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AoD: What do you think of TEH GRAFIKS?

What do you think of the graphics?

  • I can't play a game that looks so awful (1/10)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The graphics are bad, but I've seen worse (3/10)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The graphics are ok (5/10)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I can't explain it but I actually like the graphics (7/10)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Jim Kata

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
2,602
Location
Nonsexual dungeon
Immortality's edit sucks because she made everything darker, not just the shadows.

The engine show support shadow mapping or have some way to do that. Since you have a fixed camera angle (I believe) there is no reason not to use them. viola! As the interweb cretins say. they are not that hard to do.
 

Jim Kata

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
2,602
Location
Nonsexual dungeon
Arcanum was also made by some of the best artists in gaming. that's as good as 2d is gonna get, in the places where it's really good.
 

Greatatlantic

Erudite
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
1,683
Location
The Heart of It All
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/5a.jpg

OK, if all the graphics looked like this pic I'd go 7, honest. Thinking back to the bygone days of elementary art (the last art I ever took... or was it secondary education art class...), visual art is all about manipulating space. You can't change the amount of space, but you can choose how to fill it. The above picture does an excellent job in filling and diversifying the space/screen. The oriental carpet does wonders to the floor. Also, having a big pile of stuff with smaller bits of stuff on it also works. The wood flooring is a much welcome break from the grey dirt in the other screenshots. The walls and their repetitive design is broken up by portals and other designs.

I think I made my point. Increasing texture resolution may help, as would adding shadows. But what I'd like to see focused on is just adding detail to what you have. For example, in the first screenshot, why don't you add some marks to the floor? Make a couple cracks in the wall, etc.
 

Stark

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
770
Immortality said:
Ok, as promised, to explain myself better here it is the illustration:

This is your screenshot: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/4a.jpg
And this is my edit: http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5434/4a1zv6.jpg

this is possibly the best constructive comment in this thread. i don't think Immortality just changed everything to darker. If you look closely, there are sources of lighting and shadow. take a close look at the shadow cast by the roof. it really brings out the whole 3D feel compared to the original. it also makes it alot more atmospheric, grittier and darker.

VD,
i will still buy the game, since to me the present graphics are already servicible, if abit flat. But VD if you're looking at improving the graphics furtherl, then i guess Immortality's edited graphic is what I am hoping for.
 

Slylandro

Scholar
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
705
Immortality's edit looks a bit too dark near the edges IMO but it's definitely in the right direction. Judging from AoD's description, I'm expecting a darker, grittier world than what I see in 4a.jpg.
 

John Yossarian

Magister
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,000
Location
Pianosa
I liked Immortality's take on it, but I think(from the Lighting thread) TGE doesn't let them have objects cast shadows on other objects, so the roof thing is most likely not gonna happen, as well as the arm casting shadows on the body. Still, the darker ground on Immortality's picture looks better IMO, so maybe the artists can play around with something like that.
 
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
5
I'll preface this by saying I have every intention of buying the game as soon as it comes out. Yes, those interviews are paying off. :D

The graphics are bad. Very bad. It's not just a matter of lighting or textures or anything like that. Good art direction can make primitive graphics workable, even better than things cooked up with expensive software. Not this, though. It's lifeless and completely without character, which is a shame because every other part of the game seems to be crawling with it. l

Don't fret too much about what tools you can afford. Good art always wins against good tools. I'd personally take Arcanum's style over NWN any day. And I'm not alone. World of WarCraft, whatever else you can say about it, beats EverQuest 2's more advanced engine with its quirky cartoon style by most accounts. The games industry is bigger than TES. Most of the top-selling PC games of all time don't have spectacular graphics, and didn't even when they came out. Bethesda wishes all the money they pour into rendering could produce sales like The Sims. I'm not into that, but it shows a note-worthy trend. Get a good concept that people enjoy and technical limitations aren't a big deal. You just need graphics that won't drive people away and maybe add to the game's character.
 

Deacdo

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 24, 2004
Messages
585
I said 3/10, but I'd probably give it higher in a review because the game is obviously not meant to be a mainstream title with a large budget.

It looks playable, though I'm more concerned about animation. If animations are few/poor, it will make the game look a lot worse. Not really sure why you went 3D, though. 2D seems to be the way to go for lower budget games, but then I don't really know the economics of it. That could just be in the East where artists are cheap ;)
 

Apar

Novice
Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
44
I should apologize for my post in the lighting thread, quoted in VD's OP. I shouldn't have been so flip, as you guys are obviously pouring a ton of energy and effort into AoD. I did not intend to disparage you guys. My point was, and is, that a) the graphics aren't great and b) who gives a shit? The ideas behind this game set my pulse a-racin'. I expect I will have an enormously good time playing it. It would be dishonest to say I wouldn't enjoy better graphics. But better graphics are not among the core reasons I want to play this game. They would be icing, and icing is nice. I prefer, however, cake.
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
I have done a little modeling myself and overall i think the graphics look more than good enough. There are some details that can be improved if you are realy so concerned about this.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/3a.jpg

The top of the walls show an artifcat in the way the texture was applied. Solution: either make the texture on top match the rest of the wall or just apply a pastel like texture like if a layer of dirt on top of the walls.

The colors are a bit misplaced. The lamp is blue when it should be metal gray. The yellow color does't really tell anything with the static illumination. Does your game decreases the light intensity at night? Then perhaps some lights would be a good idea. The colors of the soldiers cloths would look more realistic if less saturated (less vivid).

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/4a.jpg

Again the same bluish metal and vivid cloths. The deteriorated roof wood doesn't match the clean wood that builds the house. One is too deteriorated and the other is too clean. The wood itself is almost orange in some places. Some wood is like that but the color quickly vanishes with the age. Everything could use some dust layers in the right places of textures. Usualy dust acumulates more on top and on the bottom of walls and corners. Also don't be afraid to apply subtle artificial light reflexion effects to glass and metal textures if the game doesn't use any shaders for this.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/5a.jpg

Interiors should look more clean than exteriors so this looks ok. What shows is that texture uvs dont match in the corners. The firepit stone is much different from the wall stone, why?

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/6a.jpg

This is the best screen imo. With some HL2 style textures, with variations of dust on the wall bottons and corners and decals in the walls it would look better.

About the interface the only thing i have to say is that the paper background doesn't combine very well with the stone borders. I would prefer something more like the Fallout panel with the action points on top and less icons.

Anyway the only thing realy important to to fix is the mis-aligned UVs and the colors. The rest is just more eye candy and nothing else.
 

Veracity

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
155
They look functional at worst - the only thing that looks like it might matter to playability is that walls will potentially be able to obscure a fair bit.

Not sure it's worth commenting specifically, since I've nothing new to add, and I'm too clueless to know how hard improving it would be. Still, agree with most that the scenery looks too clean and too well-lit, which conspire to create a sense of unreality. Much more contrast, possibly by putting the main light source at a more oblique angle, might help - the barred gate at the bottom right of the 6a image, for instance, positively cries out to cast a spot of imposing shadow. Additional texture detail and a bit more random scenery probably wouldn't go amiss, but I suspect the near-saturation lighting is the bigger problem; tile-based environments (which I'm assuming this is) always end up with a degree of visible repetition, no matter how much incidental detail you hide it behind.

Is there a runtime option allowing the dynamic shadows cast by characters to be turned off? This is an irrational pet hate, but I usually shut that 'feature' off, since their behaviour is so often bizarre (example: the character at the top-right of 3a should be casting a shadow up the wall, but is probably casting one under it).

Even if some of this can be addressed, as opposed to being engine limitation, I have no idea whether it's worthwhile. It would likely improve the atmosphere noticeably, but I'm far from sure it'd have any real impact on potential sales.
 

galsiah

Erudite
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
1,613
Location
Montreal
If you can improve the shadows, it'd be nice, but I'm not too bothered either way. [ideally, of course, I'd like to see you re-write the engine to use a real-time global illumination solution :D]

I wasn't particularly expecting anything from the artwork, so what you have is fine. [I'm playing PtD at the moment, and I'm much more concerned that dialogue option X isn't present, than with the fact that half the world keeps flashing in and out of existence]

One thing I would say about PtD art is that it's pretty lifeless. There's very little variety / life in the game world. It doesn't particularly bother me that it isn't there, but it'd be nice if it were.

I think AoD could benefit from a bit more variety / lived-in-ness.

First, quite a bit more stuff would be nice (though I know it takes a long time).
For instance, here the three objects outside the building look pretty conspicuous, since they're the only ones, and are all pretty much axis-aligned (even the junk fits into a neat little square). Better shadows would help too, of course.

In general, the more clutter you have around the place, the less it's going to stand out. Clearly it needs to make sense - you don't want a load of large objects in the middle of a road without good reason. However, you might want slight dips / puddles / cracks / bits of paper (or equivalent) / weeds / stones...

This also looks a little too empty. Perhaps there shouldn't be large objects in such a room, but I'd expect to see more stuff lying around. For example, I don't see any drinks. In a room of guards training in full armour, that makes little sense.

Also, I'd agree that there's a bit too much square / rectangular stuff. For walls, that might be reasonable [I don't know, but I guess the Romans were keen on axis-alignment].

However, if you're doing that for the walls (reasonable), don't do it too often for other objects.

For instance here - does the NPC ever sit in the chair at the desk? If not, then why is it in that position? When you get up from a chair with arms at a desk, it's pretty unnatural to leave the chair in place. You'd almost certainly push it to an angle as you left - also making it simpler to sit back down.

If he needs to sit in it in-game, or if that particular guy is very fastideous, fair enough. Otherwise, I think a more lived-in look would help.

Just to be difficult :), in the pile of crates in the same picture, what's with the crate that's most vertical, but still at an angle? How is it not falling over (it looks like it'd need to be supported by the wall at that angle, which I guess isn't right)?

And why on earth would anyone put it down like that?? How often do you put a heavy crate down so that it rests precariously on an edge? You'd only do that if it were necessary due to lack of space. Who's going to balance it on an edge like that, when there's an easy bit of clear floor right next to it? [it's also a pretty much impossible position to fall into]

I'm being picky here - most of the object placment looks good to me (though more would be nice in the other screens). I just think that in these cases (unless the chair needs to be sat in), the placer of the objects hasn't considered how they're used / how they got there.
Most players might not explicitly notice these things, but they might perceive a general "oddness" about rooms where item placement doesn't quite make sense.


I don't think it's worth spending time to get the graphics impressive, but I do think it makes sense to do what you can to give them a natural feel.
This is still a significantly lower priority than double-checking quests / dialogues etc. though. I'll be much more put off by some quest not responding robustly to my doing things in the "wrong" order, than by graphical sparseness / oddness.
 

Pegultagol

Erudite
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
1,183
Location
General Gaming
Graphics are fine, and I think some of the lighting issues are difficult to solve in the light of the engine's origins, or am I wrong there? A simple shadow affixed to a character to provide some context of where the light source is good. The interior of the building should be darker in my opinion, with a few lighted areas to provide some minimal contrast. It's just my suggestion, the graphics are in fact very good as far as proportions in terms of anatomy and environment space. I do not fully know how the animation is shaping up, but if it is on the level of Dungeon Siege in terms of graphical department, I will be more than impressed.

Does this game have day to night cycle?
 

Immortality

Novice
Joined
Oct 3, 2006
Messages
11
Location
The Deep Seas.
Jim Kata said:
Immortality's edit sucks because she made everything darker, not just the shadows.

You should start reading the whole post instead of just clicking the links. :)

Anyway, i never intended to come across as the bestest graphics designer evar, in fact, even if i know how to use a bit of photoshop, as you can see, im not very good at it. :) I only did it to illustrate what i felt was needed (refer to my post), and im 100% sure other people can do it way better. :)
 

VenomByte

Scholar
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
271
I think the graphics look pretty good to be honest. But then, I have spent most of the last month playing Fallout, so I'm easily impressed :)

The graphics may not be up to Oblivion's standard, but they're more than enough to add to the experience of the game and the feel of the world, rather than just being passable.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
VenomByte said:
I think the graphics look pretty good to be honest. But then, I have spent most of the last month playing Fallout, so I'm easily impressed :)

What do you mean? Fallout features excellent 2D artwork. I'd rather look at artful 2D sprites with creativity behind them than generic low-poly 3D. I don't think they're in any way inferior at all, or somewho "worse" graphics. Merely alternative.

By the way, I'm not in any way talking about AoD's "low-poly 3D graphics", I'm talking in games in general. 2D is a sad thing to lose in games, but it's understandable how it can become more trouble than it's worth. And it also isn't very moddable, I guess.
 

VenomByte

Scholar
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
271
I guess that depends on your definition of 'excellent'. It has nothing to do with 2D vs 3D either - there are far better looking 2D games around than Fallout. They might look excellent, but fallout certainly doesn't by today's standards.

I'm not saying it has bad graphics, they're perfectly good. Just that they don't compare favourably to much being released these days - which is not particularly surprising, given their age.
 

spacemoose

Erudite
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
9,632
Location
california
I really like Immortality's edit, it never occured to me that shadows could make it look so much better.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Great thread. Too much to respond individually though. Keep opinions, suggestions, ideas, and votes coming, please. They do help a lot.

Edit: One of the problems in game development is that after staring for months and sometimes years at the same shit, you get used to it so much that you lose the ability to look at it critically and see the flaws. Looking at it through your eyes helps tremendously.
 

Excrément

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Messages
1,005
Location
Rockville
Vault Dweller said:
Great thread. Too much to respond individually though. Keep opinions, suggestions, ideas, and votes coming, please. They do help a lot.

Edit: One of the problems in game development is that after staring for months and sometimes years at the same shit, you get used to it so much that you lose the ability to look at it critically and see the flaws. Looking at it through your eyes helps tremendously.

be careful, your edit could be used by any developers to justify their false promises like MSFD....
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Well, I don't claim that the game is like totally awesome and surely one of the best role-playing games I've ever played, do I?
 

Bar Tec

Novice
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
49
Location
Polonia
These screenshots look OK, the color palette is nice - balanced, not too vivd, it fits the setting well, everything should be a little darker, though. Ground looks too sterile indeed, and the carpet in screenshot 5a.jpg looks strange too me - it does not fit the interior and floor, maybe try to add some animal furs lying on the wooden floors. Anyway, current graphics is perfectly acceptable.
 

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