duanth000
Novice
I made a review of Avadon. Enjoy (or not). First post!
http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ub ... 425&page=1
http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ub ... 425&page=1
-
Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.
"This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
Avadon Review
- Thread starter duanth000
- Start date
duanth000
Novice
A mid game review of Avadon (At the return to Dhorl Stead Mission)
*MILD SPOILERS*
CONS
- no individual party member movement outside of the combat engine, makes pre-battle positioning a little clunky.
- As mentioned, preset entrance points to each map, making some quest locations (and their respective turn ins) slightly tedious to reach.. See the mage tower in the Kva Lands, Runner Faiga's place in the Dhorl Stead (Although this may be understandable given the number of exit points, which do provide a convenience, on each map
- No leadership skill!!! Probably the most personal disappointment, given how well executed this game mechanic was in the Geneforge series (most notably, in my eyes, in G4 and G5). Whether in a grand way (modifying reputation among factions, adding allies in certain battles) or small (additional quest rewards, calming creations to avoid smaller encounters), the leadership skill provided diversification of the gameplay experience and a viable diplomatic path. In Avadon, there have been moments where I felt that a more charismatic character could and should have talked his/her way out of an encounter (see sorceress fight in the Jherl Deeps), but instead any decision to bribe/be paid off in lieu of combat are static. Also I feel the leadership skill could have been used to great effect as applied to companion relationships. It's hard in some ways to become emotionally invested in companions when I am practically guaranteed their eventual loyalty so long as I pick preset and fairly obvious dialogue responses (and perform their loyalty quests). This being regardless of the possible charisma of my main character. Sorry, rant.
- Little main character customization. As far as I can tell, there are only two differences that one's choice of main character makes. One, that only a sorceress or shadowwalker can pick certain locks in Avadon for low cost in terms of lockpicks (See chest near anvil in basement workshop). And two, that the choice of main character can be used to set party member preferences. Don't like the blademaster companion's dialogue? Choose a blademaster (assuming most people will play the game needing a tank). For the main character customization to boil down to this is understandable if one looks at Avadon as a merger of Geneforge (dialogue is mostly directed toward the main character as an individual) and Avernum (no individual party member focus) gameplay mechanics. But, for in terms of roleplaying that extends beyond NPC conversations (which are unaffected by skill) and perhaps for my ego as a player, I would have preferred something more.
- No general lockpicking skill. Mentioned above... Maybe a rare scarab(s) could grant cross-class skills such as this (lockpicking currently confined to sorceress/shadowwalker)
- Moar (sic) scarabs! A verrry minor observation...but given that they provided the most cross-class character tailoring, I would have liked more. Not overpowered, DLC, stroke/hold the ego type, just more scarabs for certain practical uses.
- Blackbeard, not Redbeard (completely subjective)
- Overabundance of wands. I found myself lugging around, on torment difficulty, a number of wands (fire, ice, venom) that, a few missions in, were rather ineffectual (either missed or did very little damage). It was probably meant for me to use the wands at earlier levels..but I feel a better mechanic would have been to make wands both more scarce and more powerful. Again, more personal than anything, and a product of a first time playthrough (not knowing what items would come in handy on torment). In fact, I probably should have sold them.
- Dragons. Why did it have to be dragons? This is, again, a minor point but after the amazingly original Geneforge universe I felt less so the inclusion of and more so a certain focus on dragons was a step backward in terms of storytelling. Enough games of far more dubious quality (DA, DA2, Divinity 2) focus on this massive fantasy trope.
- Updating Avadon quartermaster inventory. The quartermaster of Avadon, the seat of Pact power, has a more limited inventory than Goldcrag? Unrealistic, he should have an updated inventory as missions progress (see more scarabs)
NEUTRAL
- Automap/quest compass...Actually not a con, since it only seems to exist early on in tutorial format (in Avadon, for understandable reasons, since people live there and know the layout, and in the tutorial dungeon, again, for obvious reasons). So a neutral choice, if not a positive for new gamers.
- Combat... The only negative I can muster so far is that certain skills seemed overpowered (Shaman spirit claw), for wrong or right reason. This is an area where I feel more discussion, and perhaps tweaking, is to be had. I simply don't know and so, again, this is a neutral statement. However, there is a certain sort of auto heal mechanic exploit whereby a single character can escape (most) combat encounters, auto heal/rez the group, and then wait out skill cooldowns. Effecting, in most cases (there are some encounters that bar a return to Avadon and full vitality restoration, irrespective of vitality potions availability), the spamming of potentially overpowered skills. So, again, a neutral absent more player discussion.
- Difficulty. Probably the most contentious aspect of the indie RPG (I'm looking at you, RPGCodex). I've been playing on Torment, aka the highest level of difficulty in Vogel games and the difficulty I assume most people who care about difficulty will be playing at. So far, it pans out like this:
-- Tutorial (Avadon dungeons, first mission) is easy. Perhaps too easy. You will probably not use a health potion until the final battle of the first mission, although you might use wands/blessing crystals (short term buffs)/a speed potion? (haste, the question mark is for perhaps). But don't despair!!
--Later missions/quests become progressively more difficult, both inside and outside Avadon. For each mission, there is at least one quest that is quite difficult for one's level (See book steal quest, widow of bones, sorceress shade?! being perhaps the most difficult thus far).
Given that the game is linear and one must finish a mission to unlock new maps, it seems that the main quests have been made somewhat less difficult than those in Avernum 6 and G5 (the most balanced and thus most/more difficult). A byproduct, perhaps a preexisting one in Vogel games, of the linearity is that the player can skip difficult missions and return later to tackle them at higher level. So, while the main quests are less difficult than before, the side quest difficulty is entirely a product of choice, a sliding scale of difficulty depending on one's, let's say, guts.
The good news? Less hp whittling. What makes the difficulty in most cases is the encounter design (very good, as usual) and the use of status ailments (stunning, dazing, ensnaring which prevents key movement, acid/poison, charming, etc...). Although, It is arguable whether acid/poison status ailments should, even given the best character build, only last 1-2 turns *it shouldn't ever*.
PROS
Writing/Companions: A Vogel game (brand loyalty) seems to always guarantee quality writing and Avadon is no exception. Whether it is the several paragraphs of writing used to describe various new maps that the player enters or the way in which Jeff substantiates both important AND unimportant, stock NPCs (See New Vegas NCR soldier dialogue, a few sentences compared to at least a paragraph for many stock NPCs). And this is not a case of quantity over quantity. There is little to no cheeky, gamebreaking bad dialogue (I WANT TO BE A DRAGON), characters are real, often despicable in very understandable ways (as compared to EVIL), and at least one of your characters is genuinely interesting (having focused on her dialogue mostly). Nathalie is great. A power hungry 17 year old sorceress who you first meet relishing in the fact that she just blasted a few Avadon prisoners into nothingness. A character who starts shaking with excitement (as described in game) when faced with a tough adversary. Very well done.
Encounter Design: Ahh....Jeff Vogel has always had a certain knack for encounter design. Sure, there are trash mobs, but in Avadon you rarely feel bothered mowing through them. This is not only due to the auto heal mechanic (which is contentious and arguably unneeded were healing more thoroughly integrated into the shaman class) but more importantly due to great boss encounters. For example, the sorceress shade, who teleports, at random, your party members to different parts of a dungeon during the fight. Or an escape from a flooding cavern while fighting off bands of ogres (The flooding will kill you, not an illusion of danger). There are certain recycled elements from past Vogel games (boss that spits out monsters when hit), but it works and it works amazingly well.
Story: Looking for faction based gameplay, as in Bloodlines, Geneforge 2, etc? Well, you may not find exactly what you're looking for. HOWEVER, the storyline/in game universe is serviceable, if not well-done. This may seem like damning with faint praise, but in an age where RPGs are a mutating, if not dying breed, it is quite the compliment. As a player, I was interested in the world, more so the characters, and I had the understanding that this was the first game in the Avadon series and as such it would taking some amount of acclimation. Point being, there is an argument that new game worlds, or one-off gameworlds (Planescape, Geneforge) should be introduced at first in a limited way, through a personal tale, rather than through making assumptions about the player's commitment to a previously unknown lore. Case in point: G1 and Sucia island. Players were not traipsing across Terrestria and their character was very much alone, no servant or cog in a mass political/military structure. Or Planescape. You were not immediately a member of a faction or, *cough*, a Warden by necessity. You were tabula rasa (relatively speaking) from the start and as such you could accept aspects of the game world in time, not all at once as if it were natural or expected.
This was a rambling post and I firmly believe game reviews are made in the aggregate, so c'mon and share. Also, I want to thank Jeff Vogel for making great games.
*MILD SPOILERS*
CONS
- no individual party member movement outside of the combat engine, makes pre-battle positioning a little clunky.
- As mentioned, preset entrance points to each map, making some quest locations (and their respective turn ins) slightly tedious to reach.. See the mage tower in the Kva Lands, Runner Faiga's place in the Dhorl Stead (Although this may be understandable given the number of exit points, which do provide a convenience, on each map
- No leadership skill!!! Probably the most personal disappointment, given how well executed this game mechanic was in the Geneforge series (most notably, in my eyes, in G4 and G5). Whether in a grand way (modifying reputation among factions, adding allies in certain battles) or small (additional quest rewards, calming creations to avoid smaller encounters), the leadership skill provided diversification of the gameplay experience and a viable diplomatic path. In Avadon, there have been moments where I felt that a more charismatic character could and should have talked his/her way out of an encounter (see sorceress fight in the Jherl Deeps), but instead any decision to bribe/be paid off in lieu of combat are static. Also I feel the leadership skill could have been used to great effect as applied to companion relationships. It's hard in some ways to become emotionally invested in companions when I am practically guaranteed their eventual loyalty so long as I pick preset and fairly obvious dialogue responses (and perform their loyalty quests). This being regardless of the possible charisma of my main character. Sorry, rant.
- Little main character customization. As far as I can tell, there are only two differences that one's choice of main character makes. One, that only a sorceress or shadowwalker can pick certain locks in Avadon for low cost in terms of lockpicks (See chest near anvil in basement workshop). And two, that the choice of main character can be used to set party member preferences. Don't like the blademaster companion's dialogue? Choose a blademaster (assuming most people will play the game needing a tank). For the main character customization to boil down to this is understandable if one looks at Avadon as a merger of Geneforge (dialogue is mostly directed toward the main character as an individual) and Avernum (no individual party member focus) gameplay mechanics. But, for in terms of roleplaying that extends beyond NPC conversations (which are unaffected by skill) and perhaps for my ego as a player, I would have preferred something more.
- No general lockpicking skill. Mentioned above... Maybe a rare scarab(s) could grant cross-class skills such as this (lockpicking currently confined to sorceress/shadowwalker)
- Moar (sic) scarabs! A verrry minor observation...but given that they provided the most cross-class character tailoring, I would have liked more. Not overpowered, DLC, stroke/hold the ego type, just more scarabs for certain practical uses.
- Blackbeard, not Redbeard (completely subjective)
- Overabundance of wands. I found myself lugging around, on torment difficulty, a number of wands (fire, ice, venom) that, a few missions in, were rather ineffectual (either missed or did very little damage). It was probably meant for me to use the wands at earlier levels..but I feel a better mechanic would have been to make wands both more scarce and more powerful. Again, more personal than anything, and a product of a first time playthrough (not knowing what items would come in handy on torment). In fact, I probably should have sold them.
- Dragons. Why did it have to be dragons? This is, again, a minor point but after the amazingly original Geneforge universe I felt less so the inclusion of and more so a certain focus on dragons was a step backward in terms of storytelling. Enough games of far more dubious quality (DA, DA2, Divinity 2) focus on this massive fantasy trope.
- Updating Avadon quartermaster inventory. The quartermaster of Avadon, the seat of Pact power, has a more limited inventory than Goldcrag? Unrealistic, he should have an updated inventory as missions progress (see more scarabs)
NEUTRAL
- Automap/quest compass...Actually not a con, since it only seems to exist early on in tutorial format (in Avadon, for understandable reasons, since people live there and know the layout, and in the tutorial dungeon, again, for obvious reasons). So a neutral choice, if not a positive for new gamers.
- Combat... The only negative I can muster so far is that certain skills seemed overpowered (Shaman spirit claw), for wrong or right reason. This is an area where I feel more discussion, and perhaps tweaking, is to be had. I simply don't know and so, again, this is a neutral statement. However, there is a certain sort of auto heal mechanic exploit whereby a single character can escape (most) combat encounters, auto heal/rez the group, and then wait out skill cooldowns. Effecting, in most cases (there are some encounters that bar a return to Avadon and full vitality restoration, irrespective of vitality potions availability), the spamming of potentially overpowered skills. So, again, a neutral absent more player discussion.
- Difficulty. Probably the most contentious aspect of the indie RPG (I'm looking at you, RPGCodex). I've been playing on Torment, aka the highest level of difficulty in Vogel games and the difficulty I assume most people who care about difficulty will be playing at. So far, it pans out like this:
-- Tutorial (Avadon dungeons, first mission) is easy. Perhaps too easy. You will probably not use a health potion until the final battle of the first mission, although you might use wands/blessing crystals (short term buffs)/a speed potion? (haste, the question mark is for perhaps). But don't despair!!
--Later missions/quests become progressively more difficult, both inside and outside Avadon. For each mission, there is at least one quest that is quite difficult for one's level (See book steal quest, widow of bones, sorceress shade?! being perhaps the most difficult thus far).
Given that the game is linear and one must finish a mission to unlock new maps, it seems that the main quests have been made somewhat less difficult than those in Avernum 6 and G5 (the most balanced and thus most/more difficult). A byproduct, perhaps a preexisting one in Vogel games, of the linearity is that the player can skip difficult missions and return later to tackle them at higher level. So, while the main quests are less difficult than before, the side quest difficulty is entirely a product of choice, a sliding scale of difficulty depending on one's, let's say, guts.
The good news? Less hp whittling. What makes the difficulty in most cases is the encounter design (very good, as usual) and the use of status ailments (stunning, dazing, ensnaring which prevents key movement, acid/poison, charming, etc...). Although, It is arguable whether acid/poison status ailments should, even given the best character build, only last 1-2 turns *it shouldn't ever*.
PROS
Writing/Companions: A Vogel game (brand loyalty) seems to always guarantee quality writing and Avadon is no exception. Whether it is the several paragraphs of writing used to describe various new maps that the player enters or the way in which Jeff substantiates both important AND unimportant, stock NPCs (See New Vegas NCR soldier dialogue, a few sentences compared to at least a paragraph for many stock NPCs). And this is not a case of quantity over quantity. There is little to no cheeky, gamebreaking bad dialogue (I WANT TO BE A DRAGON), characters are real, often despicable in very understandable ways (as compared to EVIL), and at least one of your characters is genuinely interesting (having focused on her dialogue mostly). Nathalie is great. A power hungry 17 year old sorceress who you first meet relishing in the fact that she just blasted a few Avadon prisoners into nothingness. A character who starts shaking with excitement (as described in game) when faced with a tough adversary. Very well done.
Encounter Design: Ahh....Jeff Vogel has always had a certain knack for encounter design. Sure, there are trash mobs, but in Avadon you rarely feel bothered mowing through them. This is not only due to the auto heal mechanic (which is contentious and arguably unneeded were healing more thoroughly integrated into the shaman class) but more importantly due to great boss encounters. For example, the sorceress shade, who teleports, at random, your party members to different parts of a dungeon during the fight. Or an escape from a flooding cavern while fighting off bands of ogres (The flooding will kill you, not an illusion of danger). There are certain recycled elements from past Vogel games (boss that spits out monsters when hit), but it works and it works amazingly well.
Story: Looking for faction based gameplay, as in Bloodlines, Geneforge 2, etc? Well, you may not find exactly what you're looking for. HOWEVER, the storyline/in game universe is serviceable, if not well-done. This may seem like damning with faint praise, but in an age where RPGs are a mutating, if not dying breed, it is quite the compliment. As a player, I was interested in the world, more so the characters, and I had the understanding that this was the first game in the Avadon series and as such it would taking some amount of acclimation. Point being, there is an argument that new game worlds, or one-off gameworlds (Planescape, Geneforge) should be introduced at first in a limited way, through a personal tale, rather than through making assumptions about the player's commitment to a previously unknown lore. Case in point: G1 and Sucia island. Players were not traipsing across Terrestria and their character was very much alone, no servant or cog in a mass political/military structure. Or Planescape. You were not immediately a member of a faction or, *cough*, a Warden by necessity. You were tabula rasa (relatively speaking) from the start and as such you could accept aspects of the game world in time, not all at once as if it were natural or expected.
This was a rambling post and I firmly believe game reviews are made in the aggregate, so c'mon and share. Also, I want to thank Jeff Vogel for making great games.
So do you think that Torment is about the equivalent of Hard in past games?
And the game was decently good, but not great to you?
And the game was decently good, but not great to you?
duanth000
Novice
Torment nows seems to be hard (aka the game is more balanced, no cheese tactics, than prior SW games, but the overall level of difficulty is reduced, whereas A6/G5 were balanced and difficult throughout). Game is good, not great
As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.