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Are Adventure Games fundamentally archaic/outdated?

zwanzig_zwoelf

Graverobber Foundation
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Nov 21, 2015
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3,104
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デゼニランド
I usually treat adventures as streamlined interactive fiction (visuals instead of text description, controls instead of commands) and it works well unless the designer filled the game with retarded puzzles.
Modern adventure games from big companies feel like I'm watching some awful TV series while randomly pressing buttons on keyboard/gamepad/mouse to pretend it's a game when there's no game to begin with.
 

primalsplit

Literate
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Messages
18
I wouldn't say they are outdated necessarily. Back then, the other genres were more limited. With increasing technology we are able to make better action games, better open-world games, better fighting games. While it can be argued that the current games are not better than earlier ones as a whole, it is evident that technological improvements help them in some areas. Graphics yes, but also other things. But this can not really be said for adventure games. The interest probably shifted towards shinier things for now. I think adventure genre needs some more innovation. There was a game called Amnesia (2011) for example. I haven't played it, but it captures the meaning of what I am saying. It was rather popular back then.
 

Blackthorne

Infamous Quests
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Codex 2014 Divinity: Original Sin 2
I don't care that my audience is small compared to other games and genres. I like classic adventure games, so I make them. I'd love it if we sold more copies, only so I could make more. That's it. I don't want a yacht and a sex robot. I just wanna pay my bills and make games that I'd like to play. I think, with some elbow grease and patience, one can do that. I've been making adventure games for almost 15 years now. The pace has changed at times, but I've stayed constant and come hell or high water, we've finished our projects. We got a few more to do, and it may take two fucking decades, heh, but we'll see it through.


Bt
 

Blackthorne

Infamous Quests
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Codex 2014 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Me? Yes, I love hilarious and horrible deaths. Half the fun of making Quest for Infamy was planning all the crazy deaths for Mr. Roehm.

We didn't do deaths in Order of the Thorne, and I fucking hate that. In fact, I want to go back and make OotT with some deaths and shit we cut out in the name of trying to make it more 'modern'.

Bt
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,106
You're overthinking the issue.

Today's games audience is simply too impatient and/or dumb to play adventure games. That, and the Internet - it's too easy to look something up if you're stuck. 30 years ago, it wasn't so simple. Kids had no money for hint lines and hint books were expensive, so you had to rely on word of mouth from your mates who also played adventure games.

People don't talk about this very often, but at least in my experience playing adventure games in the 90s was very much a social experience. People would get together and just put their heads together for any given game - I did it a lot with all the old Sierra adventures and many of the earlier Lucasarts ones. It was a lot of fun because people would come up with different angles for shit. It's a mistake to think that everyone played these games in aspie fashion (i.e. using everything on everything until something works).

Being able to instantly look something up if you're stuck is, to my mind, a big reason why these games aren't as successful anymore. I've always defended an in-game hint system that's well thought out and progressive such as the one in Under a Killing Moon.

In any case, in the true heyday of adventure games, they were being written and made by some truly brilliant people and pushed a lot of technological barriers. This just doesn't happen anymore. While I don't think adventure games will ever truly die, they'll never come close to the level of mainstream appreciation they once enjoyed. And that's fine.

I don't buy it. Adventures games had much of the same thing happen to them that the RTS did, the biggest issue mainly being it was primarily a PC genre, and it basically died in that time from 2000 to when Steam got really big where PC gaming was mostly dead. Like the RTS it wasn't helped by the big titles in the genre being done by two studios, and when they quite it was basically over.

Funny thing is they probably could have survived and thrived if they'd just of changed thing up a tiny bit. Horror games like Resident Evil and Silent Hill have their roots in adventure games, (Sweet Home is basically Maniac Mansion with a RPG combat system on top of it, and Clock Tower just was a point-and-click adventure game on the SNES) LucasArt & Sierra probably could have done well from themselves doing some console adventure game with tank controls and some combat encounters thrown in while you're running around doing puzzles. Post-GTA3 Sierra could have done a Police Quest game where you're doing all the exact same kind of shit you did before SWAT 2 and it'd probably have done well.
 

bddevil

Educated
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
71
but the simple fact is that even most of the older gamers who played and loved all of the classics, don't even bother to touch this genre anymore.
Passing nonsensical opinion-based cherry-picked bullshit as a 'fact' makes any semblance of point you've had null and void.

I play pretty much every new adventure game that comes out, but too many are disappointing because they are simply inferior.
The 'new adventures' suck because they are catered to retards who came to expect instant gratification and can't be bothered to be 'stuck' in a game for more than 5 minutes.

The new 'retro' adventures mostly suck because like you, a lot of them don't understand what made those adventures good in the first place. Wadget Eye is one of the few companies that does get it, although this board is a little bit too fond of Primordia as opposed to Resonance or Technobabylon, which puzzle-wise are far better. Even then, they also publish a lot of 'meh' games (nothing personal to devs who post on here).
 

bddevil

Educated
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
71
You're overthinking the issue.

Today's games audience is simply too impatient and/or dumb to play adventure games. That, and the Internet - it's too easy to look something up if you're stuck. 30 years ago, it wasn't so simple. Kids had no money for hint lines and hint books were expensive, so you had to rely on word of mouth from your mates who also played adventure games.

People don't talk about this very often, but at least in my experience playing adventure games in the 90s was very much a social experience. People would get together and just put their heads together for any given game - I did it a lot with all the old Sierra adventures and many of the earlier Lucasarts ones. It was a lot of fun because people would come up with different angles for shit. It's a mistake to think that everyone played these games in aspie fashion (i.e. using everything on everything until something works).

Being able to instantly look something up if you're stuck is, to my mind, a big reason why these games aren't as successful anymore. I've always defended an in-game hint system that's well thought out and progressive such as the one in Under a Killing Moon.

In any case, in the true heyday of adventure games, they were being written and made by some truly brilliant people and pushed a lot of technological barriers. This just doesn't happen anymore. While I don't think adventure games will ever truly die, they'll never come close to the level of mainstream appreciation they once enjoyed. And that's fine.
this is far closer to the truth.

its not the adventure games that died, its that modern day audience for games is completely different

1. modern gamers have the attention span of a toddler. they cant be bothered to be stuck for minutes, let alone hours. they will just play a different game on steam. or look in walkthrough and start following the walkthrough. therefore, devs need to massage their clits constantly, telling how great they are with every click they were SUPPOSED TO do.

2. stemming from #1, modern audience pretends to 'value their time' when it's simply an excuse to not confront and solve problems. they don't like to engage in problem solving or logical thinking, unless it's a game explicitly marketed on difficulty or some puzzles (ie, dark souls or portal). adventure games were revered by a lot of programmers because solving a puzzle youre stuck on relates very well to finally finding an issue you've been debugging for a week trying to resolve. because its so easy to get hints now, people would rather look/watch hints, than actually think for themselves. its an equivalent of looking up an answer to your super hard physics problem online without solving it yourself. it's cheating yourself, really and just says that you don't want to actually solve problems.

3. modern gamers like to cherry-pick what they want to do in a game and not do other stuff they dont like in a game. hence why sandboxes are popular. can't really do that in adventure games, and often the dichotomy of puzzle preventing people who play for the story to progress can cause an issue here, ie 'we are forced to do what we don't like to progress to see what happens next'. and they don''t like puzzle solving because of #2

4. there is no instant gratification in classic adventure games by definition. there is no levelup, there is no rise in power, the reward you get for finally solving a pesky puzzle is some (or in many cases, minimal) story progression. again, this ties with point #3.


Ron Gilbert said it well in his blog posts on Thimbleweed Park:

We're not building a modern adventure game with all the rough edges sanded away and a safety net, ready to catch even the smallest misstep or endless rewarding of the player for the completion of mundane tasks. I know a lot of modern players want to constantly be told how great they are and how amazing they're doing. This is not one of those games. Success is rewarded with the greatest reward of all: New art. Hints are given through well crafted dialog and feel like a natural part of the story. Players are introduced to the game by a slow escalation of puzzle difficulty and a well focused story.

you can pretend all you want this modern gamer mentality isn't the issue here, but it is. an attitude of 'how can I get a game to blow me for these 30 minutes I have while I choke on popcorn' is largely incompatible with puzzle-based adventure games. they have to be telltale interactive movies for these modern gamers play 'just for the story'
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
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4,106
Weren't people already getting over Telltale's visual novels when they started realizing the whole idea behind the games, which is your choices mattered, wasn't actually a thing the games did? Even people that were in love with that first Walking Dead game for some bizarre reason were already starting to complain about them when Game of Thrones came out, and that was in 2014. Three years later it doesn't much feel like anyone gives much of a shit about Telltale anymore.

Given how much I was hearing about The Witness when it came out, and how little I've heard about Telltale, I'm going to say gamers having a problem with puzzles is bullshit.
 

bddevil

Educated
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
71
Weren't people already getting over Telltale's visual novels when they started realizing the whole idea behind the games, which is your choices mattered, wasn't actually a thing the games did? Even people that were in love with that first Walking Dead game for some bizarre reason were already starting to complain about them when Game of Thrones came out, and that was in 2014. Three years later it doesn't much feel like anyone gives much of a shit about Telltale anymore.

Given how much I was hearing about The Witness when it came out, and how little I've heard about Telltale, I'm going to say gamers having a problem with puzzles is bullshit.
I think at some point people realized the illusion of choice was just that- illusion. And if choice is illusion, then it's meaningless. And if it's meaningless, this means all gameplay is meaningless and it's just a visual novel.

And telltale liked to copy/paste their shit too much. Something like Life is Strange is a much better made 'nu adventure', even though the writing is cringe-city.

Still, I blame the audience more than Telltale for their conveyor belt games. Their Monkey Island games were somewhat decent, and their Sam&Max was passable. If they sold well, they wouldn't make TWD clones.

And honestly, replacing puzzles with illusion of choice 'gameplay' was almost genius because it captured the new audience so well. Pressing a choice doesnt require any intricate thinking. If you don't care - you just click whatever choice to progress, don't even have to remember it (the game will remember that ! :troll:). If you are engaged, you agonize over a choice that isn't really a choice (but you won't know that until the end).

There were always RPGs with good/great C&C, but their gameplay didnt revolve around C&C. There were even adventures that experimented with choices (most notoriously Blade Runner, The Last Express) and pressure of real-time situations. But they didn't have choice-choosing as core gameplay....
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
The problem with "interactive stories" is that there is little reason to buy them when you can just watch them on the Youtube, saving yourself the bother of buying or torrenting at all. Apparently, though, the Japanese have figured this one out: Don't make your game something that you can post on Youtube.

you can pretend all you want this modern gamer mentality isn't the issue here, but it is. an attitude of 'how can I get a game to blow me for these 30 minutes I have while I choke on popcorn' is largely incompatible with puzzle-based adventure games. they have to be telltale interactive movies for these modern gamers play 'just for the story'
I'm pretty sure the Japanese have this one figured out, too, and there's probably more blowing involved, also.
 

Jugashvili

管官的官
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Aug 20, 2013
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Georgia, Asia
Codex 2013
There certainly is an issue with replay value. I loved SMI, MI2 and IJ:FOA to bits and I still deem them to be masterpieces of storytelling, but even coming back to them at rather long-ish intervals (10 years or so) it's always saddening how precious little gameplay there is to pick from the bones of these games after you figured them out once or twice (even IJ:FOA, which had three different paths).

Too bad the game itself was "meh" at best.
QFT. Too much breaking the 4th wall, pop culture references and trying too hard, as in "LOOK AT ME I'M SUPER RETRO, PLEASE FEEL NOSTALGIC" for an audience that is probably too young to have played Maniac Mansion back in the day (cue manbuns, horn-rimmed glasses and stupid beards) while introducing a gimmicky 5-character mechanic that relied on them being run by a player hivemind (muh existentialist cop-out).
 

HeatEXTEND

Prophet
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Feb 12, 2017
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Nedderlent
QFT. Too much breaking the 4th wall, pop culture references and trying too hard, as in "LOOK AT ME I'M SUPER RETRO, PLEASE FEEL NOSTALGIC" for an audience that is probably too young to have played Maniac Mansion back in the day (cue manbuns, horn-rimmed glasses and stupid beards) while introducing a gimmicky 5-character mechanic that relied on them being run by a player hivemind (muh existentialist cop-out).
Agreed, too self-referential and a very steep decline after 1/3? of the game. Started out very promising but it didn't "bloom" at all imo. And the final stretch was just pure shit. Don't know if it was, but it felt rushed.
 

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