Brutal Doom 64

[agentorange]

Brutal Doom created a perception of what Doom is to people who never played the original which at this point is impossible to correct.

You must continue circle strafing while reloading, and are left vulnerable in this state. Brutal Doom's gameplay demands more brainpower and skill, and that's primarily why I'll never touch vanilla again. Monsters that are competent threats is a big factor. Overall there's approximately twice as many variables the player has to consider.

Edit: To add to the reload thing, continual firepower is still an option. Instead of reloading, switch weapon. Switching to another weapon (which takes about 1 second, about the same time as it takes to cock the shotgun's pump) instead of reloading is often a good tactic when you're overwhelmed. Furthermore there are still weapons that do not reload, like the BFG, chaingun and super shotgun (or it does reload, and did vanilla, technically).

This strikes me as adding needless complexity, and complexity in and of itself doesn't make anything better. Same goes for the notion of how the game is more "challenging" or demands more skill because of these additions. You could also add realistic weapon recoil, fatigue, the ability to go prone and any number of other mechanics, which may make the game more challenging just by virtue of forcing the player to keep track of more elements, but as you do so the game gets further and further away from what made vanilla Doom great, primarily its tight, no excess design.

 

[nomask7]

I don't take issue with this, aside from the retarded third person fatalities. "oh noes you have to reload!" ...These people do realize you don't have to STOP and reload, right? And sometimes you can't. You must continue circle strafing while reloading, and are left vulnerable in this state. Brutal Doom's gameplay demands more brainpower and skill, and that's primarily why I'll never touch vanilla again. Monsters that are competent threats is a big factor. Overall there's approximately twice as many variables the player has to consider.

Edit: To add to the reload thing, continual firepower is still an option. Instead of reloading, switch weapon. Switching to another weapon (which takes about 1 second, about the same time as it takes to cock the shotgun's pump) instead of reloading is often a good tactic when you're overwhelmed. Furthermore there are still weapons that do not reload, like the BFG, chaingun and super shotgun (or it does reload, and did vanilla, technically).

The best moments of vanilla Doom have to do with hit-scan enemies surprising you and you having to react & kill them fast before they shoot. The best of the best of moments involve something like the beginning of Crusher from Doom II where shotgun guys keep appearing from behind corners or pillars one after the other while a skeleton is hunting you down, so you have to keep moving while having to be able to shoot the shotgun guys dead as fast as your own shotgun is able to.

Having to do some sort of five second reloads in the middle of it would not only spoil the excitement and rhythm of it, but would make it pretty much impossible to survive except by tanking hits (and if you happened to have low health when you began that level, you'd just be dead, period).

 

[Ash]

In my opinion the dark pillar room on the crusher is more exciting and engaging with Brutal. You can beat it without taking any damage, no tanking necessary. There are instances where tanking comes to light, usually with trap doors hiding large groups of hitscan enemies, but it's rarely really a problem.

As for "needless complexity", sorry, but Doom was too simple. I have no interest in running around autoaiming on the Z axis. BD is just as tight as vanilla anyway.

Edit: also, hitscan enemies no longer exist in BD, not technically. Bullets are now projectiles. Very fast ones, but they can be avoided.

 

[schru]

The game's level design is interesting, feels kind of like a missing link between Doom and Half-Life.

I would say that Duke Nukem 3D is the missing link, what with the realistic locations and showy set pieces with lots of explosions. Star Wars: Dark Forces had pretty natural-feeling levels too.

 

[nomask7]

Edit: also, hitscan enemies no longer exist in BD, not technically. Bullets are now projectiles. Very fast ones, but they can be avoided.

Boo!

 

[Excidium II]

kewl

 

[Ash]

Edit: also, hitscan enemies no longer exist in BD, not technically. Bullets are now projectiles. Very fast ones, but they can be avoided.

Boo!

Lol, booing the removal of hitscan. Hitscan being the bane of FPS as it encourages cover shooting rather than running around and skillful dodging of projectiles. Return to Castle Wolfenstien is a good example of excessive hitscan decline.

 

[Maggot]

The game's level design is interesting, feels kind of like a missing link between Doom and Half-Life.

I would say that Duke Nukem 3D is the missing link, what with the realistic locations and showy set pieces with lots of explosions. Star Wars: Dark Forces had pretty natural-feeling levels too.

I would extend that missing link to other Build Engine games like Blood where you see the start of the next level at the exit level zone and you see the end of the previous level at the start which gives some sort of continuity to all the levels in an episode.

 

[Ash]

Blood is awesome.

One day we'll get a modern singleplayer pureblood FPS (and TPS) that isn't shit.

 

[schru]

Lol, booing the removal of hitscan. Hitscan being the bane of FPS as it encourages cover shooting rather than running around and skillful dodging of projectiles. Return to Castle Wolfenstien is a good example of excessive hitscan decline.

I don't think hit-scan enemies are bad in and of themselves, as I don't think having real projectiles matters in more abstract games. However, they have to be utilized well and to a limited extent, as part of a wider variety of challenges. Aside of some old-school games that probably were never liked much, hit-scan did not become a problem until the late nineties when too many developers decided to go for more realistic style without good ideas about how it would work in practice (not exactly a realistic game, but Blood II is an example of this).

Also, I think the kind of cover-shooting that Doom's hit-scan enemies sometimes encouraged was perfectly in order and only added more flavour to the flow of the game.

I would extend that missing link to other Build Engine games like Blood where you see the start of the next level at the exit level zone and you see the end of the previous level at the start which gives some sort of continuity to all the levels in an episode.

Duke already had a bit of that in the first episode: the first to second level lift-ride, the submarine, the waste-tunnel from the flooded level to the mountains.

 

[nomask7]

Lol, booing the removal of hitscan. Hitscan being the bane of FPS as it encourages cover shooting rather than running around and skillful dodging of projectiles. Return to Castle Wolfenstien is a good example of excessive hitscan decline.

If I wanted to play a bullet hell game, there'd be hundreds of such games to play, no decline, just bullet hell. But then again, I prefer Doom.

The proper way to do hit-scan enemies is of course to use them for variety and also vary the circumstances and strategies you need for dealing with them, basically force the player in some situations to kill fast rather than take cover, and in some other situations to take cover, though not in the popamole manner necessarily.

Then the game has different scenarios and mixtures of them: (1) bullet hell, (2) taking cover, (3) kill fast. It's only popamole if the game is focussed on doing only (2) and only doing it in a certain kind of limited way.

For example, you can't compare the cover mechanics of the pillar room in Crusher with a slow-tempo popamole game. You're not just behind one cover, you need to do split second decisions about combining strategies (2) and (3).

Removing hit-scan enemies from THIS equation isn't incline, it's decline. Just because an internet meme says hit-scan enemies are decline doesn't make it so.

 

[Ash]

Except the execution of projectile bullets in BD doesn't change any of those dynamics. The bullet projectiles are so fast that they cannot be avoided in most instances, it just makes it so moving at high speeds you're less likely to take the full blast of a shotgun, and you have a short timeframe to get into cover when fired upon by a chaingunner at range, etc. The difference is extremely subtle, so much so that most players probably won't even notice. You're barking up the wrong tree, as to be expected from vanilla edgelords.

 

[nomask7]

Except the execution of projectile bullets in BD doesn't change any of those dynamics. The bullet projectiles are so fast that they cannot be avoided in most instances, it just makes it so moving at high speeds you're less likely to take the full blast of a shotgun, and you have a short timeframe to duck into cover when fired upon by a chaingunner at range, etc. The difference is extremely subtle, so much so that most players probably won't even notice. You're barking up the wrong tree, as to be expected from vanilla edgelords.

I'm not interested enough in Brutal Doom to have an educated opinion on it, but I do have an opinion on hit-scan enemies, and you've heard it now. Do with it what you will.

 

[Ash]

It's a very agreeable opinion, just the thing is for all intents and purposes projectile bullets in BD hardly act any different to hitscan, because they move so fast. It's a subtle improvement to how bullet-based weaponry function that every FPS could take notes from.

 

[skacky]

I didn't know this was its own game. Who's played it, and how does it compare to the originals?

I find it better than Doom 2 because it has far better level design overall with some crazy hacks to change layouts and give the illusion of rooms over rooms and bridges. It's a pretty dark game with a really creepy soundtrack and great sound effects (the same as the PSX version). A few Doom 2 monsters are missing (Arch-vile, Revenants and Chaingunners) and the game is proper hard on Watch Me Die. You should definitely play it if you get the chance. Oh and it has the best and most interesting Hell rendition of the whole series.

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

The game's level design is interesting, feels kind of like a missing link between Doom and Quake.

Fixed.

 

[Riskbreaker]

I didn't know this was its own game. Who's played it, and how does it compare to the originals?

'Tis the proper Doom 3.

 

[Shaewaroz]

Not quite on par with the other recent Doom remake:

 

[Severian Silk]

Video in OP looks good. I am not offended by this game.

Also, all post-SuperNES Nintendo games are automatically cult games.

 

[jcd]

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[Wilian]

Edit: also, hitscan enemies no longer exist in BD, not technically. Bullets are now projectiles. Very fast ones, but they can be avoided.

But you could alreadh do practically the same in base Doom. I dont remember the exact timing but the mobs always shoot at something like where you stood 0.5 seconds ago or so.

 

[Leechmonger]

A hitscan enemy ruined Descent 1.

Spoiler

 

[nomask7]

A hitscan enemy ruined Descent 1.

Spoiler

And too many health packs ruined Ultimate Doom - a game that needed more hitscan enemies not less so you would find use for those health packs. Of course millenial-tards don't understand attrition based gameplay, they just want to be awesome and untouchable, and hit-scan enemies ruin this little power-fantasy of theirs.

 

[Ash]

>complains about BD buffed hitscan enemies creating tanking scenarios (AKA "attrition-based gameplay")
>learns that BD no longer technically has hitscan
>Changes mind and claims Doom didn't have enough hitscan bullshit

Clearly, you will defy all logic and take any stance as long as it isn't one in favor of Brutal Doom. Generation Xtra retarded.

 

[Maggot]

>meme arrows
Unreal is a good example of an FPS with most, if not all enemies using projectile based weapons. Most of your weapons use projectiles too and the AI loves to dodge. I don't see what attrition based gameplay has to do with hitscanners anyways since Unreal accomplishes the same thing thanks to much better enemy AI.