Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Are Chimpanzees people?

Discussion in 'SCIENCE!!' started by Vaarna_Aarne, Feb 24, 2012.

  1. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    I thought it'd be fun to ask what other people think of this decades old debate: Should we re-classify Chimpanzees (Pan Troglodytes and Pan Paniscus) as part of the genus Homo in light of the ever-increasing number of biological and sociological similarities discovered between us, or kept as the separate genus Pan?

    Personally, I'm one of those people who believe we should re-classify chimpanzees as a species of human. There's several important reasons why I think this is the correct classification:

    1) Genetic similarity. Chimpanzees and Homo Sapiens have astonishing genetic similarity, with ~95-98.5% being identical, and the similarity being even more pronounced when it comes to high importance genes.

    2) Macro-biological similarity. Chimpanzees give birth in the same manner as humans do, skeletal structure between chimpanzees and humans are closer than between any other ape, almost all diseases are transmittable between humans and chimpanzees, even our brain functions are highly similar!

    3) Sociological similarity. Much of chimpanzee behaviour operates parallel to human behaviour, even though there are differences such as mating behaviour and charging displays (scratch that, I just remembered the Dicksmoker thread). But even then, the differences are not immense, and we must remember that chimpanzees, like humans, are capable of warfare between groups, true altruism and even friendship.

    4) Motherfucking tools in a motherfucking termite mound. Though other primates are known to use tools, thus not making either us or chimpanzees unique in this regard. But the chimpanzee ability to manufacture tools, learning tool-use, inventive creation of new tools and adaptation to their environment are the final nail on the coffin of chimpanzees as a separate genus from us.
    Jim Cojones Brofists this.
  2. Random Arcane Patron

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    But Vaarna, we are the only Naked Ape.
  3. Art Vandelay Learned

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    Hardly,but you can argue that some people are chimpanzee tho...
    herostratus Brofists this.
  4. TheEntitledOne Prophet

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    No matter how many chimps you fuck you wont have hibrid children, therefore different species. END OF RINE
  5. Captain Shrek Orbis non-sufficit Dumbfuck

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    People is not a clear term. Are insane men people? Are retards people? What if the IQ of either group is equal that of a rat? Are they rats?

    People/Humanity is a functional term. i.e. a term for convenience. There is no Precise definition of people. Can there be one in the future? yes. But let me guarantee that it will be quantitative enough to disappoint you.
  6. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    Actually, we are Sex Apes.

    Actually, hasn't been put to test (discounting the rather embarrassing pseudo-science debacle in the Soviet Union). Personally I would find such a test very fascinating.

    Quiet you, this is about taxonomic definition, not an abstract philosophical definition.
  7. Captain Shrek Orbis non-sufficit Dumbfuck

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  8. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    We already have a taxonomic classification for a human, your post is irrelevant to the topic.
  9. Captain Shrek Orbis non-sufficit Dumbfuck

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    In that case the entire thread is irrelevant because we have a taxonomic classification for a Chimpanzee too.
  10. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    The issue is that the taxonomic classification of genus Homo and ever-increasing new discoveries on Chimpanzees call for a re-classification of either Chimpanzees or the genus Homo.
  11. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Well, both species elicit the same misanthropic response from me, so maybe yes.

    Tool use and inventive behaviour is much more widespread than we've thought, it's not even limited to mammals (corvids anyone?), so it doesn't really matter for genus classification. Hardly anything matters but genetics, and even then arguing over exact definition of arbitrary terms is usually a futile endavour, and partitioning continuous tree of life is definitely arbitrary. Changing our understanding of this tree's layout is not.

    Even species is actually quite an arbitrary term - take ring species for example.

    Words, labels and ideas can help in understanding the world, but they are not the world itself.

    You seem unable to understand the difference between genus and species.
    :hmmm:
  12. Captain Shrek Orbis non-sufficit Dumbfuck

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    What new discoveries are you talking about? Give me some examples.
  13. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    Well DraQ, that's why I pointed out that tool use and making is not unique to chimpanzees and humans, but that it's a shared significant trait that's a final nail on the taxonomic coffin. And I do point out that structural elements on a macro-biological scale also matter like genetics do (genetics is actually the single most important part for the argument on chimpanzee reclassification). As for the significance of reclassification, I'd echo Jane Goodall and say that the important part is that it'd force mankind at large to reconsider their relationship with nature and hopefully improve.

    Chimpanzee genetic profile is ~95-98.5% identical with that of humans, among important defining genes the similarity jumps to over 99%.

    Chimpanzee birthgiving is the same as that of humans, and only humans and chimpanzees give birth in this fashion.
  14. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Well, yeah, that would be neat.

    Kicking humans off their pedestal never gets old.
  15. Captain Shrek Orbis non-sufficit Dumbfuck

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    Do you know how Taxonomy works Vaarna?
  16. PorkaMorka Arcane

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    Technically Chimpanzees are evil humanoids, along the lines of Hobgoblins, Bugbears and Kobolds.

    Although to be fair, Chimpanzees are definitely worse than Kobolds. Sure, both Chimpanzees and Kobolds steal human children, but Kobolds only steal unattended children, while Chimpanzees will rip them right out of the mother's arms.

    And Kobolds only occasionally eat human children, while Chimps steal children specifically to devour them.
  17. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    They also have an insane Strength Bonus, like +6 or something.
  18. TheEntitledOne Prophet

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    I think the superstrength of apes is greatly exagerated, I read something about that not long ago.
    And about the interbreding with chimps, well, we have a different amount of cromosomes, so even if a hibrid could be created, fertile hibrids would be rare, if not imposible.
    And even if we have enough similarities to be able to breed artificially, it doesn't mean much if that can't happen naturaly. Seriously if it was possible there would be some historic cases.
  19. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    Unlikely, until the 60's chimpanzees had a natural fear and aggression towards humans. It's why almost all chimpanzee documentaries are filmed at Gombe Valley (which is also why it seems to a layman that all chimpanzees look alike, since it's actually the same community and same individuals that are being filmed over and over again), since the chimpanzees there have accepted humans over the years. Prior to that, almost historical cases of humans encountering chimpanzees amount to an African getting a major "OH SHI-" situation.

    As for ape "superstrength", it's absolutely nothing to scoff at, and they are definately multiple times stronger than a large human male. We have documented instances of chimpanzee males snapping cables and tearing a baboon in half (a single chimpanzee, not a group). Though the actual multiplier will probably be under debate forever, the core conclusion is the same: Don't let an aggressive chimpanzee attack you, you'll get your ass flattened and your honor taken. In fact, keeping chimpanzees as home pets is downright insane if you're not a highly skilled primatelogist (because you must have a large amount of experience in handling chimps, and you must be familiar with submissive gestures and actions in case aggression appears), and even then it's dangerous (Jane Goodall said that she and her husband were extremely fortunate that they never got physically attacked, even though close calls were numerous), especially with a male who might assert dominance.
  20. TheEntitledOne Prophet

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    For what I heard, the dude who said that chimps and other great apes are X times stronger than humans, did some crappy study, and real data would be far less incredible. Still, chimps have enough strength (concentrated in their arms) to tore a human's face... But that doesn't require that much strength.
    And about the part with being the same species, well, iirk from my biology classes, there are other definitons of species. Like their ecology etc. Even if in lab conditions humans and chimps or other apes could have fertile hibrids (wich I find unlikely), if is not something that could happen in nature I wouldn't say they are the same species.
    Their behavior is also quite different from humans (warfare between groups, true altruism and even friendship... is something documented in non primates too). And we have some important macrobiological differences, like all the adaptations for bipedia (our lower ribs are way underdeveloped for example), far bigger brains... And even if chimps can use tools, they are far less eficient than us, and many animals can use tools too.

    Well, I haven't done any research about this, those were just things that I remembered from the uni, so many of the points I made might be incorrect...
    But let me tell you this. Even if the similarities between our species are cuantitatively enough, some features that make us different (even if they are few) can warrant that humans and chimps aren't the same species (most importantly not being able to breed).
    Well, I hope that you can comprenhend my engrish.

    Also taxonomy sucks. Stuff like defining a species etc. can be quite annoying, so I will settle this with if they cant produce fertile offspring naturally they aren't the same species.
  21. jcd Arcane Patron Zionist Agent

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    The genetic profile of a carrot is ~90% identical with that of humans. Are carrots people?
  22. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Even this can be ambiguous - see so called "ring species".

    Anyway, taxonomy may suck, but phylogenetics is pretty fucking :obviously: .


    :what:
    jcd is a carrot!
  23. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    Though I must point out again, that this wasn't about humans and chimpanzees being the same species, but part of the same genus. Important difference. Obviously Chimpanzees aren't Homo Sapiens, but I'd believe a more accurate classification for them is Homo Troglodytes than the classical Pan Troglodytes (or Homo Paniscus/Pan Paniscus, in case of bonobos).
  24. TheEntitledOne Prophet

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    Or maybe a potato?




    Well, I partially agree on that. Taxonomy is too much of a mess for me to discuss that. Cuantitatively we are close enough to be considered the same genus, but the differences are quite important to. And ultimately, since we are comparing them with us I don't think humans make the best observers in this matter, I don't think we can be objective enough in this case.
  25. Random Arcane Patron

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    You are now realizing that elves, orcs, etc. are all just humans who have speciated enough to become actual different species.

    However, mankind has not been separated from itself long enough to produce any kind of meaningful speciation over the years. This, combined with the fact that the technology level of nearly all fantasy settings are extremely primitive, implies that all fantasy is actually set in the distant future in a post-apocalyptic world.

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