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Banned from ITS Forum

Silellak

Cipher
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Tucson, AZ
This is an rpg site, and a rather caustic one, dedicated mainly to shredding rpgs for their failings, or perceived failings, even before they are released. See the discussion of Dragon Age and Alpha Protocol for examples. The developers of those games don't 'owe' us anything, anymore than VD does. Yet criticism of those games has gone so far as to include ongoing personal abuse of the designers themselves, and no-one blinks an eye.

Some of us would prefer that developers weren't personally attacked or harrassed if only because it might encourage them to come by more, that and the fact that it doesn't accomplish anything besides allowing bored idiots to circle-jerk on their mutual hatred of someone they've never met. Sadly, there's no sense in us voicing said opinion because you'll just get shouted down by those same bored idiots.

As VD said, I'm not sure why you don't grasp the difference between criticizing a non-released game based on its preceived failings vs. criticizing a game simply for not being out yet.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
VD, your desire to rebut points which specifically were not aimed at you (and I said exactly that in my post) doesn't do you any justice.

To repeat several points that you seem to have overlooked:
- I'm not agreeing the OP's claim that AoD is taking too long. I specifically stated that several times, and explained why in detail. Your comments regarding your efforts to keep the community updated, and progress in development are completely irrelevant to what I was saying - in that I already agreed with that and said as much.

- I made it pretty clear that I was differentiating (1) arguing that the game was not being overlong in development vs (2) the comments saying 'why do you think that ITS owes you anything'. The first is the right way to respond to the OP. The 2nd isn't. Given that I mentioned that ITS consistently responds in the first way rather than the 2nd, I don't know why you even bothered to post.

- "Well, first, neither Bio nor Beth nor any other company owes anything to anyone. I don't remember anyone ever saying that Bioware simply must do things a certain way because it's their duty and an obligation." - I agree, and as I stated a couple of times, you've been pretty consistent on that point. Others haven't been.

- "And? I understand that some people are having doubts and think that the game will never be released and if released, it will most likely suck, etc, but I wouldn't expect to see them on my forum, sharing their doubts and expecting to be reassured that the game will be released eventually. Surely, there are better ways to spend time on the internet?" - agreed, and I said as much. But there's plenty of folk on here who do the same on Bioware's forums and then boast about how they got banned from Bethesda's. It's the consistency that I'm after. Again, you've been one of the few that has been consistent in not trolling other company's forums pointlessly.


- "They should though. I liked the Codex more when Dave Gaider was dropping by regularly to reply to criticism, then when the criticism was replaced with "lol at Gaider", no?" - agreed, and given that I said as much, why do you bother repeating my own comments as though they're contrary to what I said? My point was that people see this clearly with regards to AoD but not with other companies.


- "We started beta-testing a month ago or so. Today we'll give the demo to a larger group of people, if it goes well, it will be out in 2-3 weeks. See the difference?" - yep. Pretty much consistent with what I said in my post. Why bother posting that when I've already said that what pissed me off was bhaab and others making comments like 'why do you think ITS owes you anything', instead of just accepting it was a legitimate, albeit erroneous, point of discussion and responding by explaining why the guy was wrong.

-"
But if people want to discuss game quality while the game is still in development, then by all means they should be free to do so without getting flamed for it - after all, we've already thoroughly mocked the idea of 'waiting til we've tried the game' for every other rpg in development, why should this one be any different?
:facepalm:[/quote]"
Do you really struggle to see the difference between saying that a point is a legitimate thing that can be discussed, and saying that the point is correct? There's a difference between flaming the OP for making vaporware comments and questioning the development time, and between arguing to the OP why he was wrong. There's no inconsistency between my comments for you to facepalm at - one paragraph was saying why development time is a legitimate topic (or more the point, that the Codex seems to have already decided that it is), and the other was arguing ON that topic and saying why the OP's view was mistaken.

- "Jesus... what are you talking about? Who the fuck is talking about excepting AoD from criticism" - out of all the posts so far, yours is pretty much the first - other than mine, that is - to actually address the issue of development time and argue that AoD isn't taking overly long. Every other post was butthurt about the fact that the guy raised the point. Even on issues where you're arguably correct, i.e. abusing a company on their own forums and crynig about getting banned, whining about vapourware as though he's paid money for it, that's pretty much standard codex behaviour regarding other companies. If you re-read it, you'll see that I wasn't so much saying that the guy's behaviour was fine in a neutral sense, but asking why the fuck the same people criticising him are either nowhere to be seen, or more commonly joining in, when it comes to doing the same thing with Bioware and Bethesda.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
Silellak said:
This is an rpg site, and a rather caustic one, dedicated mainly to shredding rpgs for their failings, or perceived failings, even before they are released. See the discussion of Dragon Age and Alpha Protocol for examples. The developers of those games don't 'owe' us anything, anymore than VD does. Yet criticism of those games has gone so far as to include ongoing personal abuse of the designers themselves, and no-one blinks an eye.

Some of us would prefer that developers weren't personally attacked or harrassed if only because it might encourage them to come by more, that and the fact that it doesn't accomplish anything besides allowing bored idiots to circle-jerk on their mutual hatred of someone they've never met. Sadly, there's no sense in us voicing said opinion because you'll just get shouted down by those same bored idiots.

As VD said, I'm not sure why you don't grasp the difference between criticizing a non-released game based on its preceived failings vs. criticizing a game simply for not being out yet.

And again, where are you to be seen in the other gazillion posts aimed at exactly that. I made it pretty clear that I don't think AoD is taking too long, but that the Codex's double standards pretty much invites guys like that. If we're all going to either cheer along, or at best refrain from posting, when guys personally abuse Gaider and Howard, rip into TSLRP for not releasing their free mod, and boast about how they got banned from the Bioware, Bethesda and Team Gizka forums, then yes you're going to get more than your fair share of trolls doing the same thing with ITS. I'm fine with folks calling for more decorum all round. I'm just saying it only encourages more stupidity to let it go with everyone else, but get uptight when it happens with ITS/AoD.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Azrael the cat said:
VD, your desire to rebut points which specifically were not aimed at you (and I said exactly that in my post) doesn't do you any justice.
I'm commenting on your post, not defending my good name.

- "Well, first, neither Bio nor Beth nor any other company owes anything to anyone. I don't remember anyone ever saying that Bioware simply must do things a certain way because it's their duty and an obligation." - I agree, and as I stated a couple of times, you've been pretty consistent on that point. Others haven't been.
So let's call them morons and be done with it. Why give that stupidity any credibility by recognizing it as part of The Codex Official Position On Things?

Anyway, overall, it does look like we are in agreement and the only difference is that it looks like you think that just because some moron said something stupid about a mainstream game it makes similarly stupid comments about AoD perfectly legitimate.

Why bother posting that when I've already said that what pissed me off was bhaab and others making comments like 'why do you think ITS owes you anything', instead of just accepting it was a legitimate, albeit erroneous, point of discussion and responding by explaining why the guy was wrong.
Why do you think it was a legitimate point?

Do you really struggle to see the difference between saying that a point is a legitimate thing that can be discussed, and saying that the point is correct? There's a difference between flaming the OP for making vaporware comments and questioning the development time, and between arguing to the OP why he was wrong. There's no inconsistency between my comments for you to facepalm at - one paragraph was saying why development time is a legitimate topic (or more the point, that the Codex seems to have already decided that it is), and the other was arguing ON that topic and saying why the OP's view was mistaken.
I don't think that was the issue. The development time IS a legitimate topic and it was discussed here and everywhere else many times in a reasonable manner.

Every other post was butthurt about the fact that the guy raised the point.
Not that he raised the point but the manner in which he did it.

Even on issues where you're arguably correct, i.e. abusing a company on their own forums and crynig about getting banned, whining about vapourware as though he's paid money for it, that's pretty much standard codex behaviour regarding other companies.
Perhaps I'm living in the past, but that's not how I remember the Codex. Have things changed that much? If they did, then you're 100% correct. If they didn't, then your position is based on the actions of a few morons who don't represent the site. Hopefully.
 

Seymour

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
152
Azrael the cat said:
the Codex's double standards pretty much invites guys like that

The thing is, this perceived double standard you complain about in Codex reactions actually has a valid reason: ITS devs are open to criticism, the others you named are very much the opposite. Team Gizka's self-importance and neglect with regard to updates, Bethesda's "trust us, we know better and it'll be awesome" and Gaider's obstinacy in making every RPG a hentai sim offshoot (I mean really, the first thing that comes to the guy's mind in a zombie survival game is... romance?) can only dismiss constructive criticism so many times before people just get tired of their bullshit and start the mindless bitching.

Take the dagger combat in AoD, for an instance. People thought it might get boring having to attack a million times per turn doing little damage each time, suggested a special attack that used more AP and caused more damage. ITS devs liked it, now it's in. You really think those other companies would have done the same? Didn't people discuss countless times even in Beth's own forums how boring VATS and its ludicrous slo-mo animations would get only to be ignored, hearing in gaming media interviews how you'd never get tired of them and ultimately finding out that it didn't get tweaked at all? This very week AoD has seen a change in combat animations due to public feedback, while I can't recall a single such case from any of those others.

The guys at ITS don't get a break because they're indie developers, but because they've earned one by not acting like assholes.
 

bhlaab

Erudite
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
1,787
Azrael the cat said:
Nice to see how you ignored my comparison to the bitching over The Restoration Project (scroll down the forum - my topic alone has about 70 pages of codexers bitching about how long that has taken) - that has had FAR more complaints about slow progress, and they AREN'T EVEN CHARGING MONEY! You should go start flaming the guys criticising Team Giska if you think development time isn't a legitimate point to bitch about.

I didn't ignore it, I just didn't read it because tl;dr faggot.

I don't see anyone in the Kotor thread demanding it be released. I see mocking of Tema Gitzka's defunct personality and complete lack of developmental progress. I don't think I'd want to play it even if it was released, it's just a funny thing to laugh at.

Secondly, I've said it before and I've said it again - I don't see why you'd think calling someone 'faggot' is an insult. I'm happily married these days, but I'm pretty open about the fact that I used to go both ways before I met my wife. If you want to flirt with me like that, then fine - I'm great at the whole dirty sex talk thing, but could you at least have the decency to include a photo of you masturbating or something? It's been a while since I had gay sex, and it's hard to get into the headspace for roleplaying it without some visual stimulation.

Thirdly, thanks for the tl;dr comment. There are few better praises than when some ADD kiddie acknowledges his comparative inferiority.

You know what you got tl;dr? Because you're the kind of person who responds to a single word with two boring unfunny paragraphs of bullshit.
 

Fat Dragon

Arbiter
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
3,499
Location
local brothel
Seymour said:
Azrael the cat said:
the Codex's double standards pretty much invites guys like that

The thing is, this perceived double standard you complain about in Codex reactions actually has a valid reason: ITS devs are open to criticism, the others you named are very much the opposite. Team Gizka's self-importance and neglect with regard to updates, Bethesda's "trust us, we know better and it'll be awesome" and Gaider's obstinacy in making every RPG a hentai sim offshoot (I mean really, the first thing that comes to the guy's mind in a zombie survival game is... romance?) can only dismiss constructive criticism so many times before people just get tired of their bullshit and start the mindless bitching.

Take the dagger combat in AoD, for an instance. People thought it might get boring having to attack a million times per turn doing little damage each time, suggested a special attack that used more AP and caused more damage. ITS devs liked it, now it's in. You really think those other companies would have done the same? Didn't people discuss countless times even in Beth's own forums how boring VATS and its ludicrous slo-mo animations would get only to be ignored, hearing in gaming media interviews how you'd never get tired of them and ultimately finding out that it didn't get tweaked at all? This very week AoD has seen a change in combat animations due to public feedback, while I can't recall a single such case from any of those others.

The guys at ITS don't get a break because they're indie developers, but because they've earned one by not acting like assholes.
:salute:
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,878,376
Location
Djibouti
bhlaab said:
You know what you got tl;dr? Because you're the kind of person who responds to a single word with two boring unfunny paragraphs of bullshit.

Stop right there, criminal scum. Azrael is actually one of the few people who post walls of text that are worth reading.
 

WhiskeyWolf

RPG Codex Polish Car Thief
Staff Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,729
Darth Roxor said:
bhlaab said:
You know what you got tl;dr? Because you're the kind of person who responds to a single word with two boring unfunny paragraphs of bullshit.

Stop right there, criminal scum. :smug: Azrael is actually one of the few people who post walls of text that are worth reading.
Now it's right.
 

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