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AoD - Readme: the combat demo survival guide

Seymour

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
152
Not that I take much issue about this universal ammo thing here, but couldn't all vendors and rangers carry a quiver item like someone suggested earlier that would open up another subscreen on your inventory containing only ammo? Like Fallout's bags, but only able to carry bolts or arrows - one type of quiver for each.

This way both ammo types could be in without cluttering inventories for most people, and the 60 maximum would remain the same even for rangers.
 

thesheeep

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Haba said:
Year after year, shitty dumbed down POS console port after another, RPGCodex's mind has... broken. Unable to appreciate anything anymore, it continues its torturous existence, fueled on hate and hate only.

Hmmm...
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The Ticktockman

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Messages
344
Location
Austin, TX
Silellak said:
The Ticktockman said:
While obediah was a little bitch about it, I kind of liked his main point: if you're looking to minimize the number of different "ammo" types, please cut something else. I don't care what. Make some clever excuse why one of the metal types can't be used for projectiles, or get rid of one of the other modifiers. Then you can have arrows and bolts without having too many different ammo types to deal with.

Again, all I'm saying is that while it's a minor detail, it's one of those niggling details that could really bug a person playing the game. I personally would be happier to have arrows and bolts, but, say, no meteor ammo (or something else).

The End

I disagree. Combining arrows and bolts into a single ammo type has little-to-no effect on actual gameplay, while removing an entire type of ammo would have a much more significant effect, and the only trade-off for that loss of a gameplay element would be that "a few people would feel better."

While it may not affect gameplay, I don't think it's something you can just write off the way you are.

Even though this is an exaggerated example, imagine if energy weapons in fallout used the same ammo as small guns. It's just not right.

Like I said before, it's nowhere close to a deal-breaker, but it just feels like it could be handled in a more "realistic" way. Yes, things like HP and carrying weight are unrealistic, but those are examples of abstractions that are used to benefit gameplay and make it more enjoyable. Players like unrealistic things in their games when it makes them more fun to play, but otherwise they usually prefer things to be more realistic.

I really feel like the "realism" argument is kind of hairy, so let me expound on it. Magic (I don't remember if AoD has any sort of magic system) is obviously very unrealistic. So why is it okay for magic to exist in the world of AoD but not "universal ammo"? Here's a thought exercise: Imagine pulling an arrow out of a quiver and placing it in your crossbow and then firing. If you're anything like me (and there's a fair chance you aren't), the mental image just doesn't compute. Now think about throwing a fireball from your bare hands. My mind can easily create a pretense for a ball of fire coming out of my hands and says "cool!".

Maybe I'm just being a rambling jackass; I don't know. But I feel like every time I pick up an arrow and fire it from my crossbow in AoD, the "immersion" will be broken. Now, I don't want to get into a discussion about immersion in rpgs, but I think I have a valid point.

The End
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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The Ticktockman said:
if you're looking to minimize the number of different "ammo" types, please cut something else. I don't care what.
So, you're suggesting to cut meaningful options to give room to meaningless options? Wouldn't you rather have a full range of ammo options than know that the game has both arrows and bolts? Visually they'd look the same in game anyway. I doubt that anyone can say "what a minute! this projectile you've just fired from your crossbow is clearly an arrow! what's going on here?". The icons show the heads, so you can't look at the icons and say whether it's a bolt or an arrow:

 

thesheeep

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I think it has been said often enough that it doesn't really affect gameplay.
The thing is just that there have been arrows and bolts in every single RPG since... ever (at least all that I played and that had ammo).
This carved into everyones head that there are arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows.
Let me demonstrate:

arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. arrows for bows and bolts for crossbows. same for bows and crossbows. same for.... wait... what?!

This is all. It's your decision, but you should have known that it would irritate people.
It's like changing the WASD control scheme to ESDF, just not as "important".(Yeah, I know, it's not a perfect example, but who cares?)
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,024
Silellak said:
Combining arrows and bolts into a single ammo type has little-to-no effect on actual gameplay, while removing an entire type of ammo would have a much more significant effect, and the only trade-off for that loss of a gameplay element would be that "a few people would feel better."
Exactly. The mind boggles.



The Ticktockman said:
Like I said before, it's nowhere close to a deal-breaker, but it just feels like it could be handled in a more "realistic" way. Yes, things like HP and carrying weight are unrealistic, but those are examples of abstractions that are used to benefit gameplay and make it more enjoyable. Players like unrealistic things in their games when it makes them more fun to play...
It's fun to custom-tailor your ammo and carry different ammo for different "game", carefully choosing the right ammo for every shot. Knowing that bows and crossbows use different ammo isn't as much fun in my book.

Here's a thought exercise: Imagine pulling an arrow out of a quiver and placing it in your crossbow and then firing. If you're anything like me (and there's a fair chance you aren't), the mental image just doesn't compute. Now think about throwing a fireball from your bare hands. My mind can easily create a pretense for a ball of fire coming out of my hands and says "cool!".
That's where the abstract thing kicks in. You don't pull arrows out of a quiver. In fact, the game has no quiver slots. You equip a bow or a crossbow and draw the ammo directly from the inventory. The ammo icons look universal and won't affect your immersion. Right-clicking on the bow gives you access to all ammo options.
 

Fezzik

Cipher
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
515
It doesn't really bug me. It would probably be slightly better if there were both arrows and bolts, but whatever. I mean, hell, Avernum 5 didn't even have ammunition IIRC and I liked it just fine.
 

Silellak

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Aug 19, 2008
Messages
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Location
Tucson, AZ
thesheeep said:
The thing is just that there have been arrows and bolts in every single RPG since... ever (at least all that I played and that had ammo).

I could be wrong, but as far as I know, no other RPG has had 60 varities of ammunition for both crossbows and bows, either. From what I understand, ITS has put a lot more love into the ranged-weapon class than most developers bother to do, which is a big reason why this decision just doesn't bother me.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
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Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
Vault Dweller said:
The Ticktockman said:
if you're looking to minimize the number of different "ammo" types, please cut something else. I don't care what.
So, you're suggesting to cut meaningful options to give room to meaningless options? Wouldn't you rather have a full range of ammo options than know that the game has both arrows and bolts? Visually they'd look the same in game anyway. I doubt that anyone can say "what a minute! this projectile you've just fired from your crossbow is clearly an arrow! what's going on here?". The icons show the heads, so you can't look at the icons and say whether it's a bolt or an arrow:

So why exactly would Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V-ing the whole ammo list be bad?
 

Zeus

Cipher
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
1,523
What are we talking, here, the same ammo for bows and arrows as guns? Or just the same ammo for different types of guns? Or does this game even have guns?

I've kind of tried to avoid spoilers so I'm a little foggy on the setting's tech level.

Shadowrun for Genesis had universal bullets. It always seemed a little silly, but once you get rolling it's not something that remains a nagging complaint. More of a little quirk you get used to.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
@ Lumpy:

Too much clutter and unnecessary duplication. In my humble opinion, of course.

We started with separate arrows and bolts. Then when we started adding different metals and upgrades (originally, we planned to have more upgrades for bows/crossbows and less upgrades for the ammo), we ended up with a truckload of ammo types and eventually question "why do we need separate bolts and arrows again? was raised.

@ Zeus:

We're talking about the same ammunition type for both bows and crossbows. There are 3 basic types: regular, armor-piercing, jagged, and various upgrades (different metal, different quality, poison, flaming, hardened). Up to 60 different combination, but the same ammo for both bows and crossbows. 3 or 4 people think that it's a huge issue or something.
 

The Ticktockman

Scholar
Joined
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Messages
344
Location
Austin, TX
Vault Dweller said:
... 3 or 4 people think that it's a huge issue or something.

Try not to blow it out of proportion; nobody has a "huge issue" except for obediah. obediah's just being a cunt, but the rest of us are voicing a minor complaint and giving reasons for our complaint.

If you don't agree with those reasons, it's no skin off my nose. I'm still going to buy AoD and will probably get over the whole ammo issue pretty quickly.
 

mathboy

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
666
If combine them to get from 120 to 60 items to click past in the inventory, there's something seriously wrong with your user interface. 60 items are way too many if you don't want to annoy the user, while 60 more won't really make a difference.

So I don't really see any reason for combining them. All it does is affect gameplay (and realism and stuff which can be important, but if you don't want it, I understand) negatively (less scarcity of ammunition weighs heavier than decreasing amount of clicks while browsing inventory from 120 to 60).
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,024
The Ticktockman said:
Vault Dweller said:
... 3 or 4 people think that it's a huge issue or something.

Try not to blow it out of proportion...
I doubt that saying "3-4 people" is blowing it out of proportion.

... nobody has a "huge issue" except for obediah.
And OgreOgre, but he has a huge issue with anything that involves AoD.

If you don't agree with those reasons...
I see them as minor, which is how you described them as well (minor complaint). I understand your position and preference, but I still think it was the right decision.

mathboy said:
If combine them to get from 120 to 60 items to click past in the inventory, there's something seriously wrong with your user interface.
What is this conclusion based on?
 

Seymour

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
152
I guess most people see this for the largely cosmetic issue it is, but seeing as we all feel somewhat bothered by it (if I recall correctly you said it yourself that this wasn't the ideal solution, VD) I can't help but harping on the same chord here.

Would making quivers and, uh, bolt-quivers be that much of a programming pain on the ass? Like a container ammo instantly goes to when you loot corpses or chests, is automatically subtracted from when you reload your ranged weapon and can be accessed by right-clicking or somesuch in yours or a vendor's inventory? It seems to me such a change would make life easier for a ranger as it is, and allow for both types of ammo to be used without cluttering inventories up.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
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Seymour said:
...seeing as we all feel somewhat bothered by it ...
We all? It looks like "we all" is 3-4 people, especially if we count Ogre, who always feels somewhat bothered by something AoD related.

Would making quivers and, uh, bolt-quivers be that much of a programming pain on the ass? Like a container ammo...
We don't have any containers in the inventory. They were never planned. Adding them, the interface elements, the mechanics, etc would take some time. We don't mind tweaking things and adding what's necessary, but in this particular case it doesn't appear that we've made a horrible mistake by merging bolts and arrows into universal ammo and only several people are affected by this decision.
 

Double Ogre

Scholar
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Feb 4, 2009
Messages
765
Vault Dweller said:
And OgreOgre, but he has a huge issue with anything that involves AoD.
Vault Dweller said:
especially if we count Ogre, who always feels somewhat bothered by something AoD related.
Do you have sexual fantasies about me, Vinnie?

HA! Good fun!
 

Jasede

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This is really stupid, can't we just have seperate arrows & bolts please? Make it so their ammo updates have different gameplay advantages and disadvantages. You could maybe make an exploding bolt, but the arrow would be too light for such a thing. Or something.

Unified ammo - dumbing down. It sucks, breaks immersion and sucks. There's no real need for rational arguments here; do you know any great old-school RPG with unified arrows+bolts? I don't. Before we know it this game will turn into Deus Ex: Invisible War.
 
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We need standard bolts, JHP bolts, AP bolts, exploding bolts, dildo bolts, dragon dildo bolts (rare) and screwdriver bolts. That should add tons of immersion.

"Andhairus was hit by a Dragon Dildo Bolt in the face and leg oh god itz heavan."
 

mathboy

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
666
thesheeep said:
Jasede said:
There's no real need for rational arguments here;

And after four pages of thread, only few of those are apparent.
From either side.

And I feel the reduction of clicks from 120 to 60 to be less important than tradition/realism/gameplay.

Clicking past all the 120 or 60 arrow types, will probably be really annoying either way, and if they have a way to fix the annoyance for 60 arrow types, I don't see any real reason why it couldn't be extended easily.
 

Country_Gravy

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Wasteland 2
Stereotypical Villain said:
"Andhairus was hit by a Dragon Dildo Bolt in the face and leg oh god itz heavan."

This...definately this.
 

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