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Building fantasy cultures underuses scientific knowledge - Discuss

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.

What have you got against people who are Tolkien or D&D fans having a product which appeals to them?

What have you got against me calling a duck, a duck?

I have the highest respect for Tolkien, as should be obvious. But assuming that you can take credit for what Tolkien achieved simply by lifting his setting, races, etc. and making minor modifications, is absurd. Tolkien inspired works only work because their audience can draw from the Tolkien legacy that which is lacking in the work itself. Thus, games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap can depend on the audience's familiarity with these archetypes from Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons. It's world building through reference, not craft.

To actually create a world worth referencing is a monumental task, and a different effort altogether.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.

I don't think you realize just how Western Japan is when compared to other East Asian countries, and how actively and aggressively they attempted to emulate the West, to the extent of declaring that they were leaving Asia.

And yet, Japan is distinct in every practical way.

Define "western".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
 
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.

What have you got against people who are Tolkien or D&D fans having a product which appeals to them?

What have you got against me calling a duck, a duck?

I have the highest respect for Tolkien, as should be obvious. But assuming that you can take credit for what Tolkien achieved simply by lifting his setting, races, etc. and making minor modifications, is absurd. Tolkien inspired works only work because their audience can draw from the Tolkien legacy that which is lacking in the work itself. Thus, games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap can depend on the audience's familiarity with these archetypes from Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons. It's world building through reference, not craft.

To actually create a world worth referencing is a monumental task, and a different effort altogether.

Why are you attacking people for being ducks?

If you don't like Tolkien or D&D inspired fantasy games then don't play them, there's plenty of other choices around.

And, again, you don't mention any examples, just hyperbolic "games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap" is what fucking games exactly?
 
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.

I don't think you realize just how Western Japan is when compared to other East Asian countries, and how actively and aggressively they attempted to emulate the West, to the extent of declaring that they were leaving Asia.

And yet, Japan is distinct in every practical way.

Define "western".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

So basically everything in the world at some point except China. Cool, glad you cleared that one up. Nope, can't imagine why most games are influenced by most people in the world. Maybe when China rules the world we can all bitch about tired old generic Chinese stereotypes?
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.

I don't think you realize just how Western Japan is when compared to other East Asian countries, and how actively and aggressively they attempted to emulate the West, to the extent of declaring that they were leaving Asia.

And yet, Japan is distinct in every practical way.

Define "western".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

So basically everything in the world at some point except China. Cool, glad you cleared that one up. Nope, can't imagine why most games are influenced by most people in the world. Maybe when China rules the world we can all bitch about tired old generic Chinese stereotypes?

Even the link doesn't agree with your description:

Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png
 
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.

I don't think you realize just how Western Japan is when compared to other East Asian countries, and how actively and aggressively they attempted to emulate the West, to the extent of declaring that they were leaving Asia.

And yet, Japan is distinct in every practical way.

Define "western".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

So basically everything in the world at some point except China. Cool, glad you cleared that one up. Nope, can't imagine why most games are influenced by most people in the world. Maybe when China rules the world we can all bitch about tired old generic Chinese stereotypes?

Even the link doesn't agree with your description:

Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png

I see you like pretty pictures but are crap at reading, no wonder you're just one long stream of bullshit. Here, READ the text which is RIGHT FUCKING NEXT TO that pretty picture:

The West as a geographical area is unclear and undefined. More often a country's ideology is what will be used to categorize it as a Western society. There is some disagreement about what nations should or should not be included in the category, and at what times. Many parts of the Eastern Roman Empire are considered Western today but were Eastern in the past. Geographically, the "West" of today would include Europe (especially the European Union countries) together with extra-European territories belonging to the English-speaking world, as well as the Hispanidad, the Lusosphere or the Francophonie in the wider context. Since the context is highly biased and context-dependent, there is no agreed definition what the "West" is.
 

pomenitul

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
979
Location
μεταβολή
To be fair, I'd wager most people want both the comfortable trappings of familiarity and a twist on their beloved, time-tested formula. For instance, I'm fond of narrative arcs that are mostly recognizable at the outset (aside from a keenly concealed bit of foreshadowing or two) but that slowly, inexorably, imperceptibly slide into a wholly different register. By the time the audience realizes what happened, the shift has already, irrevocably taken place and we have no choice but to adapt to this new tone – an exciting aesthetic experience, when done right.

I would ask for some examples of what you have described but then I realized that merely naming them would be a spoiler.

Somewhat tellingly, the first example that springs to mind isn't a video game at all but David Lynch's Inland Empire. Structurally speaking, it starts off with a violently disconcerting prelude before it eases you into a more-or-less recognizable narrative mode which is given time to breathe and take root. Once the familiar elements are in place, every structural pretence is provocatively shattered yet the resulting fragments reflect and refract the broken body whence they came, lingering between continuity and discontinuity, coherence and incoherence. As such, they are neither real nor surreal, neither nonsensical nor wholly imbued with sense, and all the more fascinating for it.

There are less extremes takes on this particular structure, of course, but I'd argue this is one of its purest avatars. It's all a rhythmic play on expectation: first you bewilder then you provide semantic solace then you take the preceding semblance of meaning apart until it glows with a poetry of its own. Easier said than done, though.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.
You do know that Tokien,D&D,Warhammer and many others are imitation of medieval and ancient European history?
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
Real life is the shittiest RPG ever made, and we should do well to avoid the failures of its design.
That is because you can't learn fireball and ice storm in real live,still you can go out swinging a two-handed axe.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.

What have you got against people who are Tolkien or D&D fans having a product which appeals to them?

What have you got against me calling a duck, a duck?

I have the highest respect for Tolkien, as should be obvious. But assuming that you can take credit for what Tolkien achieved simply by lifting his setting, races, etc. and making minor modifications, is absurd. Tolkien inspired works only work because their audience can draw from the Tolkien legacy that which is lacking in the work itself. Thus, games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap can depend on the audience's familiarity with these archetypes from Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons. It's world building through reference, not craft.

To actually create a world worth referencing is a monumental task, and a different effort altogether.

Why are you attacking people for being ducks?

If you don't like Tolkien or D&D inspired fantasy games then don't play them, there's plenty of other choices around.

And, again, you don't mention any examples, just hyperbolic "games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap" is what fucking games exactly?

I do like Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons inspired high fantasy. That doesn't justify pretending most CRPG developers are being original when they copy and rely on the same high fantasy cliches. Examples are plentiful - Pillars of Eternity's elves, dwarves, etc., Divine Divinity Original Sin's orcs, dwarves, goblins, etc.

and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.

I don't think you realize just how Western Japan is when compared to other East Asian countries, and how actively and aggressively they attempted to emulate the West, to the extent of declaring that they were leaving Asia.

And yet, Japan is distinct in every practical way.

Define "western".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

So basically everything in the world at some point except China. Cool, glad you cleared that one up. Nope, can't imagine why most games are influenced by most people in the world. Maybe when China rules the world we can all bitch about tired old generic Chinese stereotypes?

Even the link doesn't agree with your description:

Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png

I see you like pretty pictures but are crap at reading, no wonder you're just one long stream of bullshit. Here, READ the text which is RIGHT FUCKING NEXT TO that pretty picture:

The West as a geographical area is unclear and undefined. More often a country's ideology is what will be used to categorize it as a Western society. There is some disagreement about what nations should or should not be included in the category, and at what times. Many parts of the Eastern Roman Empire are considered Western today but were Eastern in the past. Geographically, the "West" of today would include Europe (especially the European Union countries) together with extra-European territories belonging to the English-speaking world, as well as the Hispanidad, the Lusosphere or the Francophonie in the wider context. Since the context is highly biased and context-dependent, there is no agreed definition what the "West" is.

You should read what you quote.
 

*-*/\--/\~

Cipher
Joined
Jul 10, 2014
Messages
909
Why would Codexers complain about real life RPG - it's long, hard, ironman mode, no quest compass, no level scaling, limited inventory, huge world... isn't that the way you want it? :D
 
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.

What have you got against people who are Tolkien or D&D fans having a product which appeals to them?

What have you got against me calling a duck, a duck?

I have the highest respect for Tolkien, as should be obvious. But assuming that you can take credit for what Tolkien achieved simply by lifting his setting, races, etc. and making minor modifications, is absurd. Tolkien inspired works only work because their audience can draw from the Tolkien legacy that which is lacking in the work itself. Thus, games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap can depend on the audience's familiarity with these archetypes from Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons. It's world building through reference, not craft.

To actually create a world worth referencing is a monumental task, and a different effort altogether.

Why are you attacking people for being ducks?

If you don't like Tolkien or D&D inspired fantasy games then don't play them, there's plenty of other choices around.

And, again, you don't mention any examples, just hyperbolic "games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap" is what fucking games exactly?

I do like Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons inspired high fantasy. That doesn't justify pretending most CRPG developers are being original when they copy and rely on the same high fantasy cliches. Examples are plentiful - Pillars of Eternity's elves, Divine Divinity Original Sin's orcs, dwarves, goblins, etc.,
and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.

I don't think you realize just how Western Japan is when compared to other East Asian countries, and how actively and aggressively they attempted to emulate the West, to the extent of declaring that they were leaving Asia.

And yet, Japan is distinct in every practical way.

Define "western".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

So basically everything in the world at some point except China. Cool, glad you cleared that one up. Nope, can't imagine why most games are influenced by most people in the world. Maybe when China rules the world we can all bitch about tired old generic Chinese stereotypes?

Even the link doesn't agree with your description:

Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png

I see you like pretty pictures but are crap at reading, no wonder you're just one long stream of bullshit. Here, READ the text which is RIGHT FUCKING NEXT TO that pretty picture:

The West as a geographical area is unclear and undefined. More often a country's ideology is what will be used to categorize it as a Western society. There is some disagreement about what nations should or should not be included in the category, and at what times. Many parts of the Eastern Roman Empire are considered Western today but were Eastern in the past. Geographically, the "West" of today would include Europe (especially the European Union countries) together with extra-European territories belonging to the English-speaking world, as well as the Hispanidad, the Lusosphere or the Francophonie in the wider context. Since the context is highly biased and context-dependent, there is no agreed definition what the "West" is.

You should read what you quote.

Sure, I'll even spell it out for you:

THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF WHAT THE "WEST" IS.

Got it yet?

You posted your cherry picked example of what you personally think = "western" from a massive article that supposedly told you what "western" is, but the article states quite clearly and unequvocably that there is no agreement on what "western" is. Good god you're a agenda'd prick.

Oh, and what were your examples again? "Examples are plentiful - Pillars of Eternity's elves, Divine Divinity Original Sin", oh, right, a spiritual successor to a D&D game and a game that's a well known D&D bootleg. Wow, such elaboration, you're really nailing the whole spectrum of the genre with those two examples, you're a veritable expert on the exact state of the entire genre you are!
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.
You do know that Tokien,D&D,Warhammer and many others are imitation of medieval and ancient European history?

It's not about finding the oldest cultural precedent, but the most immediate and significant. European mythology flows into CRPGs through the filter of Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons. Elves in European mythology weren't a different race - they were fairies. Magic users in European history didn't sling fireballs at each other - they worked their sorcery through subtle methods. There was no concept of a Cleric class in medieval Europe, who fought and healed at the same time. Rogues weren't a distinct archetype - Conan was described as a thief, for example. Rangers didn't exist. Orcs didn't exist. Adventuring parties of distinctive classes didn't exist. The world as being divided into civilizations of elves, dwarves, etc. didn't exist.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.

What have you got against people who are Tolkien or D&D fans having a product which appeals to them?

What have you got against me calling a duck, a duck?

I have the highest respect for Tolkien, as should be obvious. But assuming that you can take credit for what Tolkien achieved simply by lifting his setting, races, etc. and making minor modifications, is absurd. Tolkien inspired works only work because their audience can draw from the Tolkien legacy that which is lacking in the work itself. Thus, games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap can depend on the audience's familiarity with these archetypes from Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons. It's world building through reference, not craft.

To actually create a world worth referencing is a monumental task, and a different effort altogether.

Why are you attacking people for being ducks?

If you don't like Tolkien or D&D inspired fantasy games then don't play them, there's plenty of other choices around.

And, again, you don't mention any examples, just hyperbolic "games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap" is what fucking games exactly?

I do like Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons inspired high fantasy. That doesn't justify pretending most CRPG developers are being original when they copy and rely on the same high fantasy cliches. Examples are plentiful - Pillars of Eternity's elves, Divine Divinity Original Sin's orcs, dwarves, goblins, etc.,
and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.

I don't think you realize just how Western Japan is when compared to other East Asian countries, and how actively and aggressively they attempted to emulate the West, to the extent of declaring that they were leaving Asia.

And yet, Japan is distinct in every practical way.

Define "western".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

So basically everything in the world at some point except China. Cool, glad you cleared that one up. Nope, can't imagine why most games are influenced by most people in the world. Maybe when China rules the world we can all bitch about tired old generic Chinese stereotypes?

Even the link doesn't agree with your description:

Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png

I see you like pretty pictures but are crap at reading, no wonder you're just one long stream of bullshit. Here, READ the text which is RIGHT FUCKING NEXT TO that pretty picture:

The West as a geographical area is unclear and undefined. More often a country's ideology is what will be used to categorize it as a Western society. There is some disagreement about what nations should or should not be included in the category, and at what times. Many parts of the Eastern Roman Empire are considered Western today but were Eastern in the past. Geographically, the "West" of today would include Europe (especially the European Union countries) together with extra-European territories belonging to the English-speaking world, as well as the Hispanidad, the Lusosphere or the Francophonie in the wider context. Since the context is highly biased and context-dependent, there is no agreed definition what the "West" is.

You should read what you quote.

Sure, I'll even spell it out for you:

THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF WHAT THE "WEST" IS.

Got it yet?

You posted your cherry picked example of what you personally think = "western" from a massive article that supposedly told you what "western" is, but the article states quite clearly and unequvocably that there is no agreement on what "western" is. Good god you're a agenda'd prick.

Oh, and what were your examples again? "Examples are plentiful - Pillars of Eternity's elves, Divine Divinity Original Sin", oh, right, a spiritual successor to a D&D game and a game that's a well known D&D bootleg. Wow, such elaboration, you're really nailing the whole spectrum of the genre with those two examples, you're a veritable expert on the exact state of the entire genre you are!

An inane question deserves an insane response. I'm not going to describe to you what the West stands for on a message board. That's a topic fit for entire books on Western civilization and culture. Yes, there is disagreement on what the West stands for. No, there isn't any disagreement on Japan being heavily influenced by the West. I'm not going to write a fucking paper for you to prove a widely accepted idea.
 
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.
You do know that Tokien,D&D,Warhammer and many others are imitation of medieval and ancient European history?

It's not about finding the oldest cultural precedent, but the most immediate and significant. European mythology flows into CRPGs through the filter of Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons. Elves in European mythology weren't a different race - they were fairies. Magic users in European history didn't sling fireballs at each other - they worked their sorcery through subtle methods. There was no concept of a Cleric class in medieval Europe, who fought and healed at the same time. Rogues weren't a distinct archetype - Conan was described as a thief, for example. Rangers didn't exist. Orcs didn't exist. Adventuring parties of distinctive classes didn't exist. The physical world as being divided into civilizations of elves, dwarves, etc. didn't exist.

You having fun down there?

Vykopat-kolodets-300x217.jpg
 
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.

What have you got against people who are Tolkien or D&D fans having a product which appeals to them?

What have you got against me calling a duck, a duck?

I have the highest respect for Tolkien, as should be obvious. But assuming that you can take credit for what Tolkien achieved simply by lifting his setting, races, etc. and making minor modifications, is absurd. Tolkien inspired works only work because their audience can draw from the Tolkien legacy that which is lacking in the work itself. Thus, games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap can depend on the audience's familiarity with these archetypes from Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons. It's world building through reference, not craft.

To actually create a world worth referencing is a monumental task, and a different effort altogether.

Why are you attacking people for being ducks?

If you don't like Tolkien or D&D inspired fantasy games then don't play them, there's plenty of other choices around.

And, again, you don't mention any examples, just hyperbolic "games that do not bother to explain elves, dwarves, etc. beyond a few paragraphs of generic crap" is what fucking games exactly?

I do like Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons inspired high fantasy. That doesn't justify pretending most CRPG developers are being original when they copy and rely on the same high fantasy cliches. Examples are plentiful - Pillars of Eternity's elves, Divine Divinity Original Sin's orcs, dwarves, goblins, etc.,
and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.

I don't think you realize just how Western Japan is when compared to other East Asian countries, and how actively and aggressively they attempted to emulate the West, to the extent of declaring that they were leaving Asia.

And yet, Japan is distinct in every practical way.

Define "western".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

So basically everything in the world at some point except China. Cool, glad you cleared that one up. Nope, can't imagine why most games are influenced by most people in the world. Maybe when China rules the world we can all bitch about tired old generic Chinese stereotypes?

Even the link doesn't agree with your description:

Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png

I see you like pretty pictures but are crap at reading, no wonder you're just one long stream of bullshit. Here, READ the text which is RIGHT FUCKING NEXT TO that pretty picture:

The West as a geographical area is unclear and undefined. More often a country's ideology is what will be used to categorize it as a Western society. There is some disagreement about what nations should or should not be included in the category, and at what times. Many parts of the Eastern Roman Empire are considered Western today but were Eastern in the past. Geographically, the "West" of today would include Europe (especially the European Union countries) together with extra-European territories belonging to the English-speaking world, as well as the Hispanidad, the Lusosphere or the Francophonie in the wider context. Since the context is highly biased and context-dependent, there is no agreed definition what the "West" is.

You should read what you quote.

Sure, I'll even spell it out for you:

THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF WHAT THE "WEST" IS.

Got it yet?

You posted your cherry picked example of what you personally think = "western" from a massive article that supposedly told you what "western" is, but the article states quite clearly and unequvocably that there is no agreement on what "western" is. Good god you're a agenda'd prick.

Oh, and what were your examples again? "Examples are plentiful - Pillars of Eternity's elves, Divine Divinity Original Sin", oh, right, a spiritual successor to a D&D game and a game that's a well known D&D bootleg. Wow, such elaboration, you're really nailing the whole spectrum of the genre with those two examples, you're a veritable expert on the exact state of the entire genre you are!

An inane question deserves an insane response. I'm not going to describe to you what the West stands for on a message board. That's a topic fit for entire books on Western civilization and culture. Yes, there is disagreement on what the West stands for. No, there isn't any disagreement on Japan being heavily influenced by the West. I'm not going to write a fucking paper for you to prove a widely accepted idea.

Why does it fucking matter who influences who?

The english are reknown for tea drinking, something they inherited from eastern culture. Thats what happens when you pull your head out ur ass, everything is related to everything else. The 'west' has easternised while the 'east' has westernised. What the fuck do you expect? What the fuck do you want?
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
You're so off topic I can't even be bothered to respond any more. When did I say I have a problem with Japan being influenced by the West or vice versa? Go troll elsewhere.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
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Messages
7,407
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.
You do know that Tokien,D&D,Warhammer and many others are imitation of medieval and ancient European history?

It's not about finding the oldest cultural precedent, but the most immediate and significant. European mythology flows into CRPGs through the filter of Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons. Elves in European mythology weren't a different race - they were fairies. Magic users in European history didn't sling fireballs at each other - they worked their sorcery through subtle methods. There was no concept of a Cleric class in medieval Europe, who fought and healed at the same time. Rogues weren't a distinct archetype - Conan was described as a thief, for example. Rangers didn't exist. Orcs didn't exist. Adventuring parties of distinctive classes didn't exist. The world as being divided into civilizations of elves, dwarves, etc. didn't exist.

c1f5456770ded819907dd53e6f71bb47.jpg
 
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IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
You're so off topic I can't even be bothered to respond any more. When did I say I have a problem with Japan being influenced by the West or vice versa? Go troll elsewhere.

I guess you make it hard to understand what your point is. You're upset that a D&D spiritual successor game and a renown D&D bootleg franchise are too much like D&D?
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
You're so off topic I can't even be bothered to respond any more. When did I say I have a problem with Japan being influenced by the West or vice versa? Go troll elsewhere.

I guess you make it hard to understand what your point is. You're upset that a D&D spiritual successor game and a renown D&D bootleg franchise are too much like D&D?

Is reading that hard?

This is what I was responding to:

Isn't the derivative feeling that prevails over most fantasy settings in RPGs caused mostly by lack of education that could easily be remedied (by reading, or hiring consultants)? Wouldn't even the pitiful casual "I want to ride a horse and blow things up" experience benefit a little from better developed fantasy settings?

I won't repeat the details of my argument, but the bottom line is that developing coherent and believable fantasy settings is not nearly as simple as reading more and hiring consultants. There is an immense difference in capability between Tolkien and his imitators today, and what took Tolkien a life time to achieve cannot be achieved by a committee of average or even above average video game writers in two to three years.

CRPG settings are derivative as a matter of necessity. It takes way too much time, effort, and talent to create an original fantasy setting that does not rely on an existing body of references. Even the Witcher franchise is no exception, since the developer didn't create the setting but lifted it from a series of books from Poland's equivalent to Tolkien. It doesn't matter what the market demands when the supply doesn't exist.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.
You do know that Tokien,D&D,Warhammer and many others are imitation of medieval and ancient European history?

It's not about finding the oldest cultural precedent, but the most immediate and significant. European mythology flows into CRPGs through the filter of Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons. Elves in European mythology weren't a different race - they were fairies. Magic users in European history didn't sling fireballs at each other - they worked their sorcery through subtle methods. There was no concept of a Cleric class in medieval Europe, who fought and healed at the same time. Rogues weren't a distinct archetype - Conan was described as a thief, for example. Rangers didn't exist. Orcs didn't exist. Adventuring parties of distinctive classes didn't exist. The world as being divided into civilizations of elves, dwarves, etc. didn't exist.
LoL are you the epiphany of narrowminded or what?!I am baffled by how literal you take things.Orks,elfs,goblins and all other things exist in European folklore,even the dark elfs.Authors and creators frequently make allegory of real moments in history.For example the orks Warhammer represent the Turkish horde attacking the Empire aka Holly Roman Empire.If you can't see the obvious source of all those fictional works,then you need a better education.For fuck sake even the map of warhammer is nearly identical to the real world.
Warhammer_World_Map.JPG
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,759
Aoskar's temple int really a good example o verisimilitude in Torment, though I don't think anyones ever been stupid enough to say Torments not detailed enough, as its fairly poorly fleshed out like they were meaning to add faction that makes a homebase there an decided not to at some point in development.
HBiDOaZ.png


Only a few of the Planescape setting's factions appeared in Planescape: Torment. :M
 

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