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Breaking the "emulation barrier" in digital distribution - why can't GOG sell Amiga games?

Infinitron

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or even old console games?

Here's a new article on Eurogamer where the writer accuses the emulation community of destroying any chance of legitimizing/monetizing old console and non-IBM PC computer games in the same way that GOG has already done for old PC games.

Personally, I think he's totally out of line (did the existence of the PC abandonware community stop GOG?), but it did get me thinking.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-05-31-we-need-to-talk-about-emulation

We need to talk about emulation
The assumption that old games have no value indulges our nostalgia but is killing the industry.

At the end of April, elderly gamers felt a brief flutter of excitement across their desiccated loins. Over 2500 games from the Internet Archive's Software Library could now not only be played using browser emulation, but could be embedded and played in tweets.

In technical terms, it was a pretty staggering achievement. While the modern console industry continues to cautiously dip a toe in the warm bath of streaming gameplay, enthusiasts had shown that older games could be shared and played - lock, stock and pixels - instantly on social media. No installation, no download required. It was too good to be true. "That won't last," I told myself and, for once, I was right. The very next day after the story broke, Twitter dropped the axe on it.

What surprised me, however, was the reason. Twitter shut the tweetable MS-DOS classics down because embedding "end-to-end interactive experiences" into a tweet is against their terms of service. The potential for hacker mischief is clearly unacceptable.

Yet nobody said a thing about the fact that many of those games shouldn't have been shared in the first place. I was honestly amazed that so many sites - including ourselves - excitedly covered the news, as they had with the Internet Archive's previous Console Living Room andInternet Arcade projects, but nobody raised the question of whether it was even legal.

The Internet Arcade launched in late 2014, offering browser access to over 900 arcade games. Street Fighter 2, Out Run, Gauntlet, R-Type - all the classics were there, as were licensed games based on Tron, Indiana Jones and Superman. Again, it was breathlessly covered in the media, not only by gaming sites but by tech and even business websites such as The Verge and Forbes.

Even then, nobody mentioned the fact that these were clearly copyrighted works.

jpg

The MS-DOS library in the Internet Archive lets you play the Dizzy games, despite Codemasters and The Oliver Twins making it clear to the retro community that they don't allow them to be distributed.

To see how absurd the situation is, you need only look at the other material hosted on the Internet Archive. You won't be finding any Hollywood movies from the 1980s and 1990s in the film section of the site, only public domain curiosities. Die Hard, Jurassic Park and Pulp Fiction are not available to stream or download, because that would clearly be piracy and would make Internet Archive no better than a disreputable torrent site. Yet copyrighted games from the same period are, it seems, fair game. Does that make sense?

I emailed Jason Scott, the curator of Internet Archive's software collection, to find out. He was happy to discuss the importance of archiving games history, so much of which is lost to compatibility issues and obsolete technology, and the technical challenges of improving the emulation experience. Yet when I said I actually wanted to talk about copyright, he replied "I'm not a lawyer, so I really can't discuss and speculate on legalities" and that was the last I heard from him. A follow-up email to the Internet Archive office simply returned a boiler plate explanation of how the organisation itself takes no responsibility for what users upload to its collections. Requests to speak to someone there who could comment on legal enquiries went unheeded.

It's this refusal to even acknowledge the issue that troubles me most, because sooner or later it will bite all of us in our 8-bit butts. I'm certainly not putting myself on a moral pedestal - I'm a retro gamer, I have used emulators and I continue to use emulators. It feels different when an individual does it, but I'm very aware that's really just a semantic dodge. As a community, this is something we all need to stop skirting around because, frankly, we're devaluing the very medium we profess to love.

The Internet Archive is, at least, a not-for-profit organisation operating with the best intentions, but its attitude to the commercial value of old games is reflected elsewhere. The crowd-funded Vega device will plug directly into your TV and let you play over 1000 Sinclair Spectrum games. Without those games, the device is literally worthless, yet the people who made those games were not offered any payment. Instead, they were asked to give permission for their games to be bundled with the Vega, in return for which Retro Computers, the company selling the device, would make a donation to Great Ormond Street.

jpg

The Vega boasts 1000 classic Spectrum games, but originally didn't offer developers any payment for their use.

I've spoken with former Spectrum developers - many of whom are still working in games today - who said they refused permission because they felt they were being emotionally blackmailed into giving their games away. It's a classic Catch 22 - the Vega needed games in order to have any purpose, but those games were apparently not valuable enough to actually spend money on. Thankfully Retro Computers has since seen sense, and will now apparently offer some form of royalty payment to developers when the Vega is released commercially.

Part of the problem is the way we ourselves, as older gamers, often view software piracy as a sort of charming throwback to the halcyon days of eagerly swapping C90 tapes with hand-written inlay cards during break time at school. The National Video Game Arcade in Nottingham even has a home taped copy of Andrew Braybrook's Uridium as one of its exhibits. That's how ingrained the idea is in the gaming psyche - it's seen as part of the culture.

It's not a cut and dried situation, though. If you don't actually download the code, because you're playing via a browser, does that still count as copyright infringement? Yet, by playing the game in a browser, you're still getting the same experience regardless. This is one of those areas where games diverge from other entertainment media and the law needs to catch up. There's a crucial semantic distinction between the code that "physically" makes up the game and the content, produced by that code, which the audience actually consumes. They're both aspects of the same thing, but one is protected by law, the other in limbo.

This is why we need clarification, and an open and frank discussion about emulation and rights, because we seem to have reached a point where games from just a few decades ago are assumed to be free for no other reason than their age and the fact that you can't buy them in shops anymore. In the age of entitlement, "out of print" is too often conflated with "public domain".

This has led to the bizarre schism in gaming, where old titles and hardware tumble over some invisible precipice once enough time has passed. It's tempting to believe that the widespread acceptance of emulation does no harm, and in fact helps bridge that schism by keeping older games in circulation.

jpg

Everyone knows that downloading a 1993 movie would be piracy, so why treat games from the same year any differently?

That would mean ignoring the realities of the games market though. The biggest problem that games face as a commercial medium is that there are no ancillary markets and no reliable revenue streams beyond the initial launch. You might make some money from merchandise on a major brand, or a budget re-release or special edition a year down the line, but ultimately once a game vanishes from the shelves and the front pages of websites, it might as well not exist as far as regular income is concerned.

Again, compare it to film. There, the cinema release is just the start of a film's commercial life. After that it can be sold on DVD or Blu-ray, it can be packaged for TV and sold to the likes of Netflix and Amazon Prime. It can licensed for Pay Per View in hotels and sold to airlines to show in-flight. It has what smartly dressed business people call a "long tail", making money for years to come and helping to fund more movies.

There's really nothing like that for games, apart from budget re-releases or special editions, which is why we have such an imbalanced industry. Games publishers largely exist hand to mouth, launch to launch, with their back catalogues turning over pennies, if at all. It's why there's such an emphasis on pre-orders, on squeezing every penny through the tills in the first few months before the price gets slashed by retailers eager to shift stock and make space for the next big release. It's why franchises get milked every year. It's why publishers have pounced so eagerly on DLC, because they're already looking ten years down the line and trying to work out how to keep their games from falling into emulation limbo.

That's not emulation's fault, but the widespread acceptance that old games have no value and can be freely passed around is a major barrier to solving that problem. When the Internet Arcade was launched, it was reportedly serving 1000 games per minute. That's an amazing figure, if true. It is truly brilliant technology. Yet what if those games were hosted on a site where users could buy a stack of virtual coins and spend them, as they would in a real arcade? What if the owners of those games gave their permission and got a cut of that money? What if there was a Netflix equivalent for retro games, which offered browser access to every arcade and home computer game you ever loved for a low monthly fee? We clearly still want to play these games, but at this point would anyone even pay for it?

jpg

The C90 tape filled with games is a totemic image for many older gamers, but has our nostalgia gone too far?

It shouldn't be an outrageous suggestion. In any other creative industry it wouldn't be. Yet, as gamers, we recoil when the notion of paying for old games comes up even as we complain that the very same publishers are trying to squeeze more money out of the games that are on sale now. It doesn't take much to connect the dots.

It's not an easy argument to make. There's nothing sexy or cool about arguing in favour of the financial rights of large companies over the immediate gratification of fans. Everybody likes free games, and nobody wants to be the one to put their hand up and ask "Is this right?" The Internet Archive certainly isn't the villain here, and I actually applaud the dedication of its volunteers in finding new ways to keep old games playable and accessible, but the way it treats games so differently to other media is part of a much larger problem. I'm also part of that problem. Chances are, you are too.

Emulation is our dirty shared secret, something we do with a nod and a wink and the understanding that everyone else is doing it, so where's the harm? From our individual perspectives, the harm is indeed tiny and insignificant. But cumulatively, when it becomes normalised, when it becomes something that is covered in the mainstream media as no big deal, when attempts to preserve old games end up killing them off as commercial entities, then we have a problem that directly impacts the games of today. Gaming can't move forwards if we're not willing to talk about our broken relationship with the past.

felipepepe, this is relevant to your interests.
 
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Diablo169

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Honestly I think a lot of it comes down to accessibility. People do still pay to play older games when they are re-released on newer platforms. If some of my favorite games from the Snes era for example cropped up on steam and ran with no issues I would have no problem paying for them.

People turn to emulation a lot of the time because there simply isn't a more practical option available to them.
 

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Honestly I think a lot of it comes down to accessibility. People do still pay to play older games when they are re-released on newer platforms. If some of my favorite games from the Snes era for example cropped up on steam and ran with no issues I would have no problem paying for them.

People turn to emulation a lot of the time because there simply isn't a more practical option available to them.
That's obvious, and it's what the joker who wrote his shit dances around. GOG only exists because selling old, emulatable games is lucrative.

BTW, I submited an article about Gaming History to Gamasutra on Friday. This is my take on the malus of piracy there:

First, Konami pulled P.T. - that famous playable teaser - the from the PS4 store. This means no one can download it anymore. Thus, only a small % of PS4 owner now can play this game, and no future PS4 owner - be it a gamer or a historian - will be able to get that game again. This sparked a lot of debate on the preservation of digital-only games.

Luckily, at least for the purpose of archiving, pirates already solved that issue.

São Paulo - my hometown - made the news two weeks ago when Uol Jogos reported that you can go downtown, pay $100 and pirates will use a Raspberry Pi to mod your PS4, clone another PS4 ID into yours and then copy its games from a laptop directly to your console.

P.T. is preserved, even if illegally. Thanks to pirates, P.T. (and countless other games) will never be like the Museo Del Cine Metropolis cut.
 

Unkillable Cat

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The author puts the blame on nostalgia, but the fault is on developers/publishers and their post-release support of titles - or rather the lack of it. It's either minimal or non-existant. That's understandable - what's the average lifespan of a game from its launch until the platform it was released on has become outdated and is no longer "at the front" of gaming? 5 years? Less? Compared to other mediums it's a laughably short time, makes one wonder if it's worth the effort.

TV episodes made in the 1960s are now unavailable for viewing not because of copyright, but because they simply don't exist anymore, there aren't any copies left. The best example is Dr. Who, many of the series oldest episodes are believed lost forever. Sometimes "hunters" get lucky and find film reels and/or tapes in old archives and an episode or two is unearthed, restored and aired. Today Dr. Who is one of the hottest names in TV entertainment, and yet not all of its episodes are available for viewing? Bizarre, but not a singular example.

The same thing is going on with films. We have films made as early as the 1970s that are unavailable today because there are no intact copies left. Better yet, we have films from as far back as the 1920s that are lost due to negligence on behalf of their creators/distributors. "Hunters" looking for those are looking in places as remote as cinema archives in former British colonies in Africa - and most of them are preserved on media that's notorius for having fragile lifespans. Same thing with music.

And don't get me started on books, that's centuries of history lost due to negligence, one would think that someone would have learned and realized that any and all media needs to be stored and archived somehow.

But no. One of Alfred Hitchcock's earliest films is believed forever lost and no one can ever bingewatch all of Dr. Who over a week or two, but one thing we can do is play almost every game that's ever been published, and that's not due to publishers and developers being kind and generous and supportive - quite the contrary. It's because we, the gamers, kept them alive via bootlegs and pirated copies, cracking copy protections left and right and making such a mockery of copyright laws that for many of us they're nothing but a joke - such a bad joke that people handling games generally don't give a crap about the law anymore. It just underlines the post-release negligence of developers and publishers, that more often than not they don't bother trying to chase after those that are violating their copyrights, decades after their work is released. This is a mentality that's mostly confined to games, but it's seeping out into the other media industries. This, in turn, breeds the "entitlement" mentality that's so rampant in gaming today - we fought the law and the law shrugged, now we can do whatever the hell we want!

Emulation is the other end of the archival process, the means to use the archived software. I don't think it's meant to defy the law, but to allow it to be enforced by providing a platform on which the copyrighted software can be used - but instead it itself comes under attack? Entitlement seems to breed stupidity and ignorance as well, it seems.

Archiving media is ALWAYS worth the effort. It's history, minor snapshots of society and culture from particular eras now long gone. Video games are no different, except the archiving process was mostly done illegally. There is a huge need to have serious, unbiased talks about game preservation, but until publishers/developers step forward and own up that the fault is primarily theirs - that they just couldn't be arsed to support their product so others had to do it for them - those talks ain't gonna happen. And that article ain't exactly helping.
 
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And the people who actually worked to make those Amiga games are likely to receive 0% of the proceeds from letting GOG sell them today.

Guy who wrote the article just wants to jew out the carcasses of old studios to corporations. It's not about preserving the classics to him. He just wants to profit off of someone elses work.
 

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Guy who wrote the article just wants to jew out the carcasses of old studios to corporations. It's not about preserving the classics to him. He just wants to profit off of someone elses work.

That would be too smart. Besides, who would ever throw him a bone, EA? LOL.

He just wants to build himself a mound of moral high ground and touch himself while standing upon it. "But muh law? Will someone think of TEH LAW?"

We slap teh law with our collective cocks, mister.
 

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Personally, I think he's totally out of line (did the existence of the PC abandonware community stop GOG?)

Personally, I'd say that it was the existence of the abandonware community that made GOG. Someone saw it and figured there was a market there. Why the same thing couldn't happen with emulation is beyond me. And let's be honest, making abandonware titles playable on modern systems is a lot like emulation anyway.
 

Stompa

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Don't DOS games sold on GOG come with pre-packaged DOSBox? That's already fucking emulation, it didn't stop anyone from selling those games again. Fuck this retard.
 

SCO

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Naturally the 'content creators' are waiting for good opensource emulators they can mooch off of without actually contributing.
 

pippin

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Sega sells Mega Drive and Dreamcast games on Steam. I assume those are emulated. The Mega Drive was one of the most important gaming systems on its day, and the Dreamcast is being held in high regard today even if it wasn't a real commercial success for the company. Nintendo also sells "old" games for their handhelds via their virtual store. I would like to know why gaming businessmen/women are so protective of their property and why it's so hard for them to establish new and creative ways of making business. It's obvious that most people would like to buy NES and SNES games if they could do it as they do with Steam or GoG. Just look at how profitable retro gaming channels are. If you're not going to support this piece of hardware, why contain it? Hardware is susceptible of problems like data degradation or similar issues, and re-releases are used to renovate licenses, most of the times. This is obviously a problem when studios don't live forever, but in the case of Nintendo, they seem to own part of everything they release, hence their gold stamp of quality. It doesn't help that they are probably not willing to take any sort of risk. Think of what will happen when amiibos die and people will be left with incomplete games because they coudln't get this fancy toy.
 
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All current console companies and publishers of games on consoles want to keep their multi-generational game backlog to themselves so they can resell it to you with each new generation.

I expect that a lot of stuff from older companies and eras is probably in an IP-limbo. Maybe not indefinitely so, but at least to the point where large-scale wrangling of rights with lawyers isn't a financially profitable endeavor.
 

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I'm sure they'd be more profitable than old PC games are, though. The NES/SNES retrogaming scene dwarfs the PC one.

I bet you could even get people to buy crappy ones. After every new AVGN episode about a crap game, tens of thousands of kids would buy it for 5 bucks a pop.
 
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I'm sure they'd be more profitable than old PC games are, though. The NES/SNES retrogaming scene dwarfs the PC one.

uhh, source?

In any case Nintendo in particular is notoriously frugal and unlikely to give away stuff to third parties.
 

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I'm sure they'd be more profitable than old PC games are, though. The NES/SNES retrogaming scene dwarfs the PC one.

uhh, source?

In any case Nintendo in particular is notoriously frugal and unlikely to give away stuff to third parties.
Twitch? Youtube? Any rom site with ~10 000 different games for download across various systems? Hell, how about this:
http://www.romhacking.net/?page=hac...gory=&perpage=20&title=&author=&hacksearch=Go

Those aren't even roms. Those are just patches for them. 548 for the super nintendo alone. That's a god damned scene. Find me another 500 unofficial Master of Magic type patches in one place and you could make your case.


And yeah, game publishers are scared shitless of competing with older works, AFAICT. The difference between the film industry that can sell 20 yeah old disney movies and gaming industry that won't sell 5 year old games, is that the game publishers assume (very wrongly) that nobody would ever want to own more than a handful of games, so if they can own half a dozen good games from the 90's, they'll never buy anything new.
 
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Twitch? Youtube? Any rom site with ~10 000 different games for download across various systems?

Yeah, it's easy to download a ROM torrent and throw up a site. How many actual downloads, though? Does anyone have stats for how many games GoG sells?

There's way too much of this "lol I'm such a nerd I played NES when I was 10 and I love Super Mario Bros" shit going around to ascertain actual interest in playing the games vs. people watching other people's youtube stuff about them.

Hell, how about this:
http://www.romhacking.net/?page=hac...gory=&perpage=20&title=&author=&hacksearch=Go
Those aren't even roms. Those are just patches for them. 548 for the super nintendo alone. That's a god damned scene.

If someone made a site with EVERY mod for EVERY PC game (even if we limit it to a specific era), I'm sure you'd have pretty good numbers. The SNES is not a single game, it's a system. And lots of these are bugfixes that wouldn't even count as mods on PC, or incredibly minor tweaks.

Find me another 500 unofficial Master of Magic type patches in one place and you could make your case.

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?dir=

Can't find a total of how many WADs they have, but searching for the string "wad" in the description turns up 4434 results.

Furthermore it's not my case to make, you're the one saying that NES/SNES "dwarfs" PC games and therefore the burden of proof is on you. I highly doubt that if they were released on GoG that they would be bringing in an order of magnitude more sales. Obviously the handful of important names would sell decently, but those are exactly the games that Nintendo DOESN'T want on the market.
 
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SCO

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We will never see nintendo selling, say, the complete SNES romset, even though they probably can, which i assume is what this major faggot wants.

Because money and artificial scarcity.
 

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We don't monetize ancient software because if the company that made it went defunct, it's impossible to figure out where the royalties go. Getting sued over a niche game that maybe a hundred people will buy for a dollar isn't worth the risk.
 

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SNES is a span of about ~8 years. Keep in mind that these were made after emulating it was popular. This isn't the same thing as modding Skyrim or making Doom wads. This is like modding games from the 80's with entirely fanmade tools. Work people only put in after the games were discontinued. And not minor mods either. We're not talking about adding in Macho Man dragons or putting the kids back in Fallout 2, we're talking about total translations or reworking entire game systems or writing entirely new plots and basically making a sequel within the same game engine.

And again, the twitch/youtube thing is a big fucking clue. You don't get dozens of people competing to speedrun a game when only dozens of people even care to play it. There's a reason people speedrun zelda and not diablo. Darksouls has enough active players to have a speedrunning community. So does the SNES Zelda (270 people watching someone do a reverse boss order speedrun right now, because normal speedruns have been done to death). Diablo does not.
 

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How many actual downloads, though?
Also, this:
Game Name
Downloads
Rating
Super Mario World
331084
4.5
Super Mario All-Stars
153836
4.6
Legend of Zelda, The - A Link to the Past
121565
4.6
Donkey Kong Country
111786
4.6
Super Mario Kart
93164
4.5
Super Mario World 2 - Yoshi's Island
89324
4.5
Super Metroid
79287
4.8
Super Mario RPG - Legend of the Seven Stars
66311
4.6
Donkey Kong Country 2 - Diddy's Kong Quest
65790
4.6
Chrono Trigger
64596
4.8
Mega Man X
64025
4.6
Donkey Kong Country 3 - Dixie Kong's Double Trouble
52385
4.5
Killer Instinct
48965
4.5
Final Fantasy V
47941
4.6
That's just off of one site (and just the SNES games mind, overall on the site Super Mario World is only 9th most downloaded). If GoG were pulling in three hundred thousand copies of Might and Magic 3, they'd be fucking rolling in it. Look at their 'popular games'. Not a single fucking one is retro.
 
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SNES is a span of about ~8 years. Keep in mind that these were made after emulating it was popular. This isn't the same thing as modding Skyrim or making Doom wads. This is like modding games from the 80's with entirely fanmade tools. Work people only put in after the games were discontinued. And not minor mods either. We're not talking about adding in Macho Man dragons or putting the kids back in Fallout 2, we're talking about total translations or reworking entire game systems or writing entirely new plots and basically making a sequel within the same game engine.

Uhh, yeah, sure.

First mod on the list:

Arcana EasyType

This is a really good and underrated game. If you like a good old school RPG that takes you back to the good ole days then try this game. It is also somewhat difficult at times. This mod takes care of all that for you by making it super easy.

What has been changed:

Adjusted the character stats to 999 HP/MP and 99 for the rest.
Second one for the same game:
A hardtype hack of a black sheep gem from the SNES era. It’s generally regarded as decently hard, but this hack caters to the truly masochistic!

Enemy spell damage has been doubled and enemy basic attack damage has been quadrupled.
Bosses and large monsters have been tweaked more precisely.
Most Attribute magic has been improved drastically.
First tier elemental spell power has been doubled.
Darwin now learns Cure2 in place of Attack Impair All.
Rooks now learns Petrify in place of Ruinous Mission.
Some adjustments to item prices.
Some minor adjustments to other magic damage.

So the first is almost literally nothing and the second is pretty much nothing as well.

There are big mods but they are very few and very far between.

And again, the twitch/youtube thing is a big fucking clue. You don't get dozens of people competing to speedrun a game when only dozens of people even care to play it. There's a reason people speedrun zelda and not diablo. Darksouls has enough active players to have a speedrunning community. So does the SNES Zelda (270 people watching someone do a reverse boss order speedrun right now, because normal speedruns have been done to death). Diablo does not.
Internet views really mean nothing. Certainly they mean nothing if you can't connect them to at least ~50k people interested in buying your stuff. The number of games in which you can do that is fleeting. And comparing Zelda to Diablo is a joke, they are completely different games.

How many actual downloads, though?
Also, this:

That's just off of one site (and just the SNES games mind, overall on the site Super Mario World is only 9th most downloaded). If GoG were pulling in three hundred thousand copies of Might and Magic 3, they'd be fucking rolling in it. Look at their 'popular games'. Not a single fucking one is retro.

This is like the MPAA saying that their movie was downloaded 10 Million times and therefore they deserve 20M dollars, because obviously every download is a lost sale.
 
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You're the one who asked for numbers. What the fuck is YOUR evidence? Show me the website with millions of individually downloaded dos games. Nobody searches for a rom site, searches for a particular system, finds Killer Instinct, downloads it, and then doesn't play it because they were just browsing. These downloads aren't the same as sales, but they are actual interest in the game.

You want to talk about Arcana (First only the list because it's an alphabetical list, not popularity, dumbass. And translations aren't even on that page, theres another 260 of those all on their own) how about why it has this:

http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/snes/arcana/characters.shtml

but not a single one of the Wizardry games does?

You're just making excuses. If there really is some huge fanbase for dos games, prove it.

If internet views mean nothing, what exactly do internet forum posts mean? Is our Betrayal at Krondor thread your proof of a huge dos game scene? Because you'd be crushed there too about a hundred times over.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,862
And the people who actually worked to make those Amiga games are likely to receive 0% of the proceeds from letting GOG sell them today.

Never understood this line of thinking.
People who worked on XXX game got money and they knew what they signed on and they most of often than not didn't pay anything from their own pocket.
Companies that corpsefuck old games do it because it always was theirs from start.

So it is literally case of hey you should pay "your house designer when you sell it because he is the owner of the game !"
Those devs that were smart got royalties with game after period of time being returned to them.

Either way soon first games will go into public domain.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,242
You're the one who asked for numbers. What the fuck is YOUR evidence? Show me the website with millions of individually downloaded dos games. Nobody searches for a rom site, searches for a particular system, finds Killer Instinct, downloads it, and then doesn't play it because they were just browsing. These downloads aren't the same as sales, but they are actual interest in the game.

Burden of proof is always on the person making the claim. If you had some game that was also made available for purchase to compare downloads vs. online purchases, there would be some evidence. I know that modern consoles have some older games available for online purchase, anyone have numbers on those?

You want to talk about Arcana (First only the list because it's an alphabetical list, not popularity, dumbass. And translations aren't even on that page, theres another 260 of those all on their own) how about why it has this:

Who said anything about popularity? You were the one saying that these were all, quote, "Work people only put in after the games were discontinued. And not minor mods either. We're not talking about adding in Macho Man dragons or putting the kids back in Fallout 2, we're talking about total translations or reworking entire game systems or writing entirely new plots and basically making a sequel within the same game engine.", which is a pretty big joke that anyone can see from even a casual perusal of the site. The site is LOADED with incredibly minor and mediocre mods.

http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/snes/arcana/characters.shtml

but not a single one of the Wizardry games does?

The game has... an online walkthrough? What? And Wizardry does have an entry at that site. In fact it has 13 entries.

You're just making excuses. If there really is some huge fanbase for dos games, prove it.

The fact that GoG exists is pretty good proof I think. You're the one trying to prove that older console games are orders of magnitude more popular. Somehow I doubt many console games would be breaking the 1M+ mark if they were on GoG.

If internet views mean nothing, what exactly do internet forum posts mean? Is our Betrayal at Krondor thread your proof of a huge dos game scene? Because you'd be crushed there too about a hundred times over.

They... also mean nothing? What point are you trying to make?
 
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Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,011
Estimated Top Downloadable Wii Titles by Revenue, 2009 (Price in USD; Japan and Korea excluded):
1. Super Mario Bros. 3 (Nintendo, NES) - $5,000,000 (price: $5.00)
2. World of Goo (2D Boy, WiiWare) - $4,800,000 ($15.00)
3. Super Mario Bros. (Nintendo, NES) - $3,300,000 ($5.00)
4. Super Mario World (Nintendo, SNES) - $2,900,000 ($8.00)
5. Super Mario 64 (Nintendo, N64) - $2,700,000 ($10.00)
6. Tetris Party (Hudson, WiiWare) - $2,600,000 ($12.00)
7. Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, the (Nintendo, N64) - $2,300,000 ($10.00)
8. Pokemon Rumble (Nintendo, WiiWare) - $2,200,000 ($15.00)
9. Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, the (Nintendo, N64) - $2,100,000 ($10.00)
10. My Pokemon Ranch (Nintendo, WiiWare) - $2,000,000 ($10.00)

Yeah I'm sure it'd be pretty much impossible for games like Chrono Trigger or Link to the Past to beat out Mario 64. No market there at all. What a waste putting those games up for sale and only earning 60 million a year.
 

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