Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[Lacrymas]

When MCA talks about "narrative risks", I believe that he's referring to stories that aren't afraid to totally fuck with the setting. In the past he's also said that JRPGs are good at this. If you consider that he's somebody who has spent most of his career working on Western RPG settings that typically have a certain "stasis" they must adhere to, it's understandable. (Now think of Lonesome Road.)

How are TWD or Bioshock Infinite fucking with their settings? TWD is a straight up zombie survival scenario, while Infinite is simply incoherent rambling.

 

[Fairfax]

In the past he's said JRPGs are also good at this.

Yeah, he says the same thing in the interview and uses the FF6 example again (world blows up, etc). I didn't include it because I assume most people in this thread have seen him talk about that before, but I guess I should've.

People read too much into the stuff he praises. He even did a presentation on how there's always something good about shitty stuff, including Twilight, "I, Frankenstein", Cube and so forth.

Bioshock Infinite and The Walking Dead are examples of narrative risks

The use of underage as love interests.

Please provide evidence for this in The Walking Dead.

He didn't explain how Bioshock Infinite took risks, but he said TWD's ending was "brave".

 

[pomenitul]

- English major gave him exposure to books he doesn't think he would've read otherwise, such as Heart of Darkness. Didn't like Heart of Darkness the first time he read it, but in the second time it clicked.

Alas that even MCA appears to have read so little 'demanding' literature. As a general rule, vidya writers would do well to 1) better acquaint themselves with the Western Canon; 2) properly engage with modernist prose and its precipitates; 3) study poetry (including that of the 'experimental' variety), with the proviso that all of these steps are equally necessary if true incline is to be achieved. Of course, none of this will ever happen, because CRPG fiction as a 'literary' genre has yet to crawl out of its Procrustean bed.

 

[Lacrymas]

He didn't explain how Bioshock Infinite took risks, but he said TWD's ending was "brave".

Killing off your protagonist? Wow, this has never been done before in the history of ever. So brave. Stunning and brave.

Spoiler

Les Misérables, Jesus Christ, Don Giovanni, basically any tragedy by Shakespeare, The Hunchback of Notre-Dame, The Great Gatsby, The Picture of Dorian Grey, Frankenstein; or, the Modern Prometheus, Moby-Dick, Doctor Faustus etc. etc. ad infinitum

 

[Stainless Veteran]

He didn't explain how Bioshock Infinite took risks, but he said TWD's ending was "brave".

Killing off your protagonist? Wow, this has never been done before in the history of ever. So brave. Stunning and brave.

Spoiler

Les Misérables, Jesus Christ, Don Giovanni, basically any tragedy by Shakespeare, The Hunchback of Notre-Dame, The Great Gatsby, The Picture of Dorian Grey, Frankenstein; or, the Modern Prometheus, Moby-Dick, Doctor Faustus etc. etc. ad infinitum

And Fallout 3.

 

[Fairfax]

He didn't explain how Bioshock Infinite took risks, but he said TWD's ending was "brave".

Killing off your protagonist? Wow, this has never been done before in the history of ever. So brave. Stunning and brave.

Spoiler

Les Misérables, Jesus Christ, Don Giovanni, basically any tragedy by Shakespeare, The Hunchback of Notre-Dame, The Great Gatsby, The Picture of Dorian Grey, Frankenstein; or, the Modern Prometheus, Moby-Dick, Doctor Faustus etc. etc. ad infinitum

He was talking within the context of western games.

 

[Lacrymas]

He was talking within the context of western games.

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare , Bioshock 2, Red Dead Redemption, L.A. Noire, F.E.A.R 2, Mafia, Dreamfall, Fallout 3, like Stainless Veteran mentioned, etc. and these are only AAA to semi-AAA ones.

 

[Roguey]

Planescape Torment...?

 

[Fairfax]

He was talking within the context of western games.

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare , Bioshock 2, Red Dead Redemption, L.A. Noire, F.E.A.R 2, Mafia, Dreamfall, Fallout 3, like Stainless Veteran mentioned, etc. and these are only AAA to semi-AAA ones.

I was just clarifying.

In his defense, perhaps he didn't mean just killing the protagonist, but also replacing him with a child. In that case, I'd agree that it was risky. It was risky enough that it actually hurt the series, as season 2 sold slightly more than half of what season 1 did.

 

[Quillon]

just killing the protagonist, but also replacing him with a child.

Thought that was a dumb move with the intention of milking the franchise cos everyone loves that little girl(clementine?), right? Haven't played season 2 tho, don't know how it turned out.

Also black people don't survive very long in zombie movies, it was nothing new

 

[Lacrymas]

I was just clarifying.

In his defense, perhaps he didn't mean just killing the protagonist, but also replacing him with a child. In that case, I'd agree that it was risky. It was risky enough that it actually hurt the series, as season 2 sold slightly more than half of what season 1 did.

He has to clarify these things, not just throw names around and vagues descriptions like "the ending is brave". Besides, Clementine is the protagonist of season 2, maybe you play as her for the last 3 minutes of season 1, I don't remember, but still ;d

 

[PlanHex]

Bioshock Infinite and The Walking Dead are examples of narrative risks

The use of underage as love interests.

Please provide evidence for this in The Walking Dead.

 

[Fairfax]

just killing the protagonist, but also replacing him with a child.

Thought that was a dumb move with the intention of milking the franchise cos everyone loves that little girl(clementine?), right? Haven't played season 2 tho, don't know how it turned out.

Also black people don't survive very long in zombie movies, it was nothing new

I didn't play season 2 either, but I get the impression the people who loved her that much were just a vocal minority. The Steamspy numbers speak volumes:

The Walking Dead: 2,214,450
The Walking Dead: Season Two: 1,213,821
The Walking Dead: Michonne: 162,607
The Walking Dead: A New Frontier: 122,467

I was just clarifying.

In his defense, perhaps he didn't mean just killing the protagonist, but also replacing him with a child. In that case, I'd agree that it was risky. It was risky enough that it actually hurt the series, as season 2 sold slightly more than half of what season 1 did.

He has to clarify these things, not just throw names around and vagues descriptions like "the ending is brave". Besides, Clementine is the protagonist of season 2, maybe you play as her for the last 3 minutes of season 1, I don't remember, but still ;d

When interviewees don't elaborate on something relevant and/or interesting, it's the interviewer's job to ask. Instead the guy said he didn't play TWD and mentioned how much he liked The Wolf Among Us. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And yes, she's the protagonist in season 2, but that's my point. They took a risk and it didn't pay off, hence the major drop in sales. Now season 3 even has a different protagonist.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

just killing the protagonist, but also replacing him with a child.

Thought that was a dumb move with the intention of milking the franchise cos everyone loves that little girl(clementine?), right? Haven't played season 2 tho, don't know how it turned out.

Also black people don't survive very long in zombie movies, it was nothing new

I didn't play season 2 either, but I get the impression the people who loved her that much were just a vocal minority. The Steamspy numbers speak volumes:

The Walking Dead: 2,214,450
The Walking Dead: Season Two: 1,213,821
The Walking Dead: Michonne: 162,607
The Walking Dead: A New Frontier: 122,467

The gaming websites gave the first season a massive amount of coverage but almost ignored Season 2 entirely, so that explains the lower figures for Season 2.

Michonne was absolute garbage though. Glad to see it got low figures - it deserved them.

New Frontier is Season 3, which has only just started.

 

[Gunnar]

just killing the protagonist, but also replacing him with a child.

Thought that was a dumb move with the intention of milking the franchise cos everyone loves that little girl(clementine?), right? Haven't played season 2 tho, don't know how it turned out.

Also black people don't survive very long in zombie movies, it was nothing new

I didn't play season 2 either, but I get the impression the people who loved her that much were just a vocal minority. The Steamspy numbers speak volumes:

The Walking Dead: 2,214,450
The Walking Dead: Season Two: 1,213,821
The Walking Dead: Michonne: 162,607
The Walking Dead: A New Frontier: 122,467

I was just clarifying.

In his defense, perhaps he didn't mean just killing the protagonist, but also replacing him with a child. In that case, I'd agree that it was risky. It was risky enough that it actually hurt the series, as season 2 sold slightly more than half of what season 1 did.

He has to clarify these things, not just throw names around and vagues descriptions like "the ending is brave". Besides, Clementine is the protagonist of season 2, maybe you play as her for the last 3 minutes of season 1, I don't remember, but still ;d

When interviewees don't elaborate on something relevant and/or interesting, it's the interviewer's job to ask. Instead the guy said he didn't play TWD and mentioned how much he liked The Wolf Among Us. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And yes, she's the protagonist in season 2, but that's my point. They took a risk and it didn't pay off, hence the major drop in sales. Now season 3 even has a different protagonist.

I played TWD and TWD season 2. I will never touch another Telltale game again after that, because they decided making games with actual gameplay is too much trouble, nothing to do with Clementine.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

When interviewees don't elaborate on something relevant and/or interesting, it's the interviewer's job to ask. Instead the guy said he didn't play TWD and mentioned how much he liked The Wolf Among Us. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And yes, she's the protagonist in season 2, but that's my point. They took a risk and it didn't pay off, hence the major drop in sales. Now season 3 even has a different protagonist.

Does it now? I was under impression that Clementine was still one of the protags, given the recent John Walker histrionics about "torture porn".

Your feelings about the previous two seasons of The Walking Dead video game may be different than mine, and I suspect you can discern the usefulness of my review of the first two episodes of the third season by how far apart we are. I think I can summarise the previous runs with the phrase, “Little girl torture simulator”. Which is, if anything, a generous summation of one of the dreariest, least involved, interminably slow and hackneyed games I’ve ever struggled through.

Zombie stories are obviously woefully played out, and The Walking Dead offers the least imaginative portrayal of the form. Even the most patient of diehards are giving up on the ridiculous TV interpretation of the source comic, and it seems the last drips of potential have been wrung dry from the entire genre, with only outliers like Zombieland managing to find something of a fun last gasp. No one has the courage/imagination to do anything interesting with the theme (I think 2006’s okay-ish Fido was the last time anyone even tried), instead inevitably resorting to the same hoary old tropes of “band of people where one’s a wrong-un, one is secretly bit!”. Oh good GRIEF is The Walking Dead video game trapped in that dreary mire.

For two seasons they’ve had no story to tell other than, “Clementine goes through unimaginable shit on a daily basis, and everyone around gruesomely dies in front of her.” The tragedy being there seems to be the belief that this in itself is interesting or novel. “Look, she’s suffering so much! You think it’s going to get better, but no, it’s going to get worse!” No, we know it’s going to get worse. It’s literally the only thing that ever happens in any of the games, from the micro level of every tiny action inevitably ending in her falling over, to the macro level of absolutely everyone she knows fighting and dying. And Clementine’s character advances not a jot. She’s nothing, she’s an empty shell for the player to watch get tortured, and then have her say, “But I’m a little girl” for the 900th time. I empathise with her character’s plight not at the hands of the zombies, but at the hands of the writers. At this point it would be a shocking surprise twist if they didn’t murder a main character while she stared.

Where the series leaves me behind is in this genuinely fetishistic obsession with having you watch Clementine watch utter horror. Again, it’s the impression that this of itself is believed to be a bold or interesting narrative statement that grates so hard, where we’re supposed to be emotionally bowled over by their courageous portrayal of a child’s suffering. Yeah, maybe the first time. But after ten episodes of farcical cruelty it just became revolting. Only because the games were so boring, uninvolved and repetitive did I struggle to find the energy to care, but on some barely-interested level I worried about the minds that felt the need to just keep repeating the same theme.

[src]

 

[Azarkon]

Bioshock Infinite's story most reminded me of Planescape: Torment, so it's no surprise that Avellone liked it. In terms of risks, it should be mentioned that the player character doesn't "sacrifice" himself, like you would expect from a standard story in which the hero dies - he's killed by his daughter, who he was trying to protect throughout the game. When I played through it I always thought it was a cold ending, so in that sense, it was a risk.

The other risk the game took was in having a complicated narrative that required most people going online to understand. Not the first to do so, but it is still a risk most Western games today wouldn't take.

 

[Fairfax]

The gaming websites gave the first season a massive amount of coverage but almost ignored Season 2 entirely, so that explains the lower figures for Season 2.

People who played season 1 are aware of the sequels by now, but a lot of them don't care enough to buy them.

When interviewees don't elaborate on something relevant and/or interesting, it's the interviewer's job to ask. Instead the guy said he didn't play TWD and mentioned how much he liked The Wolf Among Us. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And yes, she's the protagonist in season 2, but that's my point. They took a risk and it didn't pay off, hence the major drop in sales. Now season 3 even has a different protagonist.

Does it now? I was under impression that Clementine was still one of the protags, given the recent John Walker histrionics about "torture porn".

Your feelings about the previous two seasons of The Walking Dead video game may be different than mine, and I suspect you can discern the usefulness of my review of the first two episodes of the third season by how far apart we are. I think I can summarise the previous runs with the phrase, “Little girl torture simulator”. Which is, if anything, a generous summation of one of the dreariest, least involved, interminably slow and hackneyed games I’ve ever struggled through.

Zombie stories are obviously woefully played out, and The Walking Dead offers the least imaginative portrayal of the form. Even the most patient of diehards are giving up on the ridiculous TV interpretation of the source comic, and it seems the last drips of potential have been wrung dry from the entire genre, with only outliers like Zombieland managing to find something of a fun last gasp. No one has the courage/imagination to do anything interesting with the theme (I think 2006’s okay-ish Fido was the last time anyone even tried), instead inevitably resorting to the same hoary old tropes of “band of people where one’s a wrong-un, one is secretly bit!”. Oh good GRIEF is The Walking Dead video game trapped in that dreary mire.

For two seasons they’ve had no story to tell other than, “Clementine goes through unimaginable shit on a daily basis, and everyone around gruesomely dies in front of her.” The tragedy being there seems to be the belief that this in itself is interesting or novel. “Look, she’s suffering so much! You think it’s going to get better, but no, it’s going to get worse!” No, we know it’s going to get worse. It’s literally the only thing that ever happens in any of the games, from the micro level of every tiny action inevitably ending in her falling over, to the macro level of absolutely everyone she knows fighting and dying. And Clementine’s character advances not a jot. She’s nothing, she’s an empty shell for the player to watch get tortured, and then have her say, “But I’m a little girl” for the 900th time. I empathise with her character’s plight not at the hands of the zombies, but at the hands of the writers. At this point it would be a shocking surprise twist if they didn’t murder a main character while she stared.

Where the series leaves me behind is in this genuinely fetishistic obsession with having you watch Clementine watch utter horror. Again, it’s the impression that this of itself is believed to be a bold or interesting narrative statement that grates so hard, where we’re supposed to be emotionally bowled over by their courageous portrayal of a child’s suffering. Yeah, maybe the first time. But after ten episodes of farcical cruelty it just became revolting. Only because the games were so boring, uninvolved and repetitive did I struggle to find the energy to care, but on some barely-interested level I worried about the minds that felt the need to just keep repeating the same theme.

[src]

Kudos for the archived link.

AFAIK she's one of the lead characters, but the actual protagonist is a new guy.

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't think Clementine-as-protagonist is the reason for the lower sales. TWD just isn't a very good game, since even the people at RPS can figure that one out.

 

[Abu Antar]

I didn't mind Season 1 but Season 2 wasn't really good.

 

[Azarkon]

Most people who played that game consider season 1 better. But then again, reading through comments at the time, it felt as though that was the first adventure game many people played in a long time, so maybe it was just that.

 

[Azarkon]

- English major gave him exposure to books he doesn't think he would've read otherwise, such as Heart of Darkness. Didn't like Heart of Darkness the first time he read it, but in the second time it clicked.

Alas that even MCA appears to have read so little 'demanding' literature. As a general rule, vidya writers would do well to 1) better acquaint themselves with the Western Canon; 2) properly engage with modernist prose and its precipitates; 3) study poetry (including that of the 'experimental' variety), with the proviso that all of these steps are equally necessary if true incline is to be achieved. Of course, none of this will ever happen, because CRPG fiction as a 'literary' genre has yet to crawl out of its Procrustean bed.

For video games writing, I'll take comic books, films, and plays as inspiration any day over the Western Canon. Can't stand game designers who think they're writing a novel.

 

[Quillon]

I hate Telltale games, they try to be more than adventure games but I can't not see them as less(way less) than RPG games. But they are popular among developers for some reason, if I were an RPG dev and see these Telltale stuff marketed with its C&C and sell a ton, I'd be very much pissed.

 

[PlanHex]

I think it's more about Telltale in general than Walking Dead specifically.
Take the other similar games released after Walking Dead S1 and order by release date:

The Walking Dead: 2,214,450
The Wolf Amongus: 989,570
The Walking Dead: Season Two: 1,213,821
Tales from the Borderlands: 638,142
Game Of Thrones: More Telltale Series: 596,363
Minecraft Story Mode: 213,192
The Walking Dead: Michonne: 162,607
Batman: Another Boring Telltale Series: 131,069
The Walking Dead: A New Frontier: 122,467

edit:
up next:
Guardians Of The Galaxy: The Game: The Telltale Series: ~100k sales
Game Of Thrones: Even More Telltale Series: Season Two: <100k sales

Best case scenario is they go back to making Sam & Max and that stuff. Worst case scenario is that they go back to making Sam & Max or Monkey Island but turn it into non-venture story mode games like they're making now.

 

[Abu Antar]

I think it's more about Telltale in general than Walking Dead specifically.
Take the other similar games released after Walking Dead S1 and order by release date:

The Walking Dead: 2,214,450
The Wolf Amongus: 989,570
The Walking Dead: Season Two: 1,213,821
Tales from the Borderlands: 638,142
Game Of Thrones: More Telltale Series: 596,363
Minecraft Story Mode: 213,192
The Walking Dead: Michonne: 162,607
Batman: Another Boring Telltale Series: 131,069
The Walking Dead: A New Frontier: 122,467

edit:
up next:
Guardians Of The Galaxy: The Game: The Telltale Series: ~100k sales
Game Of Thrones: Even More Telltale Series: Season Two: <100k sales

Don't forget that some of these have also been bundled. I guess it isn't a problem for them, though. I can't imagine that these games cost a fortune to make. Their latest games still have the same problems like their earlier ones. Same engine and all.