decided to remove what they saw as unnecessary complexity to make the game more convenient for the player! You believe the feature added enough to the game to justify the complexity.

Merging arrows and bolts into universal ammo in AoD does NOT reduce skills and does NOT remove a gameplay element. You still have a shitload of different ammo to use/manage. It removes an unnecessary duplication of all ranged ammo.

Ah I see. You decided to remove what you see as unnecessary complexity to make the game more convenient for the player! You believe the feature failed to add enough to the game to justify the complexity.

Neither a crossbowman nor a bowman character will be affected by the universal ammo.

You can't loot or steal items from people? If I shoot some dude with a crossbow in the face with my last universal ammo and then find 10 universal ammos on his body then I've been affected. Maybe you don't feel that justified the different ammo types. Congratulations! as a developer, you get to make all sorts of subjective decisions.

Both characters will have all ammo options. That's the part and the key difference that you're so stubbornly refusing to grasp.

I did grasp that both bows and crossbows will use the universal ammo if that's what you're getting at.

If you need my help with anything else, let me know.

Will do, thanks!

 

[Silellak]

So basically, your only issues with the concept of universal ammo are:

1. It somehow takes away from that illusive quality of "immersion" in a way that other non-realistic gameplay-based design decisions don't.

2. If you're a bow-user, and you kill a crossbow man, you can use the ammo you get from looting the crossbow man with your bow.

Only #2 effects gameplay in any way, and #1 is an incredibly subjective thing where some things will bother certain people but not others, and so there's no way to please everyone in that regard.

I really don't see how that incredibly minor gameplay aspect compares to the issues discussed with Oblivion or Deus Ex 2. You can obviously over-generalize it to say "they are both design decisions that simplify gameplay", but that's on the same level of claiming that Oblivion and AoD are the same because "they are both video games you can play on the computer."

Yes, they share a basic similarity, but the devil is in the details. To claim that they are similar in any other way makes your argument laughable at best.

 

[random newfag]

When are you going to be like Bioware and release the entire story element of your game to shitty music?

 

[Melcar]

The problem is that it's gay. Fix that little hurdle and we will all be a little happier.

 

[spectre]

Merging hammers and axes into one Blunt category in Oblivion serves one purpose - reduces the number of skills because having too many skill is confusing and we want little Johny to master all skills and guilds.

Just to get back to this bit. I have little love for Bolivion, but this design decision I am ready to defend. From the point of view of stances, swings used, ets. axes and maces are indeed quite similar.
(ADOM's proficiency system also follows this logic btw.)

On topic:
Releasing the readme file before the demo is... without precedent, to my knowledge. Yeah, one can say it is an original decision, but I can't help thinking it is a bit unprofessionas (as in: hai guys, see what we did there? --->and don't get me wrong, I like this kind of non professional approach, reminds me of the well known by gamers for gamers gig.)

Universal ammo - i can bear this, so long as it only applies to crossbows and bows. (by the way, what's up with slings, they should be fairly popular weapons in the setting). Also, there's various types of ammo are available and certain depth is maintained. (And there were many, many games that had this even more simplified).

Also, release the goddamn demo! Do it faggots.

 

[Gwendo]

Great. Now they will take 3 weeks polishing and tweaking the readme file. At this rate, we won't see the demo this year!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Releasing the readme file before the demo is... without precedent, to my knowledge. Yeah, one can say it is an original decision, but I can't help thinking it is a bit unprofessionas...

Releasing is a strong word. It implies some official act and publicity. We simply posted it on our forums to see if the descriptions are clear and to get some suggestions. This one, for example, was very helpful.

 

[Melcar]

VD is a cool guy. He is a master of words and is not afraid of nothing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I was asking. You claim universal ammo a convenience because 120 options is too many to manage. Who can't manage that many? Developer? Gamers? And why can't they manage that many? confusion? complexity? tediousness? engine limitations?

It clutters the inventory (both yours and shopkeepers'). Scrolling down through a shitload of basically identical options is tedious. It adds nothing to gameplay.

That doesn't make a lick of sense. Just because limiting combinations of poison and metal doesn't make sense, doesn't mean limiting other combinations does make sense.

I agree. It doesn't make a lick of sense. You may want to reread your sentence again. I think you've just got a bit confused about things that make sense and things that don't. Still, your heart is in the right place and I agree with what you said.

Oh - I forgot. Realism is a dirty word for you.

Keep making shit up? It's not a dirty word. I like realism and I would love to play a realistic survival RPG, but realism isn't a common feature in "traditional" RPGs. Abstract concepts are, much like in chess.

What if we talk about some nebulous collection of qualities in a game world that draw parallels to the world we know or one we can imagine and heighten immersion and player investment by creating a sense of familiarity and encouraging the suspension of disbelief.

It must have been hard for you to play PST, what with all the magic spells, undead, immortal amnesiac, and modrons (living creatures that resemble geometric shapes with humanoid limbs, representing physical manifestation of law without regard to good or evil).

* Limit bow and/or crossbow to two types of ammunition

Why and how is it a good thing again?

Because it maintains the convenience of 60 choices, while also providing additional differences between a crossbow and bow.

Differences by limiting options? I don't see how it's beneficial, to be honest. There are meaningful differences between crossbows and bows, and I don't see the need to reduce options to create artificial differences. I'd like to remind you again that the universal ammo doesn't limit your options and doesn't remove anything from the game, unlike the Deus Ex design and your suggestions.

* one or more metals do not hold the work of a master crafstman, or can not be hardened.

Why? Since you like realism so much, I'm sure you're aware that are hardening techniques for bronze, iron, steel, and a lot of other metals.

Aw, VD is pouting! Forgive me for not knowing that the arts of master crafting and hardening meteoric metal would be so integral to a world where you can shoot anything out of anything.

It's not integral. Saying that you can use the same ammo is a lesser evil comparing to telling the player that steel or bronze can't be hardened. The former is a minor stretch, the latter is ignorance. The former doesn't affect a bowman or a crossbowman's experience at all. The latter limits your options just because.

As far as I know, YES. Do you think there is a reason that the military uses depleted uranium rather than pure gold to pierce armor?

That's your analogy? You're comparing weapon metal to non-weapon metal known for its softness to make a point in a conversation about weapon metals?

Maybe it's a little too inconvenient for your target audience though.

Funny.

Let me guess - you'll miscast each decision in a very objective light that shows the other two were definitely wrong, and yours is definitively right.

You are free to draw whatever conclusion you want.

"Merging hammers and axes into one Blunt category in Oblivion serves one purpose - reduces the number of skills because having too many skill is confusing and we want little Johny to master all skills and guilds."

Ah I see. They decided to remove what they saw as unnecessary complexity to make the game more convenient for the player! You believe the feature added enough to the game to justify the complexity.

"Merging ALL ammo into one universal ammo in Deus Ex 2 eliminates ammo management completely, replacing it with the ammo bar. It REMOVES a gameplay element to make the game easier."

Ah I see. They decided to remove what they saw as unnecessary complexity to make the game more convenient for the player! You believe the feature added enough to the game to justify the complexity.

"Merging arrows and bolts into universal ammo in AoD does NOT reduce skills and does NOT remove a gameplay element. You still have a shitload of different ammo to use/manage. It removes an unnecessary duplication of all ranged ammo."

Ah I see. You decided to remove what you see as unnecessary complexity to make the game more convenient for the player! You believe the feature failed to add enough to the game to justify the complexity.

Such a convincing performance. You're role-playing an ESFer so perfectly. I was completely immersed and was about to call you a dumbfuck, but then I remembered that it was you, and I know that you're not stupid, so why the charade?

Case #1: a skill is removed. A player gets less and does less in the game.
Case #2: a mechanic is removed. A player gets less and does less in the game.
Case #3: a duplication is removed. A player is NOT affected.

You can't loot or steal items from people? If I shoot some dude with a crossbow in the face with my last universal ammo and then find 10 universal ammos on his body then I've been affected.

Start a petition.

 

[Dionysus]

Releasing is a strong word. It implies some official act and publicity.

No, "releasing" isn't really a strong word. The forums are available to the public, so it is appropriate.

And it is a little weird to look for public feedback to instructions for a demo that the public can't currently access.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Releasing is a strong word. It implies some official act and publicity.

No, "releasing" isn't really a strong word. The forums are available to the public, so it is appropriate.

So when I'm typing this post, I'm not just typing something, I'm officially releasing my opinion? Groovy.

And it is a little weird to look for public feedback to instructions for a demo that the public can't currently access.

When I buy a game, the first thing I do is look at the manual, looking at anything important that might affect my gameplay experience. Sometimes manuals do a good job explaining game mechanics and sometimes they don't, in which case you look for the info elsewhere.

Considering that in many cases you read a manual and learn about the mechanics before you actually play the game, I don't see why there are "but we haven't even played the game yet!" outcries. I'm not asking you if the rules are correct. I'm asking you if the readme gave you a good idea about the game's mechanics or if something isn't clear.

 

[Gold]

All I have to say is: It is Thursday, how long do I have to wait for the save game editor?

And VD you deserve a medal for dealing with this scum on a consistent basis.

 

[Lumpy]

I can't wait to play it and tell everyone how shitty it is.

Goes without saying.

There is dumbing down (one ammo type for everything) and there is eliminating unnecessary complexity (60 is better than 120).

As always there is a balancing act to pull off. For some, there is no such thing as unnecessary complexity. For others, no game can be dumbed down sufficiently.
Combining bolts and arrows seems reasonably sensible to me though.

Imagine a long list of up to 120 arrows/bolts in your inventory. Imagine right-clicking on your bow/xbow to change ammo and getting a mile long list of possible options. Combing them was definitely the right decision.

You could always have the ammo selection for bows not show bolts, you know.

So, presuming a character only uses crossbows, how does the existence of a shitload of arrow types affect him? It's not like he's going to have any of those in his inventory.
Unless he's a crossbow and bow user. In which case, universal ammo is a gameplay simplification for him.

 

[sportforredneck]

VD, you have to delay the game until you have your very own Penny Arcade comic that is gritty and deep.

 

[Forest Dweller]

VD, do you ever sometimes feel like you're throwing pearls before swine? (sfrn pun not intended) I think I would get discouraged in your position.

 

[Dionysus]

So when I'm typing this post, I'm not just typing something, I'm officially releasing my opinion? Groovy.

Yes. But it's only "official" if you represent an authoritative body, or if you are very narcissistic.

When I buy a game, the first thing I do is look at the manual, looking at anything important that might affect my gameplay experience.

Sure. But it isn't very easy to judge the technical merits of a manual without having any experience with the game. That is, unless the manual is extremely poor.

 

[sportforredneck]

(sfrn pun not intended)

Ha.

Ha Ha.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So, presuming a character only uses crossbows, how does the existence of a shitload of arrow types affect him? It's not like he's going to have any of those in his inventory.

It's not like he won't loot dead bodies and chests. It's not like he won't have to buy ammo from shopkeepers and have to scroll through different ammo types.

Unless he's a crossbow and bow user. In which case, universal ammo is a gameplay simplification for him.

Now, why would anyone be both bow and xbow user? And even if that was the case, I usually carry 5-8 different ammo types. Do you really want to double it just for the sake of authenticity? Simplification is offering one ammo type for all guns or one arrow type. Offering 3 different ammo types plus various upgrades is as far from simplification as it gets.

Sure. But it isn't very easy to judge the technical merits of a manual without having any experience with the game.

On the contrary. It's very easy to do so, unless you want to tell me that you were never ever disappointed with a manual (before touching the game). Mass Effect, for example, had a worthless manual.

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

in mass effect's (manual's) defense, im not sure what you would really need the manual for...

 

[thesheeep]

And VD you deserve a medal for dealing with this scum on a consistent basis.

This.

VD, do you ever sometimes feel like you're throwing pearls before swine? (sfrn pun not intended) I think I would get discouraged in your position.

And this.

Seriously, guys, this is embarassing. All those made-of-thin-air arguments why there should be 2 types of ammo. Wtf?
Yeah, I'd like to have two of those types as well, but mainly because I am used to that. And really, just google around a bit, bolts and arrows don't seem to be too different to me. You could fire both with both, and if depicted realistically, you would have some mali. That's it.
And it's not in AoD. Oh the tragedy.
Really not worth all the fuss you guys are making just because you see some vulnerable point.

And... I don't even read manuals before playing games. Not even if the installation takes some time. I read them when I want to know how to do something or when I'm just plain bored and feel like reading a manual.

 

[Melcar]

Not reading manuals is for fags.

...bolts and arrows don't seem to be too different to me...

Bolts are shorter and heavier for one thing.

 

[Haba]

Seriously, guys, this is embarassing. All those made-of-thin-air arguments why there should be 2 types of ammo. Wtf?

Year after year, shitty dumbed down POS console port after another, RPGCodex's mind has... broken. Unable to appreciate anything anymore, it continues its torturous existence, fueled on hate and hate only.

 

[The Ticktockman]

You know, my intention when I brought up the "universal ammo" issue wasn't to cause the shitstorm that ensued. I was (naively) thinking someone else would post a calm critique of it.

I agree that people are being silly and irrational, but I also think there is a legitimate concern here. Obviously it's not a game-breaker, but I feel that combining arrows and bolts into one ammo type feels a little, I don't know, tacky.

While obediah was a little bitch about it, I kind of liked his main point: if you're looking to minimize the number of different "ammo" types, please cut something else. I don't care what. Make some clever excuse why one of the metal types can't be used for projectiles, or get rid of one of the other modifiers. Then you can have arrows and bolts without having too many different ammo types to deal with.

Again, all I'm saying is that while it's a minor detail, it's one of those niggling details that could really bug a person playing the game. I personally would be happier to have arrows and bolts, but, say, no meteor ammo (or something else).

The End

 

[thesheeep]

Yeah, I can easily agree with that.

 

[Silellak]

While obediah was a little bitch about it, I kind of liked his main point: if you're looking to minimize the number of different "ammo" types, please cut something else. I don't care what. Make some clever excuse why one of the metal types can't be used for projectiles, or get rid of one of the other modifiers. Then you can have arrows and bolts without having too many different ammo types to deal with.

Again, all I'm saying is that while it's a minor detail, it's one of those niggling details that could really bug a person playing the game. I personally would be happier to have arrows and bolts, but, say, no meteor ammo (or something else).

The End

I disagree. Combining arrows and bolts into a single ammo type has little-to-no effect on actual gameplay, while removing an entire type of ammo would have a much more significant effect, and the only trade-off for that loss of a gameplay element would be that "a few people would feel better."