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Civilization VI - Now available, so you can sink all your free time into it

Mr. Pink

Travelling Gourmand, Crab Specialist
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
3,044
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Traders and spies requiring your attention every single turn and the unit autoselect jerking you in unpredictable ways remains unfixed.

edit: i think a way to make gold-heavy civilization builds more viable would be to have a mercenary market like in endless legends. a pool of normal and unique units would be available for you to recruit at a higher gold maintenance cost. if gold from plundering is increased, you could finance a mercenary army purely through pillaging. As it is now, the only way to have a strong military early-mid game is to either stack production or faith-buy.
 

Anthedon

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 1, 2015
Messages
4,515
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Traders and spies requiring your attention every single turn and the unit autoselect jerking you in unpredictable ways remains unfixed.

edit: i think a way to make gold-heavy civilization builds more viable would be to have a mercenary market like in endless legends. a pool of normal and unique units would be available for you to recruit at a higher gold maintenance cost. if gold from plundering is increased, you could finance a mercenary army purely through pillaging. As it is now, the only way to have a strong military early-mid game is to either stack production or faith-buy.

  1. Edit UserOptions.txt.
  2. Change AutoUnitCycle 1 to AutoUnitCycle 0
The file is located in Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\.

Has the AI improved with the patch?
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,409
^^
Reloaded version is up, so I'll be looking it up.
Also, the unit cycle toggle is now available in the game menu.
 

rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
652
A new stupid question: How do you move your spies to an enemy district?
Say, if I want to sabotage an enemy industrial district (like they do to me all the time) or steal a relic from a holy site, how do I even tell my spy to go there?
 

flyingjohn

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
2,961
For anybody waiting for ai improvements abandon hope:
"
For those curious, a large part of the AI problems they have is because they decided to do a lot of decision making through what's called a 'behaviortree'. It's basically a collection of types of behaviors (move / attack / settle/ collect units/ upgrade / declare war/plan a units construction/ etc) that are done in some succession. Some of these are assigned to operations, which is basically a team of units doing some behavior together.
The idea may have originally been to make these types of behaviors easy to edit and even moddable. But I think it just ended up flopping horribly. The problem with it is mostly that these behaviortrees are almost completely blind to anything, there's very very few conditionals in there that would allow anything even resembling smart decision making. Units get constantly locked inside of behavior nodes, such as having them move to somewhere, without any way of getting them out of there again.

An example of a conditional that is missing is that there's nothing there that allows you to check whether your settler is on the same tile as a unit. You can tell the behaviortree to form formations, but it only seems to do that if the units are already on the same tile, otherwise itll just pass the 'formation making node' and continue on as if nothing went wrong.

Another example is that when units are locked into an operation, you cant have them switch over to another task. Capturing civilians is done through a different operation/behaviortree than say attacking cities is. So if a unit locked to 'attacking a city' sees an unescorted civilian settler, its gonna run right past it.

And when attacking a city, there is nothing there that allows you to check the health of the enemy city. If humans see that a city is at 5 health, they'll attack it quickly before its too late. The AI can't see it, and will be distracted by anything it would ordinarily be distracted by. Move a unit out of the city a turn before its captured, and its rather likely that all of the enemy units will decide to chase after that unit. You buy a turn, get some city health back, find some reinforcements, and the war is won.

Unless they either abandon or significantly improve on this system, no big AI steps can take place. Sure, small improvements here and there can be done (check out my mod AI+ for some improvements), but nothing that will actually resemble smart behavior, especially in those areas most visible, like combat."
 

rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
652
Wanna link to the source of that?

Though I don't doubt it's true - Civ5 had essentially the same problem, only worse.
Being a programmer myself, I know the phenomenon: You look at some implementation and can't help but think: Surely I can do better than this half arsed borderline unusable system!
And then you make quick progress towards a much better solution. But then you see there are cases you fancy implementation cannot handle. Since you don't wanna tear it ALL down, you just bolt on some additional functionality.
But there are still things your code is incapable of. And the deadline is looming.
So you just make sure at least some stuff works as good as possible and leave it be - you just built your own half arsed borderline unusable system...

Civ6's entire design speaks of this loudly. Some concepts are really cool on paper, partially also in implementation, but only partially. The rest is rubbish.
 

Bliblablubb

Arcane
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Messages
2,925
Location
Copium Den
Reminds me of the "Empire: Total War" campaign AI. It would move an army to garrison a village, even tho that village won't even exist yet for the next 30. So it got stuck there, each round trying to enter it. Yeah.

Let's be honest about the Civ6 AI: it's not about some bugs the managed to slip through. There is no way all those problems weren't obvious during development.
They just ignored it because: deadline, budget and effort.
So they just ran with it and hoped for the best, player's attention span is short, next DLC with shinies will distract them.

And history proves them right: Medieval 2 had a abysmal AI, they vowed to improve in Empire, but didn't. I stopped bothering with their games after that, but considering the sales others don't. Maybe AI did improve after that, but it was already too late for me.

So, we're not going to get anything better with that little budget companies assign to "post release polishing". RIP Civ. Probably. :salute:
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,409
So I managed to test it with a new patch, King difficulty (that's the last difficulty I played pre-patch, so I wanted a direct comparison). I also wanted to give domination victory a spin.

First of all, roflstomping everyting with long range modern artillery with baloon support is quite fun.
The inane leader animations are pretty satisfying when they squirm and bitch as you wipe them out one by one like the retarded children they are.
I wasn't expecting any challenge, and there really wasn't any. While I was pumping out 200 science and culture per turn, the best that AI could do was around 50.
I'd actually say Domination victory is pretty fun, for what it is - a power trip about squashing bugs.
And the game managed to shit on my glorious feeling of godhead by bugging out, when I annihilated the penultimate opponent, I got a defeat by conquest screen.
I guess Saladin was right in his final words, it's not a "real victory" after all.

I noticed an improvement in the amount of districts the AI builds, especially the ones that started on my continent, but the civs on the other continent were very stunted.
Not sure if it's related to barbarians in some way, perhaps since I was quite effective at wiping them out they popped up on the other side of the world.
Though I noticed that no civs were wiped out prematurely by them, so maybe something got improved here.
All in all, the AI is still unable to get good adjacency out of its districts, and neither can it work with trade routes, which the human can abuse quite effectively with the right civics.

I had more success playing with diplomacy this time round. Despite going for a Domination victory, I managed to be BFF with Peter, who was with me until I wiped out three other civs,
sometimes even taking part in a joint war, though he wasn't a very active war ally. Then he just went from BFF from immediate denounce. fair enough.

Getting friendly with civs is quite tricky, I had to abuse making promises to get quite a sizeable bonus to relations (build a city or parade an army next to their border, promise to stop, then do so until a popup appears).
It even managed to offset warmonger penalties, which in my opinion are way too severe, even though I only declared Colonial Wars with lowest penalties possible, it made everyone denounce me on sight, effectivelly shutting down diplomacy.

There were no more lolrandom sneak attacks by friends, which is a mixed blessing cause I actually had to look around for a Casus Belli, which made for periods of boredom.
In the end, the whole world devolved into a mess with all Civs denouncing each other all the time. It's a shame, cause the game turned out to be every man for himself, whereas
a group effort by a couple of civs might actually give me some challenge.

I think the current system is still fucked, because the AI is much to reliant on its fixed agendas in determining who to be friendly with, and the resultant modifiers are way too high.
For example, making friends with China and Brazil is pretty much impossible unless you purposedly gimp yourself, because the guys will immediately throw a tantrum whenever you build a wonder or get a great person.
Same goes for Catherine, I tried to butter her up once our relations were still neutral, just to see if I could, but she quickly decided we can't be friends cause she doesn't have a city on my continent. Also, she was lagging behind in civics,
so I got a sizeable malus from different government types.

All in all, it's possible to "game" the system, but it feels like way too much bother for very little gain. I really hope an inevitable expansion gives a full revamp to the system, allowing for a real Diplomatic Victory with something like the UN from the previous games.
 

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
12,016
I'm not sure why people are surprised at dumb AI incapable of handling units on hexes in a game where "smarter AI" was always achieved by literally having it cheat.
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,409
Nobody is surprised since Civilization 5 happened.

What is mildly amusing, though, is that no measures are taken to unfuck the system that's obviously not working since the recent iteration of the game.
However, barbarian AI can actually do a pretty decent job, for what it's meant to do.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,894
Reinstalled after the patch, loaded an old game that was crashing every time I would capture the last enemy capital - still crashing at the exact same spot. Great QA right there.
 
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rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
652
There's a staggering amount of bugs still in there. And I'm one who often fails to notice such things.

Some random genuine bugs I encountered in my post-patch playthrough:
A city screen is not displaying the last thing it built, but the thing it build before that.
Sometimes unit orders fail to initialize properly, so you cannot fortity or sleep a unit for which this should be possible.
Random player/AI units will occasionally display the eclamation mark barbarian scouts use when spotting the player.
Sometimes the action button in the bottom left (that says unit needs orders) won't actually take you to that unit.
Carriers with planes on them will occasionally leave those planes behind when moved.
Enemy fleets can sometimes move directly onto the same tile a carrier is on, i.e. you have a friendly and enemy unit sitting on the same hex.
Exiting the game sometimes fails to "clear" the GPU, leading to a black screen only a reboot can resolve.
The settler overlay randomly displays city suggestions or not.

The game also has a ton of other issues, balancing, UI, AI, and so on and so forth, some of which I'm sure will never be fixed.

For now, I think I had my share.
 

baturinsky

Arcane
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
5,535
Location
Russia
This game has the weirdest selection of leaders in series. Looks like they like loser cuck rulers, because they are more politically correct.
Only one good fit is Roosevelt - president that ruled the longer and even dropped some nukes - perfect civ leader.
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,409
Yeah, you would think that "300" movie gave Leonidas enough street cred that he's a no-brainer for Sparta. Same goes Catherine de Medici, really... that's the best you can do for France?
At least it's mildly entertaining when you beat them into submission.


Speaking of domination victory, I found the reason for the "bug" I encountered. Seems like when you go on a razing spree, it's possible to trigger a religious victory for another Civ
because the global number of cities goes down. Yeah, the game's really great at communicating its mechanics, but fair enough, you can't ignore religion when you just want to burn the whole place to the ground.

I did some testing on higher dificulty levels, it appears that the AI gets a major headstart by getting more cities and units on top of some +% bonuses to all things, though it doesn't seem to really be able to capitalize on it.
The challenge is in surviving the early game, but once you get a decent enough army, you can easily take a bunch of developed cities (which is a mixed blessing as the AI sucks at urban planning and you can't really make a lot of corrections)
and seize the initative. When you have all the whole continent to yourself, all the bonuses stop to matter when the AI is still stuck on 3-4 cities.

I don't really feel interested in playing this anymore, much less in paying the asking price. It was slightly better than Civ 5, but unless there's some major modding going on, the series looks dead to me.
 

vonAchdorf

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
13,465
This game has the weirdest selection of leaders in series. Looks like they like loser cuck rulers, because they are more politically correct.
Only one good fit is Roosevelt - president that ruled the longer and even dropped some nukes - perfect civ leader.

It's the other Roosevelt.
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
They missed a golden opportunity to be properly PC by picking Theodore instead of Franklin, Franklin was in a wheelchair...
 

Lone Wolf

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
3,703
I don't want to state the obvious, but the choice in leaders more or less doesn't matter - they're going to DLC the shit out of this. The Greek split is one indicator of their plans in this regard. But you can almost bet that Napoleon will be added to France at some point, for example. Surely. I reckon the plan is that each leader is better differentiated, to enable different strategies with the same civilization. We'll see.
 

dukeofwhales

Cipher
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
423
yeah, and it makes much more sense to start out with less popular leaders and then add the big names later. easier to sell DLC for recognisable names.
 

baturinsky

Arcane
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
5,535
Location
Russia
This game has the weirdest selection of leaders in series. Looks like they like loser cuck rulers, because they are more politically correct.
Only one good fit is Roosevelt - president that ruled the longer and even dropped some nukes - perfect civ leader.

It's the other Roosevelt.
Shit, you are right. I keep forgetting that royal families is a long standing US/Canadian tradition.
 

Mr. Pink

Travelling Gourmand, Crab Specialist
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
3,044
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Victoria as leader of England makes no sense because by the time of her reign, monarchy held little power. They should have gotten Elizabeth, the quintessential Queen of England.

I approve of Trajan though. Was about as Roman as it gets. :obviously: Monacled emperor that built bridges, baths and roads while expanding the borders of Rome to its greatest extent. way more representative of the Roman Empire than Caesar or Augustus were.
 

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