Avadon

[Metro]

Having gotten it in the recent Humble Bundle I've played it for about five or six hours (completed the first assignment to handle the dragon's problem) but I just can't seem to get into it. Judging from the map it seems like there's a ton of content in the game but I find character progression and combat so dull that I have no drive to continue. The story is okay, but again, nothing overly compelling. I'd sooner just replay some of the Gold Box games. Anyone here really love it? Does combat get more interesting later on? Doesn't seem like it would looking at the character 'trees.'

 

[sgc_meltdown]

I found both combat and levelling up equally boring. It's like the turn based version of titan quest except without the interesting skills and a better setting.
Mr Vogel really peaked with the final Geneforge, at least in that one you could use pokemon instead of just the most boring skill tree since torchlight

 

[Metro]

Funny enough my next question was going to be whether his other games were worth playing because my impression from Avadon would be a definite 'no.' I think the overall setting is pretty solid just that the story itself of your character being an agent doing assignments was pretty dull. I'm sure it gets more involved later on but I can't see myself pushing through to get to that point.

 

[SCO]

Geneforge 5 is what you want. Be aware than there are more options in that game than are apparent; you can avoid pissing off factions by using stealth.

(also, i think a creature has a larger FoV).

His eternal decision to remake the same combat centric game series over and over and over again (but with worse combat) is puzzling considering he has geneforge.

 

[sea]

Avadon is okay. I kind of hated it after the demo, but bought it when it went on sale a while back, and once I got past the first dungeon, the game started to improve. The writing is serviceable, and the story, while a very slow burn, is actually not too bad and does a good job of subverting some of the RPG cliches - even if you can see the twists coming, they're pulled off well. There is also some modest C&C which, while cosmetic until the endgame, still manages to be effective. I wouldn't say it has "moral dilemmas" but certainly not everything is cut and dried - lots of situations pose questions like "is the state worth preserving even when it is in the wrong or impotent?" rather than your usual paladin/devil stuff.

The biggest problem with it is that it has a literal fuckton of filler combat (there are good boss fights and some decent encounters, but about 80% of the game is a grind against the same old goblins/spiders/etc.), and Jeff seems to have a fetish for sending the player back to previous areas multiple times without there being much new to do or see. The character system also sucks, but there's some progression in loot (as well as nice rewards for optional dungeons/quests) to balance that out. I would recommend putting an hour or two into it a day - it's not really the kind of game that can sustain long sessions over extended period.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

80% of the game is a grind against the same old goblins/spiders/etc

absolute deal breaker. And to think there are people who rate avadon higher than all the rest of his work because it's prettier.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Good game.

But I await the Avernum remake much more.

 

[Metro]

...and Jeff seems to have a fetish for sending the player back to previous areas multiple times without there being much new to do or see...

Yeah I found it odd after I finished all the content around Goldcrag (?)/the dragon's den area that some quest givers told me to return when I was stronger. Since the area itself wasn't particularly interesting I question the design decision to have players revisit it.

 

[roll-a-die]

It's rather odd because it doesn't really look better than the other games he's made, it's just worse in different ways, yes they are higher fidelity, but they are also more spartan and honestly often less interesting to look at. They look cleaner, less weathered compared to the style from Avernum Six, less like medieval textures and more like form factor built themed housing. Higher fidelity often doesn't work very well in this case. It looks too clean. While the quality is better, the actual textures render it incongruous with the setting they need roughing up given that this game is supposed to be set in a savage type of setting, and everything looks ludicrously clean.

 

[Stabwound]

Speaking of Avernum, has anyone played the Mac version of the remake yet, which uses the Avadon engine?

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Just gonna stamp my name to all of Metro's posts here. Initially was having a good time, but burned out hard by the time I finished the first dragon area with the goblins. Kinda doubt I'll keep playing at this point. Bit of a shame since Sea mentioned the story building up nicely, and I was enjoying what I saw of it so far. Was curious to see how Redbeard shook out in the end.

Actually got a Geneforge question for you bros, does it carry over saves between games for C&C? I remember reading the Geneforge series did C&C better than any of his other games, but I don't know if they're neatly bundled packages or not. Haven't yet tried 'em.

 

[SCO]

Nope. Some main chars are speculated to be the same, but it's clean slate

 

[Johannes]

Actually got a Geneforge question for you bros, does it carry over saves between games for C&C? I remember reading the Geneforge series did C&C better than any of his other games, but I don't know if they're neatly bundled packages or not. Haven't yet tried 'em.

The different endings are way too varied to have them sensibly affect the next part. It's nice though that when starting a new game in the series, you don't have too much info your character isn't supposed to have, you'll have to gradually discover what happened in the canonical past.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

Avadon is an OK game (if slightly disappointing even by Avernum standards), but the Shadow Beast quest killed it for me.

Spoiler

It's part of the main storyline and the game goes out of its way to give you a million hints concerning the nature of the conspiracy involved, then proceeds to take away your choice at the crucial moment by inserting a cut scene(!) and preventing you from attacking the NPC which by that time you know is the real "villain".

I honestly can't think of a plot device/mechanic I hate more than that.

 

[Achilles]

It's way too simplified for it to appeal to the person who would normally be interested in this (the hardcore).

 

[Johannes]

It's way too simplified for it to appeal to the person who would normally be interested in this (the hardcore).

His sales numbers apparently prove that wrong. There's a market even if his games are simple and grindy.

The 1st 3 Avernums are probably still combat-wise simpler than Avadon, though those games featured all kinds of puzzles and easy-to-miss secret doors and areas - which he apparently removed or changed in the remake since there were cases of someone disliking them...

 

[Achilles]

I know the sales numbers, there's a market for everything these days. However, people who enjoyed his previous games should not automatically assume that they'll like Avadon.

 

[hoverdog]

I downloaded the demo. Gave up during the very first fight upon discovering that there is no combat dialogue window and I can't find out what were my chances of missing.​

 

[Angelo85]

Yeah with Avadon the big sellout of Jeff Vogel began. He made his new game series more accessible/streamlined, got picked up by steam (despite in the past always defending his pricing policy of "niche games for niche prices"). After shelling out 25 bucks or something in that region for Avadon (blind purchase because I enjoyed his previous games and was - as usual with Vogel games - more of the same with a different Story/World), three to four month later he got Avadon on Steam for under 10 dollars which pissed some people - including me - off very much. Then he ported to handheld devices.
Now he is re-imagining his old games with the streamlined skill/combat system and lower price point.

I personally think Vogel is looking to cash out now, while hanging his hardcore fans out to dry. He is aiming towards the more casual crowd now. Good for him if he makes more money now, but I personally vowed never to purchase a game from him ever again. Not that it really matters since there's probably like 10 people who are willingly taking my place by throwing their money at him.

 

[SCO]

When i found out that Avernum 6 had a quest compass in the demo i rage-quit

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Oh yeah, and Avadon had achievements as well. Good stuff.

 

[sser]

I got about ten hours into Avadon. The story seemed like it could be interesting, but it just never really picked up and the filler-combat more or less got to me before the plot could.

 

[Pope Amole II]

The focal decline points of Avadon are its encounter design and story. To be honest, I was enraged by the simplified RPG system at the time (because pretty much no RPG system remains - you choose one of two builds for each class and that's it, you may distribute some points, but it's all superficial since there's only one useful stat for each character and you need to overbuff that stat as heavily as the game allows you), but let's face it - Vogel's RPG systems always sucked. Like, he always offered a shitload of skills in his games (and in Avernum there were also traits), but due to poorly thought implementation there were little freedom there, there were a few right builds and a ton of wrong, useless and impotent ones, not to mention that there were even fewer right ones, so... So yeah, simplified RPG system I can live with, it's unfortunate when instead of healing you amputate, but that's life.

Nevertheless, combat and story are unbearable. After unique (at least amongst cRPGs) Geneforge and semi-unique Avernum (well, there were dungeon worlds before, but Avernum managed to avoid most of the common cliches, no fucking drows and other trash), we are left with boring power struggles (boring since each side consists of bad, ugly motherfuckers and you're given no reason why you should really prefer one side for another) in a 100% generic dork fantasy world. Yay. Oh, and faux C&C - double yay!

But even that could be tolerable - after all, despite decent setting, the story in Avernums was always DERP DERP DERP, always this shit about good and decent and brilliant avernites vs evil empire, but it was the excellent (at least in parts 5 and 6, hadn't played the other ones) combat that kept you from uninstalling the game - engagements were diverse and challenging, while in avadon we see what? First, uninspired, boring design where most of your enemies are just copy-pasted grind filler, most bosses are copied from Vogel's previous games (in worst and unimaginative manner possible) and new battles are simply sleep inducing (like clusterfuck that the final boss is, I mean, it's probably in eternal top ten of worst game bosses ever). Oh, and hard is the new easy, obviously.

So, basically, Avadon is awful not because it became too streamlined (no real C&C and simple role-playing system), but because it's gameplay is shoddily crafted, with spending as little effort as possible (it shows, really). A hack job, really.

 

[Roguey]

I downloaded the demo. Gave up during the very first fight upon discovering that there is no combat dialogue window and I can't find out what were my chances of missing.​

I don't think Vogel has ever showed you your hit chances in any of his games, it's always a guess.

 

[Pelvis Knot]

I played it for a week an hour or two daily, have to agree the combat is unbearably boring. You could probably slog through it for the story but the amount of filler is just unbelievable.
For example, the first cave with a helpful dragon is occupied by some goblins wretches. You have the opportunity to ask someone how many are there: he says around a hundred - and that is literally how many you'll have to slaughter. They won't do any significant damage to you, you have to hit each twice successfully to kill it.
Imagine Arcanum level shit combat coupled with Diablo's hordes of monsters.