Blizzard announced "Classic" World of Warcraft

[Metro]

What are all these things that I am forgetting? You playing with bad people doesn't mean the dungeons were more challenging than TBC 5-man heroics.

Where did I say they were more challenging than TBC heroics? Anyway, I'm sure you were clearing Scholomance 5 man in 10 minutes the first month of classic, right? Just save it.

 

[Lacrymas]

Content will be cleared faster because mods are here now. When vanilla came out raid frames didn't exist w/o mods, you didn't know class or encounter mechanics. Even monkeys who continued playing for 10+ years will have a easy time. Not to mention how often progress bosses were bugged.

That's actually a misconception, vanilla did have addons and information. Elitist Jerks existed back then, too. The top guilds were experienced MMO players coming from the good EQ guilds, so they knew what they were doing. Mechanics and bosses weren't this shadowy mystery that nobody knew anything about, just most people didn't because they didn't know sites like EJ existed. Addons are in a similar vein, they were even more powerful than now, like Decursive, BigWigs, HealBot, ForceAssist, etc. Bosses took this long to down because they were either bugged (BWL), mathematically impossible (C'Thun), have skewed statistics like Ragnaros (people had to level to 60, then grind enough rep with Hydraxian Waterlords, everything counted) or some combination of that.

Here's a cool screenshot, I think from before the world first KT kill ->

 

[gruntar]

I need a functioning definition of what you think "community" is. Not having enough people to raid and going at it with other guilds? Which raises the question why you didn't merge and cut out the middle-man. Talking to people? Doing quests with a few people? What? Bare in mind that none of these things are exclusive to vanilla.

EDIT: I am starting to understand why people like vanilla so much compared to any other expansion. Being young is one thing obviously, but what matters is that they haven't actually grappled with vanilla's mechanics and systems. All they did was go to 5-mans, UBRS and the occasional MC/ZG, never going prepared with buffs and consumables, and some spammed battlegrounds till they were bored.

Community to me meant recognizing people around you and being recognized if you played a lot. You vaguely knew top pvpers, raiders, profession masters, server assholes and primadonas. Same with guilds, you knew which opposing guild you should avoid because they were gankers which were top raiders and so on. There also was a good chance on seeing each other doing stuff on daily basics. You could be biggest autist that never talked to anyone and still be a part of community. It was like living in a small town.

That sense of community was eroded with each expansion, the biggest blow to it being flying as it removed 90% of interaction between players in open world, lfg tool being nail to its coffin and shared zones being pissing on its grave.

 

[Parabalus]

Content will be cleared faster because mods are here now. When vanilla came out raid frames didn't exist w/o mods, you didn't know class or encounter mechanics. Even monkeys who continued playing for 10+ years will have a easy time. Not to mention how often progress bosses were bugged.

That's actually a misconception, vanilla did have addons and information. Elitist Jerks existed back then, too. The top guilds were experienced MMO players coming from the good EQ guilds, so they knew what they were doing. Mechanics and bosses weren't this shadowy mystery that nobody knew anything about, just most people didn't because they didn't know sites like EJ existed. Addons are in a similar vein, they were even more powerful than now, like Decursive, BigWigs, HealBot, ForceAssist, etc. Bosses took this long to down because they were either bugged (BWL), mathematically impossible (C'Thun), have skewed statistics like Ragnaros (people had to level to 60, then grind enough rep with Hydraxian Waterlords, everything counted) or some combination of that.

Here's a cool screenshot, I think from before the world first KT kill ->

Addons then weren't even close to the level (in both quality and spread among [average] players) they were later, I didn't mean to imply they didn't exist.

IIRC there weren't even proper raid frames for healers w/o mods initially. Stuff like CT_RaidAssist (precursor to Bigwigs[that one was around BWL?]) or w/e only came (were adopted) a while later, the "move out of the fire" stuff for plebs. Don't think there were even enemy cast bars by default, I remember you couldn't see your HP without mousing over.

I member when PvP trinkets came out (zerker rage in raids same principle) somebody quickly made an addon which instantly used them when appropriate. Blizz nuked that API in the next patch, then they just key bound the trinket to the movement keys for the same effect, which lasted another few patches, was funny.

 

[Lacrymas]

Here's a fun video of the first ever Ragnaros kill and you can see what kind of addons they were using. More specifically, you can see that someone knows exactly when Sons are going to spawn (look at the raid chat), so they had some raiding addons that warned about mechanics even then. I don't know why the rogue is clicking his abilities, even though he has them bound, or at least I think Cold Blood is bound to Q.

 

[Delterius]

Alterac Valley was great fun and the last time WoW got anywhere close to the glory of fighting in open world pvp just for the sake of it.

RIP Hillsbrad and Stranglethorn. A pox on arenafags.

 

[Lacrymas]

Alterac Valley was great fun

Why?

 

[Bester]

I remember an addon came out during BC that allowed you to join AV with a pre-made raid vs randoms.
I was one of the 4 people on the server capable of leading such raids successfully. Used a certain tactic to win with 600 honor by the 12th minute. (honor cap was at 60k)
That was probably the most fun I had with wow's pvp. Commanded a giant raid to rape allies like crazy and farm honor incredibly fast.

 

[Delterius]

Alterac Valley was great fun

Why?

For the same reasons that the server crashing battles around Hillsbrad and in Stranglethorn were cool. Big ass battles on the allied bridge and inbetwen the horde towers. Its PvP and fun for its own sake. Arathi approaches that same feeling, what with parachuting through the smith towards the mines and such. But it ain't the same.

I still remember the moment Battleground EXP was introduced and all of a sudden people actually wanted to win AV. Rallying horde side to summon the elemental, only to find out it was stuck on level 60 and nerfed like all the other NPCs was disheartening. But it all felt like you were part of something bigger.

Really, AV just wasn't for gulch campers, arena lovers and twinks. People who play for the carrot instead of the race.

 

[Colour Spray]

Vanilla Alterac Valley is a pretty rounded battleground.

It's hard to take any forward position, which makes attacking harder than defending. Which leads to a group zerg of players who don't want to leave their comfort zone. Which, in turn, creates the opportunity for smaller groups of elite players to circle around the zerg and take a graveyard and hold it. The only time players aren't directly interacting with other players is when the game is so stale-mated that the mining strategy becomes the best alternative win-condition. You still get warnings that the enemy team is mining so that you run passed and disrupt them. The most common way for the game to end is when one team manages to hold a forward position for long enough that the enemy team is back to the spawn-cave.

Because it's harder to attack than defend an already taken position, the weaker team is generally the one that refuses to communicate with each other. It also takes a while to play out, so if you enjoy just taking part in the zerg you're not wasting your team's time, either, because you have to be able to defend your own graveyards.

Modern AV is a race in which two teams run passed each other to kill a paper-thin boss faster than the other team; where alliance have enough advantages from the map asymmetry that horde needs to work way harder to win.

I agree that TBC has community too. I only raided up to AQ20 in vanilla because i was semi-casual and not prepared to leave friends behind to get in to a proper guild, but I completed Sunwell in tbc. Nobody is calling into question the quality of TBC's community, it's only a judgement based on cumulative changes that erased the concept entirely for all but a select few popular streamers and their fanboys. Even on busy servers you will begin to recognise people if you play enough. That asshole who was trying to gank you the entire time in searing gorge? It's not a coincidence that you were both playing at the same time, in the same area. So you tend to butt heads with the same people again and can create connections that will never exist in the modern game. The same goes for randoms of your own faction you keep encountering because you recognise them to be decent players, and they are at a similar progression level as you are.

No, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, but vanilla is a time when the journey is more important than the destination; rather than the eventual mindset that overtook the game, which lacrymas seems to share. That, 'the game doesn't start until you start raiding at level 60!'

 

[shihonage]

I never understood how people could tolerate PvP in WoW. WoW uses TCP/IP protocol. Create two different accounts and login on two computers at once, then move one character and see how long it takes for them to move on the other computer. Then you'll understand.

Meanwhile Light's Hope's PvP server is the only one with good population (6000 people online right now), so i guess I'm stuck with PvP shit and being ganked randomly as I try to do quests.

 

[Lacrymas]

Vanilla Alterac Valley is a pretty rounded battleground.

It's hard to take any forward position, which makes attacking harder than defending. Which leads to a group zerg of players who don't want to leave their comfort zone. Which, in turn, creates the opportunity for smaller groups of elite players to circle around the zerg and take a graveyard and hold it. The only time players aren't directly interacting with other players is when the game is so stale-mated that the mining strategy becomes the best alternative win-condition. You still get warnings that the enemy team is mining so that you run passed and disrupt them. The most common way for the game to end is when one team manages to hold a forward position for long enough that the enemy team is back to the spawn-cave.

Because it's harder to attack than defend an already taken position, the weaker team is generally the one that refuses to communicate with each other. It also takes a while to play out, so if you enjoy just taking part in the zerg you're not wasting your team's time, either, because you have to be able to defend your own graveyards.

No, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, but vanilla is a time when the journey is more important than the destination; rather than the eventual mindset that overtook the game, which lacrymas seems to share. That, 'the game doesn't start until you start raiding at level 60!'

All of the AV stuff is invalidated when you realize that 5 mages can sit at the base's towers and nobody can ever get in. About "the game doesn't start until you start raiding at level 60!" - the problem is that it doesn't end at 60 either. I already said that the best parts of vanilla are pre-60 or, more specifically, pre-end-game, like dungeon runs. At one point you do get to raiding, however, and the game stumbles over trying to find stuff for you to do, so it defaults to the cheapest possible ways.

 

[Delterius]

that 5 mages can sit at the base's towers

You really don't know what you're talking about, man.

 

[Keppo]

Burning Crusade is the best WOW by far.

 

[Lacrymas]

You really don't know what you're talking about, man.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't. It's not my problem nobody got the idea to do that when you were playing. 5 frost mages spamming Blizzard and gg.

 

[Bester]

It's hard to take any forward position, which makes attacking harder than defending.

In random raids it's difficult only because everyone is an idiot.

If you send at least 3 people in stealth to capture a graveyard, they'll do it no problem. I used to do it solo as a druid, but then I'd almost always lose a fight while capturing it and not a single idiot would come to my aid.

AV is only difficult because of people's inability to cooperate without express instructions.

 

[Direwolf]

It's not about being rewarded, it's about it being pointless and you having a goal you are working towards that is needlessly drawn out. Sure, it might be fun the first 3 times, although it really wasn't because of its bad design, but then what? You have to do it a LOT, the least of which is to get max rep for items, the longest being ranking up. Like I said many times, if you didn't have any long-term goal for vanilla, like serious raiding or rank 14, then vanilla was great, logging in for a bit to do an AV and have fun doing it, you didn't even begin to see vanilla's problems. But if you had long-term goals, oh boy, the "fun" begins. Rotating raids daily, the low quantity of raid drops and low drop chance for the good items, a lot of grinding for consumables if you were retarded enough to not work the AH, the shitty and limited economy even if you were, grinding reputations, the degenerate gameplay due to meter whoring, spending 16 hours a day in BGs for rank 14, etc. etc, the list goes on and on.

I was working shifts at that stage of my life and had whole weeks off at a time. Spend a whole week grinding AV for exalted with Stormpike for the mace. And the epic insignia trinket. Haven't played AV since.

 

[Metro]

You really don't know what you're talking about, man.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't. It's not my problem nobody got the idea to do that when you were playing. 5 frost mages spamming Blizzard and gg.

Bro, we've already established you're posing as some experienced vanilla player. Going to bet you and Parabalus are no older than 25 which would make you kiddie leechers back then.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Revisionist perspectives on vanilla WoW are always amusing.

I wasn't on a l33t guild or anything, but we still managed to kill Rag soon after BWL was out and it was a lot of fun until we had it on farm status. You'll never convince me that Zul Gurub wasn't fun when it got released. Fuck, I feel nostalgic thinking about Dire Maul tribute runs. I did that shit dozens of times.

Sure, loads of people sucked in raids, half the raid were girls half caring for their starving babies in one limp tit while vent porning with the guild leader for DKPs, but you gotta take the shit with the great feeling of discovery and scale. The epitome of WoW knowledge was Thottbot, you still had to produce some mental synapses to play the game.

Datamining/youtube/ui mods (which devolved the game back into a spreadsheet) ruined everything, compounded with Blizzard's insistence to turn their game into a singleplayer skinner box.

 

[Beastro]

To echo what I said before, Velious released on Agnarr yesterday. One of the guilds grinded to get enough people flagged for Sleeper's Tomb then rushed in and woke the Sleeper, which not only fucked every other guild but theirs as well since. For those that don't know, once the Sleeper is awoken a bunch of targets in the zone vanish along with their loot tables, many of them are unique (like the gnome illusion mask) while others are highly valued, like the tradeable Sceptre of Destruction.

A bunch of their guildies have jumped ship too outright quitting while DBG has dismissed it as "All part of the Classic experience".

Keep in mind many servers back in the classic era held off waking the Sleeper to allow lesser guilds a chance at them including many of the PvP servers where you'd expect griefing to happen. On Rallos where I played it was an agreement by several guilds to wake it together to attempt a kill, which became the first legit Sleeper kill in the game.

Beware of this infecting any Classic WoW server.

They didn't fix the bugs in SCR because they have become a regular part of gameplay. Like stacking flying units into each other. I don't know if there are comparable bugs in vanilla. I've read something about warrior charge being slower or something, but I don't play warriors, so I wouldn't know.

Funnily enough many of the core gameplay mechanics in EQ began that way. Originally Feign Death pulling of mobs was looked on as an exploit and discouraged, until the community convinced SoE that the game was near impossible without it.

Much the same happened with the Cleric spell Complete Heal and raiders adapting the spell to do healing chains of it to keep the Main Tank up when it was meant to be used to heal the tank up after a fight ended.

 

[Jaesun]

The amount of DRAMA this game still continues evoke is utterly fascinating.

Please continue.

popcorn.gif

 

[Beastro]

The amount of DRAMA this game still continues evoke is utterly fascinating.

Please continue.

popcorn.gif

What I find interesting about it, like I said, this wasn't the way things were back then, but EQ emulator servers were rife with outright griefing and many of the more infamous individuals have come from that background.

It makes me interested in how the WoW emulator community populating a official classic server will pan out.

 

[Lacrymas]

Bro, we've already established you're posing as some experienced vanilla player.

You are the one who is posing, trust me. I already posted my T4/5 raid geared TBC character on retail, I just burned out from pally healing, it was way too simple, and the demands of a hardcore raiding guild, and quit raiding for a while, so I didn't go to the T6 raids. I can't prove what I did in vanilla because it seems the armory doesn't seem to keep track of what you did in vanilla, so I also posted my BWL/AQ40 geared priest from Kronos, so I have very recent memories of what raiding and vanilla actually is. Yeah, the numbers might not be exactly 100% Blizz-like, but they are close enough, the problem isn't the numbers. Like I said, it's the burn out from daily rotation of raids, the degenerate meterwhoring gameplay and loot councils that reward such behavior, and the grind for consumables if you grind (I don't, I work the AH instead, but the economy is extremely limited). These things were true in vanilla, especially the raid rotations, you needed your enchants from ZG, your materials from AQ20, your legendary mats from MC/BWL etc., the numbers are irrelevant in this case.

Anyway, about the 5 mages at AV thing, here are your citations -> Improved Blizzard and Permafrost

5 Mages spamming Blizzard + the archers at the towers spamming *very* damaging arrows makes for a bad time. You can't just "mount up and rush them" because movement speeds stack multiplicatively, not additively, so 200%*0.25 = 50%, so gg. This coupled with the fact that AV heavily favors alliance. Horde can also exploit the mages thing, though. I don't know what more citation I can give you.

I am the only one who keeps posting screenshots, videos, armory links to try to "prove myself", everyone else who votes me "retardred" or "shit" is trivially shitposting and saying "nu'uh, vanilla was great!" without anything to back it up, so maybe think about that.

 

[Makabb]

I already posted my T4/5 raid geared TBC character on retail

TBC was not vanilla, tbc was already starting the decline

 

[eric__s]

Keep in mind many servers back in the classic era held off waking the Sleeper to allow lesser guilds a chance at them including many of the PvP servers where you'd expect griefing to happen. On Rallos where I played it was an agreement by several guilds to wake it together to attempt a kill, which became the first legit Sleeper kill in the game.

Did you know a barbarian warrior named Pinaduz?