BioShock and Quicksaving AKA CyberP Returns

[Lhynn]

Most games that feature ironman mode. also a lot of action rpgs in general.

 

[Ash]

Different systems.

 

[Lhynn]

Same thing bro, it may not feature respawning, but you do get a constant save system, plus a lot of roguelikes also feature items that give you an "extra life".
Darksouls did nothing new, it just used stuff from other games in an interesting way. Also dark souls has an online component, same as the others, single player games that feature the same thing like diablo 3.

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

PC gamers, when using console emulators, do tend to abuse save-states (and I'm the first one to do that. Then not everyone does, I think). We are used to the quicksave/quickload design, it's a fact. PC games tend to be for that cause much more meta.

It doesn't mean that they're easier, in fact it's the contrary. At the same time, you can't deny that it's more popamole than the console's checkpoint design (but then, where does relevance ends, and where does masochism and frustration starts?)

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

It seems to me that like for console players, "old school" means an excruciating difficulty with at most 3 lives and no way of saving, just like the action games from the C64 era. For us, PC gamers, "old-school" means a more complex system and a certain time to master it. We do need our save states.

(Of course there are exceptions, like the first great PC FPS from the nineties such as Doom or Blood, which were quite straightforward, but hey, you can't win every time at theorycrafting).

 

[Zombra]

Just to throw an important point in that's not been mentioned, player-moderated saving takes on a very different complexion depending on its level of convenience.

Quicksave is just a faster save button. It saves time, nothing more.

This is bullshit ... or rather, it's technically true but very misleading. A telephone "just saves time" compared to the Pony Express when it comes to communication, but the nature of that savings has a tremendous impact on the surrounding context. The same is true with a quicksave compared to the "slow saves" of old. When there's no downside to tapping F5, player behavior adapts to incorporate it constantly. When a save system costs the player time, he uses it in a very different way.

 

[Roguey]

Whether I have to hit a button or hit a button to pull up a menu, it makes no difference to me.

Also rolling my eyes at the suggestion that Dead Man's Switch is "less popamole" than Dragonfall.

 

[Lhynn]

Whether I have to hit a button or hit a button to pull up a menu, it makes no difference to me.

You are either not being honest, or have never really thought about it. But yeah, quicksave makes you save a lot more often.

 

[Ash]

All unlimited player-mediated methods are still popamole I want my saves permitted & designed intelligently by a pro around the game events.
But yeah, a dedicated keypress entirely for saving just encourages constant whoring, but it is ultimately up to the player's willingness to hit it.

 

[Lhynn]

Saving/Loading doesnt make games easier, it just makes them shorter, or longer if you assume that players will eventually get frustrated enough to quit, because replaying content is generally boring as fuck, and this is an area where rpgs usually suffer more than other genres..

 

[Ash]

Saving/Loading doesnt make games easier

It absolutely can, although more for real-time, skill-based games. It enables you to cut a succession of challenges down. Think of some hardcore boss in a old school real time game where you have to dodge crazy amounts of attacks. Dodging one attack? Easy. Dodging all of them in a row? Not easy at all. Saving after each successful dodge would make it piss easy.

Real world alternative: one pushup? Easy. 50? No noob is gonna manage that without the ability to save their count in between.

It also enables you to find the best strategy to any given challenge easier, or the best/preferred outcome to dialogue options and such. And then of course there's die rolls too. It's manipulation of time at will, doesn't get more OP than that.

 

[Lhynn]

Saving/Loading doesnt make games easier

It absolutely can, although more for real-time, skill-based games. It enables you to cut a succession of challenges down. Think of some hardcore boss in a old school real time game where you have to dodge crazy amounts of attacks. Dodging one attack? Easy. Dodging all of them in a row? Not easy at all. Saving after each successful dodge would make it piss easy.

Real world alternative: one pushup? Easy. 50? No noob is gonna manage that without the ability to save their count in between.

So dont allow saving in combat, its been done since forever.

It also enables you to find the best strategy to any given challenge easier, or the best/preferred outcome to dialogue options and such.

As opposed to a quick alt tab?

And then of course there's die rolls too. It's manipulation of time at will, doesn't get more OP than that.

Thats because random checks are retarded. Just have static checks, or randomize them on a new game seed.

 

[Ash]

So dont allow saving in combat, its been done since forever.

Well there you go! A restriction on unlimited saving, addressing the problem at its core. That said there is usually more challenges than just combat in a game that really cannot all be addressed.

Anyhow, there's other reasons than just challenge as previously mentioned. Stop defending popamole

 

[Lhynn]

So dont allow saving in combat, its been done since forever.

Well there you go! A restriction on unlimited saving, addressing the problem at its core. That said there is usually more challenges than just combat in a game that really cannot all be addressed.

Because it doesnt need to be adressed. saving mechanics are there to avoid repeating content.
Also forbidding savng in combat has a different reason, its not to prevent "exploits", its to prevent the player from locking itself in a death loop.

 

[Ash]

"saving mechanics are there to avoid repeating content."

Ain't nothing wrong with repeating content (within reason). Failure should have consequences and challenges shouldn't always be tackled one by one, but in succession as given in the examples above. The difference is a hurdle to an obstacle course. I know which one sounds more fun to me.

"its not to prevent "exploits", its to prevent the player from locking itself in a death loop."

Source?

 

[Roguey]

You are either not being honest, or have never really thought about it. But yeah, quicksave makes you save a lot more often.

I always save whenever I hit a "I don't want to redo everything I just went through if I mess up in the next few minutes" part regardless of how long it takes.

 

[Lhynn]

Ain't nothing wrong with repeating content (within reason).

Yes there is, its repetitive and boring, especially on story driven rpgs.

Failure should have consequences

It does, having to reload is a consequence. But i get what you mean, people that want to deal with permanent consequences play roguelikes tho, normal gamers usually dont want to be burdened by it.

and challenges shouldn't always be tackled one by one, but in succession as given in the examples above.

Sure, so dont allow saving in combat .

The difference is a hurdle to an obstacle course. I know which one sounds more fun to me.

Neither sounds particularly fun when you put it like that.

Source?

Its common sense, and its been around since the 90s. Its generally a bad idea to allow saving in combat, for both the player and the game. it breaks the flow of the combat, it kills the tension and it can give room to the aforementioned endless death loops or other bugs. I remember it being on baldurs gate, but it probably was in many games before that.

I always save whenever I hit a "I don't want to redo everything I just went through if I mess up in the next few minutes" part regardless of how long it takes.

For most people thats around every 10 seconds if they have quicksave, a lot longer if they have to actually stop playing to save, some people will even go hours without doing it, if the game features autosave i will go tru entire sessions with just that.

 

[Zombra]

Also forbidding savng in combat has a different reason, its not to prevent "exploits", its to prevent the player from locking itself in a death loop.

Weird. I've exploited permissive save systems many times, in combat for example, yet I've only rarely saved any game before unavoidable death. And when I did, I just reloaded a previous save. There are autosaves and so forth to prevent death loops for even the most inattentive player. I honestly think restricting saves is a means to increase challenge and make decisions consequential - "Iron Man Lite".

 

[Lhynn]

Also forbidding savng in combat has a different reason, its not to prevent "exploits", its to prevent the player from locking itself in a death loop.

Weird. I've exploited permissive save systems many times, in combat for example, yet I've only rarely saved any game before unavoidable death. And when I did, I just reloaded a previous save. There are autosaves and so forth to prevent death loops for even the most inattentive player. I honestly think restricting saves is a means to increase challenge and make decisions consequential - "Iron Man Lite".

Up to the game bro.