KickStarter BATTLETECH - turn-based mech combat from Harebrained Schemes

[MasterSmithFandango]

Will flamers actually explode ammo?

 

[Darth Roxor]

It could have been the two lazors I have in there too.

I'm no expert, but I figure that if you did enough damage to destroy a component with the flamers, the ammo would still explode, no?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I'm just before the final mission and I would like to add some more firepower to my crew and I've only seen one Atlas and one King Crab despite doing several 4.5/5 skull missions. Current lance runs something like this: Highlander (the story one) with Gauss Rifle, 2xSRM6, PPC and M Laser; another Highlander with ACC/2, 2xM Lasers, 3xSMR6 and one SRM2, a Striker with 4xLRM15 and Battlemaster with 7xM Laser. Works pretty well but I'm not satisfied with the overall damage output so I want something bigger.

You shouldn't have any trouble completing the final mission(s) with those 'mechs. Keep in mind that in the second part of the final mission, you are forced to

Spoiler

include Kamea in her Atlas II as one of your four lance members, leaving only three slots for your own mechwarriors and battlemechs. Aside from Kamea and her Atlas II, I had the special Highlander, a Battlemaster, and a Catapult.

I won the final battle in three combat rounds.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Not really worried about the final missions, just kind of wanted to catch them all. So far, I miss the Banshee, the Atlas and the King Crab but if I have to take contracts with 8+ assault mechs to get those, they can go get fucked.

Keep in mind that you can continue to play after the final missions, and the likelihood of encountering assault 'mechs increases afterward.

Though this means you'll experience more missions confronting two lances of heavy/assault 'mechs, which have a chance of appearing close together at mission start.

 

[PanteraNera]

just kind of wanted to catch them all

Finally it makes all sense, Game of Thrones + Pacific Rim + Pokemon.
To bad they can't make a decent running Unity game, otherwise we would probably get BATTLETECH GO

 

[Kalarion]

That armless motherfucker just straight up ran to my mechs and kicked 2 of them right in head. And all I got for that dead pilot was a shitty Banshee that can mount 2 lazorz and a cannon.

I have that model of Banshee, I actually ended up kitting it out for melee since it has... 4? 6?... support weapon slots. I ended up sticking a bunch of arm servo mods (+60 stability damage per melee hit, +30 melee damage), a gyro (-30% stb dmg taken) a leg mod (-30% dfa leg dmg), a bunch of Small Lasers and maxing its armor. It's a lot of fun to fuck around with in maps with restricted sight lines, I don't know if I'll ever use it in my A team though.

And no, you won't need to fight 8 assaults for a shot at an Atlas, they're just exceedingly rare. I got mine tooling around in Taurian Concordat space, doing missions for the FedSuns and Capellans. Be careful doing this before you have 4-5+ million in the bank though. The cost of traveling around in Taurian space plus the increased price from being disliked by the Concordat means it is (slightly) possible you will get low on money while searching around.

 

[oneself]

The AI. My God. It's obvious to me that HBS couldn't get the AI to behave in even a remotely competent manner. Their solution seems to be throwing more and more 'mechs at you at a time as you progress through the storyline and/or gain lance tonnage.

You say that, but if the enemy AI was actually competent to the extreme, you would be vsing LMBoats with no armor gunning down your mechs one by one while the spider with sensor, sensor range gear and ace pilot scanning your ass and getting out of sensor range turn after turn after turn.

Let's have better mechanics before making the AI more competent thanks

 

[Cael]

You say that, but if the enemy AI was actually competent to the extreme, you would be vsing LMBoats with no armor gunning down your mechs one by one while the spider with sensor, sensor range gear and ace pilot scanning your ass and getting out of sensor range turn after turn after turn.

Let's have better mechanics before making the AI more competent thanks

Mechanics are kinda fixed for a game like this. That is why it is so important to get it right the first time round because you are not going to get a second chance at it. You can tinker around at the edges with weapons specs and things like that, but the base mechanics are not going to be changed unless you want to make another game altogether.

The stupid part is that anyone who has ever played a tactical game like BTech TT would have been able to tell the morons at HBS that their mechanics are flawed from the get-go. It is right there sitting right in the centre of their shit: The ability to make called shots. MW4 had shades of this where at the highest difficulty levels, the enemy AI will always hit your CT. You can practically run around with no armour other than max CT armour and not be inconvinienced in the slightest. It basically turned the game into a bunch of glass cannons fighting other glass cannons because everyone will be going for CT called shots, which then locks everyone into the same tactics and same few weapons configurations (which is obvious from the mech builds being posted in this thread).

Just from looking at it from the outside, I can make the following observations:
- Ability to negate weapon drawbacks (e.g., minimum range) means that you remove the tactical consideration of what weapons to mount. LRM boats no longer squeal in terror when a Locust rushes in right next to them.
- Small map sizes means that things like hit-and-run tactics using long range weapons and a fighting withdrawal using the same is no longer possible. In fact, long range weapons become pretty much useless. Why bother bringing a sniper rifle to the fight when it is always at knife range?
- Weapons with ++ negates the reason for the miniscule improvements that LosTech weapons give. Some of them are even better than LosTech weapons, which begs the question as to why people have such a hard-on for LosTech in universe, punching a massive hole right into the foundation of the whole setting. What sort of tactical consideration are you going to have when LosTech weapons are twice as heavy with twice the heat for the otherwise same stats normal ++ weapon?
- Ability to crit pad any area lowers the reason for crit seeking in the game. An entire tactical option and 'mech build option taken out of the game. This is made worse by...
- Called shots. Dear Lord, called shots. Why bother getting heavy hitters like the PPC when you can get a whole bunch of Medium Lasers that can do more damage, when you know that every one of your shots is going to hit the CT anyway instead of being scattered all across the enemy 'mech like they should be?
- Melee lost every tactical application it had. Kicks, punches, DFA and charges all had different applications and reasons why you'd use them. Punches had an increased chance to hit the head, kicks leg 'mechs, charges knock them over and DFA is last resort over the obstruction high-knockdown attack that is dangerous to both attacker and target. The HBS game has none of this. Just one generic melee attack that looks like one 'mech ramming into another.
- Short combats with free resupply means that there is little reason to mount energy weapons in the place of ballistic weapons. This is made worse with the fact that ballistic weapons do more stability damage and a knocked down 'mech is open to called shots.
- Loss of movement penalties to accuracy means that lighter, faster 'mechs no longer has a place in the game. They tried to balance this with the initiative and reserve system, but that is a stupid system in itself (don't you tell me that the ability to act twice in a round isn't a bad idea; DnD got rid of that for Haste for a bloody good reason).
- The salvage system is horrible. The original system gives you a profit vs risk scenaio where you can batter a 'mech into submission and hope the enemy pilot ejects to leave you with valuable 'mech components to salvage (or whack him in the head). Or you can go the low salvage, lower risk way by using crit seeking to disable his components. In this one, you just blow them away, get three pieces and boom! Complete, pristine 'mech. It is going to be absolutely hilarious when they get to the Clan-era because suddenly, you have a full, pristine MadCat sitting in your 'mech bay when the rest of the Inner Sphere is struggling to scrape together enough components to rebuild a single Clan 'mech.

And those are just the ones I care to name. There are a lot more problems with the game mechanics alone, nevermind the lore issues, the script issues, the politicising of the game, the obvious Mary Sue, the performance issues and many, many other problems. When the base game mechanics are this flawed, when the base mechanics takes out tactical option after tactical option after strategic considerations, all you are left with is a small number of variations on the same theme, with what you actually put in a 'mech controlled by what you were able to find. That is not BTech. That is a Rogue-like, which is probably the appeal the HBS game has to certain players.

 

[Bladeract]

Sounds like a hot mess. It amazes me that with MW, something that should be an instant slam dunk home run, no one has managed to make a truly worthwhile game since MW 2:mercenaries.

 

[spectre]

Sounds like a hot mess. It amazes me that with MW, something that should be an instant slam dunk home run, no one has managed to make a truly worthwhile game since MW 2:mercenaries.

It usually goes like this: the devs start dicking around with the rules, do not implement all the rules, or make some cretinous interpretation of the rules for arbitrary reasons.
Turns out the system falls apart in their hands and they make further changes in an attempt to make it work. And surprise, surprise, it doesn't.

I've seen this happen in mechwarrior online. They figured light mechs melt too fast under fire and are useless, so instead of creating scenarios in which light mechs are usable, they decided to globally +100% to all hit points which, surprise, surprise, broke fucking everything(tm).
Whereas the actual reason for the suckage of lights was that area of operations was way too small, no electronic warfare was implemented (at that time) and there were no objectives that would make light mechs shine.

 

[Cael]

It usually goes like this: the devs start dicking around with the rules, do not implement all the rules, or make some cretinous interpretation of the rules for arbitrary reasons.
Turns out the system falls apart in their hands and they make further changes in an attempt to make it work. And surprise, surprise, it doesn't.

I've seen this happen in mechwarrior online. They figured light mechs melt too fast under fire and are useless, so instead of creating scenarios in which light mechs are usable, they decided to globally +100% to all hit points which, surprise, surprise, broke fucking everything(tm).
Whereas the actual reason for the suckage of lights was that area of operations was way too small, no electronic warfare was implemented (at that time) and there were no objectives that would make light mechs shine.

HBS admitted to it before the launch. One of them said "xyz never made sense to me, so we are changing it" or words to that effect.

It was just another fuckup in a long list of fuckups by that stage, and Shillarytron was going gangbusters downvoting anyone who had bad things to say about HBS and its game.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I'm throwing my grognard hat into the ring and saying that they should just emulate the classic rules and keep the tech somewhere between 3025 and the first couple years of the Clan Invasion (Return of Kerensky, 3049-3050). Base encounter difficulty by tonnage allowed on either side. When BattleTech started adding neat new technological supplements after this period, it began to screw up the game balance. It used to be that each side could mix and match their own forces based pre-determined tonnage and have a decent time of it. Yeah, no one wanted to use a large laser in the 3025 rules, due to heat considerations, and so the rifleman sucked, but that was the only problem child that stuck out to me back then. The clan invasions started to create an issue in terms of balance, as double heat sinks changed a lot up, but even then the additions were much more welcome because of the new options, lore, and factions introduced.

But then they added stuff like the gauss cannon and radars that could help a scout mech make artillery mechs more useful and make cool mechs like the archers that much deadlier. But then you had to have counters to that and new rules. Marketing probably drove the need for more expansions, such as when they decided to make short range missiles cooler, by creating a supplement where a short range missile had a penetration that could do one point of damage to interior armor and one point to exterior armor. Eventually what was new became old and tired again, and then the classic game went away with FASA and new companies took over and thought they could ratchet the game up to 11 and make everyone excited to play again.

We have the same trend today. Hey now, those short range speedy mechs are now too powerful since they keep evading and its hard to hit them, so now let's introduce a sliding evasion point system so you can't have the advantages of running around the whole battle... every 'fix' has broken the game a bit more. But no one who ever gets to hold the publishing license wants to dial it back, because then what are they offering to the customers and how do they justify their existence otherwise?

 

[Bohr]

 

[Quigs]

Been playing BT for 25ish years. Worked a few Cons for them briefly. I'd cut it off 3067. Anything Jihad was Herb Beas/Ben Rome bullshit, so fuck that noise.

3050 is clans. Neat. 3055 is the first attempt at countering the Clans. IS omnimechs. They suck, but they exist. Neat. 3058 is post truce and this wierd tech era where everything is kinda half assed and rushed for no real reason. 3060 is the good mechs good tech good reason stuff. I don't know why I'm explaining myself like an idiot, but there's a definitive line between the 58 -60 stuff and the 67 stuff. The Avatar and Dragonfire are ugly, bad mechs. Fafnir, Akuma, Ninja-To, Legacy? Those things are fucking badass.

Lastly, anything from that bullshit robotech box mech era can go suck a cock. The Marauder is an ugly piece of shit.

 

[Bladeract]

The Marauder is an ugly piece of shit.

 

[Cael]

Been playing BT for 25ish years. Worked a few Cons for them briefly. I'd cut it off 3067. Anything Jihad was Herb Beas/Ben Rome bullshit, so fuck that noise.

The whole Jihad was bullshit. ComStar splinter faction basically killed 90% of CBT characters, started a war against the Clans and Inner Sphere and won... until ultra-Mary Sue Devlin Stone showed the Inner Sphere the error of their ways and so terrified everyone that they gave him everything he wanted? Sounds like Saddam's wet dream taken to space. And then they added in the fetishists' wet dreams of incest, murder, rape and assorted sex acts that is illegal in just about every one of the 200+ nations out there in real life. Whoever that came up with that shit was deranged, deviant and should be arrested for everything from paedophilia to beastiality.

 

[Cael]

And all it took was another dead pilot because a fucking Victor one shot the head clean off...a-fucking-gain. In b4 build is shit, it's a WIP.

Put the ammo in the same spot as the launcher/gun. If either is hit, you have lost the weapon anyway. No point in keeping them separate.

From that screenshot, it seems that HBS knew that their rules were shit and that everyone is going to home in on the torso sections. To compensate, they have not only multiplied the armour ratings by 5, they have made it so that that max armour applies only to the front of the 'mech not split between the front and rear as per BTech. That means you can mount additional armour points in the torso to help counter the glass cannon syndrome.

 

[Kalarion]

D_X Man I want one of those...

I'm looking at that loadout and wondering about going something like:
- 2 SRM6s (6 tons)
- add a pair of LRM15s to the LT (14 tons)
- add a second pair of MLs to the RT (4 tons)
- pop an SL and MG in each arm, remove both A/Cs (2 tons)
- 3 tons of ammo each for the SRMs and LRMs (6 tons)
- 1 ton of ammo for the MGs (1 ton)

Keeping the jump jets and DHSs will put the total loadout weight at 41 tons. With 35 tons of internal structure and engine, that leaves 24 tons for armor. I believe you only need 23 tons to max all armor, so you'd have 1 free ton to throw into whatever you feel... perhaps another ton of SRM/LRM ammo? 1 ton of armor in this game is 80 points, so 1860 total armor.

I feel like that would make a good all-rounder. Let's assume no mods on the weapons. At close range you have:
- 100 from the MLs
- 120 from the SRMs

If you're doing what you normally do with your playstyle (that is, occasionally melee to cool off when needed), you're close enough to pop off with the SLs too... another 50 potential damage. So, 220 normally with a ceiling of 270 per round.

At long range you have:
- 120 from the LRMs

Respectable meltation as you're closing in to slug it out. And the stability damage from 2 LRM15s would be nothing to sneeze at either.

Compare to your current build. Assuming you engage at close range with both A/Cs you're looking at:
- 120 from the SRMs
- 45 from the AC/5
- 60 from the AC/10
- 50 from the MLs

So, 255 total when you're up close and personal. That's a little more than 1 ML more worth of damage than my suggestion.

But your options to engage at range are severely limited. You've only got your A/Cs, so a piddling 105 damage at range. Stability damage wouldn't even come close to the pair of LRM15s.

The big advantage over time comes from the armor. Your loadout has ~1680 armor. A respectable amount, it's right around what my Atlases currently roll with, but it's a whopping 200 less points than my suggested loadout! That's 2 more full AC/20 hits worth of armor. Or more applicable in your case (since your torsos are already close to max anyways), that's a pair of DFAs without worrying overmuch about internal damage to your legs.

Fuck I love the 'mechlab

 

[Agesilaus]

I captured a king crab and equipped it with as many LRMs as I could fit, a couple of ACs, and stripped off the armour. It was the supreme glass cannon.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

3050 is clans. Neat. 3055 is the first attempt at countering the Clans. IS omnimechs. They suck, but they exist. Neat. 3058 is post truce and this wierd tech era where everything is kinda half assed and rushed for no real reason. 3060 is the good mechs good tech good reason stuff. I don't know why I'm explaining myself like an idiot, but there's a definitive line between the 58 -60 stuff and the 67 stuff. The Avatar and Dragonfire are ugly, bad mechs. Fafnir, Akuma, Ninja-To, Legacy? Those things are fucking badass.

Any Battletech game should be set no later than the Fourth Succession War (3028-3030). The silliness with the Clans was the beginning of Battletech's long decline. If you want a Battletech game with Star League era technology that had been lost by the later Succession Wars, then set it during (or shortly after the demise of) the Star League.

 

[Cael]

Assuming the salvo hits, does every missile in the salvo also hit in the HBS game?

 

[Trithne]

Every missile in the salvo rolls to hit separately. This includes rolling for where the missile hits.

However, only the first missile in each salvo has a chance to hit the cockpit.

 

[Cael]

Every missile in the salvo rolls to hit separately. This includes rolling for where the missile hits.

However, only the first missile in each salvo has a chance to hit the cockpit.

Ugh! They put a foot in it again, then, the clueless hacks: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables#Number_of_Missiles_Hit_Table

That table moderates the number of missiles that hit, so that you don't easily get all 6 of a SRM6 salvo hitting because you are at point blank. This helps mitigates the fact that a SRM-6 has the potential to do 12 points of damage, vs the medium laser's 5. No wonder we have so many SRM boats running around. They fucked up the damage calculation massively, on top of the fucked up free ammo and short engagements.

Also, one of the advantages of SRM is that each missile that hit rolls an individual to-hit and you can hit the head multiple times (pilot KO becomes a thing). I guess in the face of their messed up damage calculations, it doesn't matter very much. All of them are hitting the CT anyway due to called shots.

 

[Cael]

Assuming the salvo hits, does every missile in the salvo also hit in the HBS game?

As far as I can tell, no, they don't. I've seen SRM attacks for which only one missile actually landed or literal LRM rains and only maybe a dozen rockets actually hitting their target.

Hey, D_X. If you are wondering what I was saying about the Jihad thing, read this. That is just the tip of the iceberg that is the Jihad/Dark Age shit.

 

[Cael]

Also, one of the advantages of SRM is that each missile that hit rolls an individual hit location and you can hit the head multiple times (pilot KO becomes a thing). I guess in the face of their messed up damage calculations, it doesn't matter very much. All of them are hitting the CT anyway due to called shots.

Fixed