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FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
I'm sure it must have been technological limitations that Fallout didn't have all weapons looking like ray-guns, though.
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7D492CC0724BE9DC20F76868B129DD26FB984FE7

And that's supposed to show what exactly?
I am aware of those, but thanks anyway.
Except, you know, the ray-gun in Fallout is an unique item, more or less an easter egg.

Also, the pistol in the 3rd image is not a ray-gun in any way.
Here's a cleaner image:
aR5bpRo.jpg
Yeah, it's totally fucking Jetsons there.

Pretty pathetic try, Roguey.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
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Messages
13,716
It's much more evocative in both composition and technique to a Boris Vallejo painting actually.

Regardless, why isn't Fallout filled with ray-guns and space-age store signs then? Why is the whole 50s theme mostly hinted at rather than being the circus attraction?
Do you think they didn't have the technology back then to do people pretending to be Elvis, or what?

Or maybe these are the only things newfags could understand from the Fallout art direction and so they just shitted them all over in Fallout 3 and New Vegas?
Where is the art deco architecture? Where are the statues on building corners? Where are the elements that were actually part of Fallout's art direction?
Oh, right, those were not important, because as always, newfags think the original developers just didn't get it right and needs to be fixed and they're the only ones that can do it.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
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Isn't the difference that FO1 had lame nerd culture Easter Eggs, whereas FO2 had lame pop culture critical path elements? Like the main antagonist being a Secret Service agent named after the protagonist of In the Line of Fire? And the nerd culture vs. pop culture thing is non-trivial. I'm not a Dr. Who guy, but the Dr. Who reference is a shibboleth so that the designer and player can identify each other as the same tribe. I would say that is arguably even true of South Park in 1997 (its first season). By contrast, a lot of the stuff in FO2 is just pop culture stuff that sometimes felt a little like a behind-the-times uncle -- Dan Quayle jokes in 1998, six years after Quayle had been out of office? Mike Tyson biting Evander Holyfield's ear? As Good as It Gets?

Also, I would say the problem is actually less with that kind of small stuff, and more with whole areas being seemingly out of theme, like the Temple of Trials (though I've defended its aesthetic elsewhere), Yakuza vs. Scientologists in San Francisco, etc. And even off the critical path, it's not like this stuff is weird outlier material, it's everywhere you go. I mean, I've often made fun of Pirates of Darkwater, a cartoon I loved, by having not one but multiple "heroes must rescue a cute animal" episodes; FO2's comparable thing is not one "lol, it's an animal but it has human intelligence" encounter but three (? four? I can't remember -- there's Pinky and the Brain, the scorpion, the Death Claw...). Overall, FO2 felt more like Wasteland's setting in some ways than FO1's in terms of the zaniness level.
 

Fairfax

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Messages
3,518
Isn't the difference that FO1 had lame nerd culture Easter Eggs, whereas FO2 had lame pop culture critical path elements? Like the main antagonist being a Secret Service agent named after the protagonist of In the Line of Fire? And the nerd culture vs. pop culture thing is non-trivial. I'm not a Dr. Who guy, but the Dr. Who reference is a shibboleth so that the designer and player can identify each other as the same tribe. I would say that is arguably even true of South Park in 1997 (its first season). By contrast, a lot of the stuff in FO2 is just pop culture stuff that sometimes felt a little like a behind-the-times uncle -- Dan Quayle jokes in 1998, six years after Quayle had been out of office? Mike Tyson biting Evander Holyfield's ear? As Good as It Gets?

Also, I would say the problem is actually less with that kind of small stuff, and more with whole areas being seemingly out of theme, like the Temple of Trials (though I've defended its aesthetic elsewhere), Yakuza vs. Scientologists in San Francisco, etc. And even off the critical path, it's not like this stuff is weird outlier material, it's everywhere you go. I mean, I've often made fun of Pirates of Darkwater, a cartoon I loved, by having not one but multiple "heroes must rescue a cute animal" episodes; FO2's comparable thing is not one "lol, it's an animal but it has human intelligence" encounter but three (? four? I can't remember -- there's Pinky and the Brain, the scorpion, the Death Claw...). Overall, FO2 felt more like Wasteland's setting in some ways than FO1's in terms of the zaniness level.
The problem is that the original creators never got to make another Fallout. FO2, despite going overboard with that stuff, is almost as acclaimed as FO1 (even by the Codex), and perhaps more by new fans. To make it worse, Tim Cain endorsed the new games, so whatever "true Fallout" means and what can be considered too far is up for debate. A lot of old school Fallout fans like to idealize the Troika guys as highbrow Fallout purists, but they were already planting the seeds for the references, zaniness, and different influences. Many fans felt New Reno was out of place in Fallout (including MCA, who designed it), but it was outlined by the Troika guys before they left.

I think what happened to the series is a shame, but Tim Cain's desire to take Fallout to space also suggests they weren't going to stay faithful to the original anyway.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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I can't tell you what "true Fallout" is. There are people who love each of the games, and who am I to dispute that? I'm just saying that you can't tu quoque your way out of FO2's absurdities by pointing at the absurdities of FO1, because they are different in kind, quantity, prominence, even function.

FO2 deserves acclaim relative to FO1 because it has more complex quests, probably better itemization/skill usage (though it's been a long time), better companion functionality, better UI, and I think more varied combat. Or at least, that's what I recall. The only way in which it's a step backwards is the story, setting, and way the story and setting interact with the gameplay. If you don't really care about that stuff, FO2 is a better game.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
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Messages
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Oh sure, they just had a guy LARPing Robin Hood, accent and all.

Nice goal-post moving.

So we go from "is it right to add any kind of 50s stuff you can think of" to "but Fallout 1 also had this stupid thing"?

How about: eat a dick.

I'm not against the "50s aliens" thing or "ray-guns" because they're stupid. I'm against it because those who want to introduce them somehow consider them a part of the setting that was just mysteriously missing, but thank fuck they figured it out and will put it in its rightful place.

Because an easter egg gun and a loading screen means they're an essential part of the setting, of course. So let's not only have that, but people dressing up as elvis too. durr itz 50s:gumpyhead:

Also, if we're talking artistic direction we should ask Boyarsky's opinion on this, not Cain's.
Maybe he can explain the mystery of the missing ray-guns.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
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Messages
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I'm just saying that you can't tu quoque your way out of FO2's absurdities by pointing at the absurdities of FO1, because they are different in kind, quantity, prominence, even function.
That's not what I intended. Roguey mentioned a silly reference in FO1, which reminded me of others I didn't like. Still insignificant compared to what came afterwards, but bad nonetheless.

Just to clarify: I don't think there's anything in FO1 that justifies/validates FO2's references, jokes, zaniness, inconsitency, etc. I much prefer FO1's approach, and wish other Fallouts were more like it. However, I also think the idea that the Troika guys weren't going down that path is wishful thinking, especially after learning that Tim Cain wanted to take Fallout to space.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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IMO, the "Fallout to space" argument is silly; it could've been exactly the same in tone as Fallout (i.e., disappointed retrofuturism with a sprinkling of inside jokes).

The better argument is that Arcanum has the Gil Bates/Appleby idiocy on the main quest line, which is almost as bad as anything in FO2, and plenty of other FO2 level stuff (Zapruder joke?!).
 

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Fallout had the Mad Max jacket and punk rock librarians, though...

Another fucking retard.

What the fuck has that to do with anything I was saying, retard?

And fucking lol at the NV fanboys who consider New Reno stupid and out of place but Elvis wannabees totally OK.
Well, you can see the similarity between a group that has adopted 70s/80s punk rock outfits and hairstyles, and one that has adopted 50s/60s Elvis outfit and hairstyle, can't you? They're more in your face and direct about it, sure, but I don't mind the Kings at all. What's your problem with them, exactly? It's explained why they look like that.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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I'm not against the "50s aliens" thing or "ray-guns" because they're stupid. I'm against it because those who want to introduce them somehow consider them a part of the setting that was just mysteriously missing, but thank fuck they figured it out and will put it in its rightful place.

Because an easter egg gun and a loading screen means they're an essential part of the setting, of course. So let's not only have that, but people dressing up as elvis too. durr itz 50s

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Cargo Cult Kings fit perfectly fine within Fallout's setting, considering all the other cargo cults that have popped up in the world. 2 established those freaking heavily-superstitious tribals.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
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Messages
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IMO, the "Fallout to space" argument is silly; it could've been exactly the same in tone as Fallout (i.e., disappointed retrofuturism with a sprinkling of inside jokes).
Same tone perhaps, but a very different setting.

The better argument is that Arcanum has the Gil Bates/Appleby idiocy on the main quest line, which is almost as bad as anything in FO2, and plenty of other FO2 level stuff (Zapruder joke?!).
Yes, it also has the Black Isle joke area(!), Star Wars quotes, etc. Arcanum is a mess in that regard, but it was a brand new IP that didn't have to stay faithful to FO1.

Still, one could argue, as Roguey did, that it exposed them as "middlebrow 3D Realms", though I believe that's too harsh.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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IMO, the "Fallout to space" argument is silly; it could've been exactly the same in tone as Fallout (i.e., disappointed retrofuturism with a sprinkling of inside jokes).
Same tone perhaps, but a very different setting.
Sure. But the FO1->FO2 "issue" isn't that they changed settings; they nominally kept the setting, but changed the tone and coherence.

I thought the argument you were making is that Cain leaving BIS in the middle of FO2's development isn't the cause of FO2's problems because Cain wanted to set a sequel in space. My point is that a sequel in space doesn't imply the same problems as FO2. What implies those problems is that they showed up to a degree in Arcanum. The problems with FO3 (as I understand them, not having played the game) are actually significantly different from those of both FO2 and "Fallout in Space" -- they really relate more to the gameplay. To the extent there's a setting problem, that problem seems largely to be that they tried to replicate tropes from FO1/2 without being thoughtful about the fact that the game was set on the other side of the country. But I also think the >FO2 Fallouts show why a major setting shift like Fallout in Space wasn't a bad idea; after a while Vault n, Supermutant variety x, raider clan [name] starts to feel repetitious, and the effort to avoid repetition yields zaniness.[/QUOTE]
 

Fairfax

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Messages
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IMO, the "Fallout to space" argument is silly; it could've been exactly the same in tone as Fallout (i.e., disappointed retrofuturism with a sprinkling of inside jokes).
Same tone perhaps, but a very different setting.
Sure. But the FO1->FO2 "issue" isn't that they changed settings; they nominally kept the setting, but changed the tone and coherence.
The tone and zaniness were part of FO2's issues, but not all of them. FO2 changed the setting as well, which is much more civilized and developed, and started the post-post-apocalyptic trend that FNV built upon (until MCA tried to fix it).

I thought the argument you were making is that Cain leaving BIS in the middle of FO2's development isn't the cause of FO2's problems because Cain wanted to set a sequel in space.
No, my argument was that the Troika guys were already headed in a different direction before they left BIS. They created the template for New Reno, and that area felt out of place.

My point is that a sequel in space doesn't imply the same problems as FO2. What implies those problems is that they showed up to a degree in Arcanum.
I meant staying faithful to the original in regard to the setting and its themes, aesthetic, influences, etc. It's true that Arcanum suggests FO2-esque absurdities, though.

The problems with FO3 (as I understand them, not having played the game) are actually significantly different from those of both FO2 and "Fallout in Space" -- they really relate more to the gameplay. To the extent there's a setting problem, that problem seems largely to be that they tried to replicate tropes from FO1/2 without being thoughtful about the fact that the game was set on the other side of the country. But I also think the >FO2 Fallouts show why a major setting shift like Fallout in Space wasn't a bad idea; after a while Vault n, Supermutant variety x, raider clan [name] starts to feel repetitious, and the effort to avoid repetition yields zaniness.
FO3 is a whole different level of getting it wrong, but it wasn't limited to the gameplay.

It's possible that a consistent FO1 approach across multiple games could get stale, but I doubt it. A lot of the original VB concepts, most of FNV, and the FNV DLCs showed there was a lot of untapped potential while staying faithful or without deviating too much. Dead Money and Old World Blues even had different takes on gameplay, tone, and atmosphere, but still felt like Fallout and were great additions.
 
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Isn't the difference that FO1 had lame nerd culture Easter Eggs, whereas FO2 had lame pop culture critical path elements?

Pretty much this.

The issue is the high Luck encounters in Fallout 1 weren't really part of the setting, but in F2, the same types of references were part of "real" areas and "real" quests (Pinky and the Brain is one, but New Reno also had way too many as well).

And the additional problem with the references becoming "dated" (Quayle) is also another danger in doing too many 4th-wall breaking elements - if you do it (and I'd argue you most often shouldn't), then you should be sure it's something that's going to stand the test of time.

Overall, I don't mind humor, but I like to tie it to the setting and the world, not bring the outside world in.

I don't even mind inside developer jokes, provided that when a player hits the joke, they don't sense something "off" about it or can otherwise tell it's tied to a developer (using dev's names as characters in the game, for example), because that can take you out of the experience (ex: T-Ray in New Reno).

But that's just my personal opinion - F2 was a learning experience in that regard, and I think it hurt the feel of the franchise that had been established in F1.

EDIT: Also, to be clear, I don't think Tim ever wanted F2 to be in space - I believe when he spoke about it, he meant that he considered taking the franchise there in future installments. It's been a while since we discussed that, though, so take what I say with a grain of salt unless Tim says something specifically.
 

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