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Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

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Looks like he's being a bit disingenuous. If he were to set up his own studio, he himself would be the one deciding just how much of a management role he wants to do.

Nothing stopping him from hiring 5-6 local guys, or even paying freelancers. One doesn't need to put together a behemoth of a company with 200+ people like Obsidian.

Rebel Galaxy was made by 2 guys, and a bunch of freelancers. It's really not that hard to do if the people in charge are industry veterans with enough knowhow and funding.

I love Chris, but I feel like this is a case of sour grapes. Or maybe he just hates management so much he doesn't want to spend even 1% of his time on it. :?

Regardless, his entire stance makes me sad. It means we'll never see him leading a glorious CRPG revolution with him at the helm of his own studio.

EDIT: Rebel Galaxy, for those who haven't had the pleasure of playing it...
http://store.steampowered.com/app/290300/
 

Trashos

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Management DOES divert a lot of energy to non-creative (creative as in writing) brain functions. And then it is a bitch to divert your focus back to where you want it. Whenever I have had to do real management, I couldn't be creative afterwards until the following morning or something.

Also, take care of your body, dudes. Women love it, men respect it (or love it, whatever floats your boat), your health appreciates it.
 

Haba

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Looks like he's being a bit disingenuous. If he were to set up his own studio, he himself would be the one deciding just how much of a management role he wants to do.

Nothing stopping him from hiring 5-6 local guys, or even paying freelancers.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. It. does. not. work. like. that.

Not even if you are a millionaire who is doing the business purely out of philanthropy. If you are involved, it will suck you in.
 
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You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. It. does. not. work. like. that.
Really, please illuminate me. Because the 5 people I have working under me every single day manage themselves, amirite?

Not even if you are a millionaire who is doing the business purely out of philanthropy. If you are involved, it will suck you in.
The autism on this board is staggering... Look, it's all a matter of scope! You DO NOT NEED to spend dozens of hours dicking around with managerial duties! Whoever is selling you that line is a fucking lier, or an imbecile. In fact, it's the exact opposite. The faster and more agile you are, the better. I've seen Obisidan's lax management style in a fuckton of companies, and it's a pile of garbage. I can't recall the number of times I've read about their devs arguing for hours over some pointless inanities, or re-iterating back and forth. Even Ken Levine scrapped entire portions of Bioshock because he *could*, not because it was a good idea. If I ran my underlings like that, my boss would fire my ass in a matter of minutes. These people are fucking morons who have golden parachutes to fall back on when they fuck up. Why do you think Obsidian's projects are always buggy and late? Because they lack a fucking hierarchy where one asshole on the top can tell everyone else to fuck off and get to work once product features have been agreed upon and hammered in.

The game industry as a whole is a shitshow ran by lobotomized monkey who have braindead gerbil apologists lapping up their diarrhea and excuses.

I'm not saying MCA is like that, and more power to him if he wants to freelance, but the fact of the matter is that managerial duties can be handled in as narrow or as broad a sense as the manager wishes it.

Stop drinking the koolaid and wake the fuck up. The gaming industry is full of incompetent retards who produce shlock, and this goes all the way from QA up to the upper echelons.

God forbid someone has their feelings hurt for being called a dumb fuck after derailing a project for the Nth time in a week.
 
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Infinitron, I've been lurking the site for years. And what the fuck does that have to do with my argument? For all you know, I could be Mike Morhaime himself.
 
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I find it hilarious how many apologists there are for poor and shoddy work, even among Codexians.

If people ran architectural firms like they do gaming companies, they'd go out of business in under a month.

If someone wants to freelance, more power to them, but setting up a studio and paying hired guns to produce content is a really simple process.

The only annoyance is the red tape, but that's a one-time hurdle (for the most part). Regardless, one doesn't need to be a megalomaniac and shoot for a 50+ team of people.
 

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If people ran architectural firms like they do gaming companies, they'd go out of business in under a month.
I've never worked for an architectural firm. I'm not sure if you've ever worked for a game company. I strongly suspect that given the vast differences in the products and personnel, the same things would not work in both fields.

In the game industry, small teams of freelancers require different management from large companies of professionals, but it is still a surprising amount of management. The problem is that there are multiple different media coinciding and they need to be coordinated. As I've noted in other threads, there are different ways you can incentivize people to work, and in a small, indie team, often a key incentive is (some degree of) creative autonomy for the team members. Expecting people to simply execute your fiats without question is not reasonable. But even if it were, it would require fairly specific fiats, the issuance of which is itself a form of management.

My experience is that in a game project, large or small, there is really no way to escape the act of managing, just ways to change what it consists of. Really you are balancing among: (1) front-end standards; (2) task assignments; (3) back-end feedback. You can emphasize or deemphasize among these, but you can't get rid of management altogether.

It is true that you can delegate managerial tasks, especially some fairly ministerial ones (like setting and enforcing deadlines or technical specifications). But if you delegate the creative management, it ceases to be your project and becomes the delegatee's. Ultimately to have a game be Avellone's vision, he has to be actively managing the many different components and disciplines that go into it. I recall Miyazaki talking about how for one of his movies, every frame had at least one of his brush strokes on it, because he wanted it to be exactly right. You don't have to micromanage like that, but neither can you say just provide a general (or even specific) plan and sit back and watch its construction proceed smoothly.

Ultimately, if Avellone found a way to delegate all management, he'd be an owner-writer rather than an employee-writer, but I don't think it would be "his" project unless he insisted on sticking his name on it.
 

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Yeah, fuck elves

(except half breeds?)
I believe male elves should stay home and wash the dishes, much like female dwarves. They should be completely erased from fantasy fiction as they serve no real purpose.
 
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I strongly suspect that given the vast differences in the products and personnel, the same things would not work in both fields.
There are some overarching elements that encompass both.

In the game industry, small teams of freelancers require different management from large companies of professionals, but it is still a surprising amount of management
No different than in firms that do architectural or electrical engineering projects. In fact, I'd argue it's a helluva lot more difficult to construct a hydroelectric dam than it is to put together a game.

The problem is that there are multiple different media coinciding and they need to be coordinated.
Again, no different than in any large firm that has anywhere from dozens to hundreds of professionals.

As I've noted in other threads, there are different ways you can incentivize people to work, and in a small, indie team, often a key incentive is (some degree of) creative autonomy for the team members.
This here is the gist of it. You know how people are incentivized in other areas of work? By getting their asses fired. 'Artists' in general are a bunch of lazy and self-absorbed cunts who have this erroneous belief that their work is somehow more difficult and special just because it can't be quantified. Not calling you or MCA out, just saying that stereotypes exist for a reason. It's the same with sports stars and teachers. All these people get to slide through life because they're never called out on their bullshit, and most of the time enjoy playing the victim.

Expecting people to simply execute your fiats without question is not reasonable.
No, it's not - it's called being a responsible adult engaged in a working, professional relationship. Your viewpoint is skewed.

You can emphasize or deemphasize among these, but you can't get rid of management altogether.
Agreed. But you can be quick, agile, and incredibly efficient. No reason to hold 2h meetings every day.

But if you delegate the creative management, it ceases to be your project and becomes the delegatee's.
I can't comment because I've never worked in a game company, but I believe this too is open to interpretation.

Ultimately to have a game be Avellone's vision, he has to be actively managing the many different components and disciplines that go into it.
Yes, that's the creative lead's job. But the entire team can be brought up to speed with a 15min meeting every 3 days. Do they really need to spend an hour every morning dicking around while Tim Cain bakes them cookies?

I recall Miyazaki talking about how for one of his movies, every frame had at least one of his brush strokes on it, because he wanted it to be exactly right.
Cameron as well was notorious for his hands-on approach when filming, but all his products were blockbusters. Michael Bay is infamous for filming movies for half the budget someone else would spend to get such a blockbuster done. It's called efficiency.

You don't have to micromanage like that, but neither can you say just provide a general (or even specific) plan and sit back and watch its construction proceed smoothly.
There's a middle ground in everything in life.

Ultimately, if Avellone found a way to delegate all management, he'd be an owner-writer rather than an employee-writer, but I don't think it would be "his" project unless he insisted on sticking his name on it.
Why not? He doesn't need to be 200% hands-on. I'm not trying to be contentious, but a lot of why you're saying is often regurgitated by the unwashed masses who give a passing grade to lazy and inefficient dev studios. Just my 2 cents.
 

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I have no idea what im talking about, and im hellbent in displaying my ignorance on the subject matter because im convinced i lurked for a sufficient amount of time
Did you just say that MCA should work more like Michael Bay? :lol:
 
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Lhynn, how do I even answer such blithe idiocy? There's not an iota of common sense or logic in your post, let alone anything resembling an honest question.

If you're trying to ruse me, you're gonna have to do a better job. :shittydog:
 

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The stuff he said is not surprising. I mean this in the best way possible, but MCA strikes me as the opposite of the type you'd want being the owner/ceo of a company. He's just too much of a nice guy (not that it's a problem), which means there's only so much you can take of voting on which and how many chairs to buy, firing people (this one in particular must've hurt him a lot), pitching games that don't get funded, cancelling projects, board politics, and unproductive meetings in general.

He's already a workhorse without the management role. That role must've been draining him for years. Now that he's well established in the industry and (probably) has fuck you money, he can do whatever he wants. Everybody wins.

Is that the Wasteland 2 novel he's talking about?
Yes. He has said a few times that he was really struggling with it. First he split the novel in two, and now it's supposed to be more than that. Nathan Long, who's also working on TTON, has been helping him.
 

MRY

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I strongly suspect that given the vast differences in the products and personnel, the same things would not work in both fields.
There are some overarching elements that encompass both.
That is certainly true. I am a hobbyist in game design -- most of my life is spent as a manager in a different industry. In my experience, management is similar in both, and both require a a lot of hands-on attention and consensus building.

In the game industry, small teams of freelancers require different management from large companies of professionals, but it is still a surprising amount of management
No different than in firms that do architectural or electrical engineering projects. In fact, I'd argue it's a helluva lot more difficult to construct a hydroelectric dam than it is to put together a game.
I think that managing and small indie game's development and a hydroelectric dam's construction are probably more different than they are similar. It is surely harder to build a dam than it is to make a game, if for no other reason than because a shovelware game won't result in a catastrophe when it is turned on. But I really don't think the two are comparable. In one field, you are dealing with engineering types and laborers; in the other field, you are dealing with creative types. Everything in my many years of managerial experience and research and training suggests to me that the best course is to manage the actual person not a generic human being. I manage technical people different from creative people, brain-workers differently from muscle-workers, etc. You can't manage them the same way and expect the same results, any more than you can teach every student the same way, raise every child the same way, cook every piece of meat the same way, drive every car the same way, etc. In any tasks where you want to yield a constant k from fn(x), if "x" changes the function has to change as well. There is only one function that can consistently yield the same result and that is one that destroys the variable. Unless you are Pol Pot, it's not a great strategy.

The problem is that there are multiple different media coinciding and they need to be coordinated.
Again, no different than in any large firm that has anywhere from dozens to hundreds of professionals.
Not so. In some industries (like law or accounting), the various roles on a project are fairly similar. I can't think of many fields where they are as diverse as in game design.

As I've noted in other threads, there are different ways you can incentivize people to work, and in a small, indie team, often a key incentive is (some degree of) creative autonomy for the team members.
This here is the gist of it. You know how people are incentivized in other areas of work? By getting their asses fired.
That's simply not true. At very, very few places are people effectively incentivized by the threat of termination. At the point where that is your primary incentive, you've utterly failed as a manager because if someone can leave he will. Incentives normally include things like pay, quantifiable benefits (e.g., health care), non-quantifiable benefits (e.g., attractive office), social pleasures (e.g., praise from managers, friendship with colleagues), etc. A worker who is only trying to do the bare minimum to avoid being fired is a catastrophe of worker.

'Artists' in general are a bunch of lazy and self-absorbed cunts who have this erroneous belief that their work is somehow more difficult and special just because it can't be quantified. Not calling you or MCA out, just saying that stereotypes exist for a reason. It's the same with sports stars and teachers. All these people get to slide through life because they're never called out on their bullshit, and most of the time enjoy playing the victim.
It's a cute cliche, but it's not really true. Probably something like 99% of the people working as "artists" behave exactly like any other professional. It's just that if you're not going to incentivize people with competitive pay and benefits (and normally indie projects do not), you have to compensate them in some other way. One way you can do that in creative fields is by giving people creativity.

Incidentally, generally speaking sports stars work incredibly hard, far harder than ordinary people do. They behave totally rationally given the value they offer to teams. Generally people respond rationally to incentives. If you started threatening to fire sports stars, they'd just move to other teams that would offer them better job security. The leverage is with the stars, really.

Expecting people to simply execute your fiats without question is not reasonable.
No, it's not - it's called being a responsible adult engaged in a working, professional relationship. Your viewpoint is skewed.
In no job I've ever worked have I managed or been managed by fiat. But YMMV. In any event, I was talking about the specific context of small indie games. There, especially, you are at risk of people quitting because the leverage the project leads have is pretty little.

Anyway, I'm not sure we really disagree that much. You may be right that a sufficiently authoritarian manager could get by with fewer hours of management, but I'm equally sure that MCA has no interest in working with people that way. You might view that as a failing, but I think it fits with his whole "I don't want to do management."
 

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Infinitron, I've been lurking the site for years.

Yeah, all newfags say that.
The faster and more agile you are, the better.
I've seen Obisidan's lax management style in a fuckton of companies, and it's a pile of garbage.
So first you say that you have to be flex and agile, then saying that lax managment is shit. Make up your fucking mind already.
 
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Hey, i got you to reply, didnt i?
And your life finally has purpose. :lol:

In one field, you are dealing with engineering types and laborers; in the other field, you are dealing with creative types.
We could argue semantics 'till kingdom come, but the point is that even the 'creative types' need to be kept on a leash. And I'd dare you to call one of the engineers working at my last job 'uncreative'. Those mofos are some of the most agile and quick bastards I've had the pleasure of knowing. They have to be. If a game fails, no harm done (except to the company and its employees). If a dam fails? Oh boy...

Incentives normally include things like pay, quantifiable benefits (e.g., health care), non-quantifiable benefits (e.g., attractive office), social pleasures (e.g., praise from managers, friendship with colleagues), etc. A worker who is only trying to do the bare minimum to avoid being fired is a catastrophe of worker.
I mistook you for living in a second world post-communist shithole like I do. My bad. Though, to be honest, t'would be nice to have luxuries like the things you've mentioned.

It's just that if you're not going to incentivize people with competitive pay and benefits (and normally indie projects do not), you have to compensate them in some other way. One way you can do that in creative fields is by giving people creativity.
I think we're comparing apples and oranges. My original post was mainly about large studios and their lax methods of operation. Of course indie development is an entirely different can of worms.

You may be right that a sufficiently authoritarian manager could get by with fewer hours of management, but I'm equally sure that MCA has no interest in working with people that way. You might view that as a failing, but I think it fits with his whole "I don't want to do management."
It's not a failing - the man is entitled to do whatever he wants. But I personally feel that a sufficiently talented and e-famous dev with enough money could easily start a 10man studio and produce a very nice, complete RPG, then build from there. I mean, the dude's never gonna get 100% creative freedom unless he's working for himself. And honestly, Avellone deserves to have unshackled freedom - the last time he did, he made PS:T.
 
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Yeah, all newfags say that.
What the fuck does my time spent on the Codex have anything to do with the argument I posted, you worthless, double-digit mongoloid? Even if I was the greenest of newfags, neither you nor that cockmongler Lhynn attacked any of my points. MRY was the only one to do so, and my hat's off to him for it.

So first you say that you have to be flex and agile, then saying that lax managment is shit. Make up your fucking mind already.
Reading comprehension isn't one of your strong points, is it? :smug:
 

Lhynn

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And your life finally has purpose. :lol:
Its fairly well known that i take delight in calling out imbeciles for what they are. So yeah, i did what i like to do.
Thing is, you insist on talking from a place of complete ignorance, and this is transparent.

You have no idea about the conditions of the companies you are talking about, their policies and their treatment of their employees. And you are drawing a paralel with a different industry, then after that you proceed to draw yet another parallel with the movie industry, and bring up a complete hack that is uncapable of making anything of quality on top of that.
 
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Son, the only imbecile here is you. From your nonsensical style of writing, faggoty avatar, and utter lack of sense, I'd wager you're not over 16. Only cucks and jews hide behind a false sense of seniority, and use non-extant hierarchies in weak attempts to browbeat supposed newcomers. You reek of faggotry and pretentiousness.

You have no idea about the conditions of the companies you are talking about, their policies and their treatment of their employees.
Actually, I do, what with the digital diarrhea of garbage their employees spew all over social media. Even if that wasn't the case, the state of the industry is apparent to anyone with functioning eyes. Only shills and braindead fanboys defend these worthlessly inefficient companies. Which are you?

And you are drawing a paralel with a different industry, then after that you proceed to draw yet another parallel with the movie industry, and bring up a complete hack that is uncapable of making anything of quality on top of that.
Christ, reading your broken English is like trying to play Fallout 4 while being fellated by Todd Howard. Listen, chucklefuck, one day, you're gonna grow up, and see how the real world functions. And then, you'll come to the realization that adults -- not manchildren, but adults! -- who work responsible jobs have deadlines and employee assessments. Now fuck off, I've wasted enough time arguing with your dumb ass.
 
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MRY

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We could argue semantics 'till kingdom come, but the point is that even the 'creative types' need to be kept on a leash. And I'd dare you to call one of the engineers working at my last job 'uncreative'. Those mofos are some of the most agile and quick bastards I've had the pleasure of knowing. They have to be.
It's not a matter of "creativity," it's a matter of the kind of nature/nurture that make one a hard-STEM type and the nature/nurture that make one a visual arts/literary type. Creative mathematicians and creative novelists have different kinds of minds and personalities and respond to different stimuli.

If a game fails, no harm done (except to the company and its employees). If a dam fails? Oh boy...
I made that exact point myself. :)

I mistook you for living in a second world post-communist shithole like I do. My bad. Though, to be honest, t'would be nice to have luxuries like the things you've mentioned.
I doubt Avellone would want to move to Central/Eastern Europe or manage a team from off-site. So he and I are dealing with the same populations.

I think we're comparing apples and oranges. My original post was mainly about large studios and their lax methods of operation. Of course indie development is an entirely different can of worms.
By the point I chimed in, I thought you were talking about three-man indie projects.

I mean, the dude's never gonna get 100% creative freedom unless he's working for himself. And honestly, Avellone deserves to have unshackled freedom - the last time he did, he made PS:T.
I don't think he had complete freedom on PS:T -- there were plenty of constraints he was working within (IP constraints, engine constraints, etc.). Ultimately, I think his best-case scenario is at a mid-sized indie company that just lets him do his thing as a writer/narrative lead. Any place where he owns/runs it, owning/running it will probably consume him. Also, though, I think a big part of it is that he can never regain two ingredients that made his PS:T work possible: the energy and detachment of a young man are lost to him forever. Even if he had the same creative circumstances and team around him, I doubt he'd want to, or be able to, work the same long hours. So the game would have to shrink, or his role would have to shrink, or both. We are all laid low by life.
 
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Ultimately, I think his best-case scenario is at a mid-sized indie company that just lets him do his thing as a writer/narrative lead.
That would be ideal, yes. Honestly, not every game company has to have 50+ employees.

Any place where he owns/runs it, owning/running it will probably consume him.
Another meme that needs to die. The owner decides just how much of themselves to invest. I think he could get by with focusing on creative development (mostly writing), and do some cursory management along the way, especially if leading a sub-10-man studio. And honestly, there's no reason to aim for anything higher for a first project, especially given the financial risks.

Also, though, I think a big part of it is that he can never regain two ingredients that made his PS:T work possible: the energy and detachment of a young man are lost to him forever.
Then scale down the project. It's not rocket science.

Even if he had the same creative circumstances and team around him, I doubt he'd want to, or be able to, work the same long hours. So the game would have to shrink, or his role would have to shrink, or both. We are all laid low by life.
There's nothing wrong with aiming for a text-heavy 15-hour RPG with mid-tier C&C and graphics a la Banner Saga. Easily doable, and without sacrificing one's health.
 

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