Console limitations - How much truth in such claims?

[Deleted Member 16721]

I kind of disagree. I think the Wii controls, for example, are great for some things. Playing a game that has you aiming the Wiimote can be quite fun, and even more "hardcore" RPGs with the Wiimote presented unique control options that a typical controller can't do (check Xenoblade Chronicles Wiimote control scheme.)

Objective improvement doesn't really exist here, since it's about fun factor in the end, not necessarily a count of how many buttons you can fit on a controller. IMO.

 

[Ash]

I said "technical" objective improvement. Same way the mouse is superior on a technical level (fine grain control) over any other method of aiming/looking. It's in the performance, in the same way 5 horsepower is better than 0.00001 for travelling, no matter how you look at it.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I know, but I'm just imagining the level of BAD control that can come from going too far with pressure controls. Same thing would be true of any controls, though.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Hmm, but if you consider pressure sensitivity an objective improvement, wouldn't motion controls then be an objective improvement over WASD or traditional directional pad aiming and things like this?

 

[Soulcucker]

I find tilt controls more annoying than useful, though I have seen people use tilt controls on the Steam controller for fine grain aiming. Motion controls are interesting but a console has to be built around motion controls. Even then, look how uneven the Wii experience was, the potential was there but Nintendo pushed for novelty instead of depth. The Wiimote should of been used for freemotion sword games like Die by the Sword, instead we got Dragon Blade and Red Steel.

 

[sullynathan]

One thing I think the kinect and the Wii missed on is getting a cool enough game that used their gamepad. One game that was supposed to come on Kinect but didn't was infinity blade. It was a mobile game that had a pretty good art style, and simple combat but great graphics and would have worked on the kinect.

Instead of adding new gameplay-dedicated buttons there's a....social media share button. Fuck you Sony for that level of decline. You could just put something like that on the desktop/dashboard or whatever the hell it's called.

The share button is fine and does its job very quickly, the only downside is not enough developers using the touchpad.

 

[nil]

Console limitations - How much truth in such claims?

Most of it is in the users' head.

 

[Ash]

Hmm, but if you consider pressure sensitivity an objective improvement, wouldn't motion controls then be an objective improvement over WASD or traditional directional pad aiming and things like this?

Depends on the execution, secondary factors, etc. But on a technical level though? I don't think I have enough experience with a wii mote or other such motion thingamabobs to give any valid insights, opinions or technicalities, but probably.

I know, but I'm just imagining the level of BAD control that can come from going too far with pressure controls. Same thing would be true of any controls, though.

Sure, going sensitive to the slightest touch would be bad, absolutely, but thankfully there are no current downsides to console style pressure sensitive buttons I am aware of.
Edit: PS4 triggers are perhaps too sensitive, actually. But I was thinking Super Nintendo style. You actually had to apply some pressure, and it acted as a good failsafe/logic gate, never making itself present when it wasn't wanted. But it's a problem with any highly sensitive form of control though, for example a indent on a mouse surface or knock of the mouse can potentially throw you off. Not really something to actually be considered a downside considering it's in exchange for better performance though.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

As long as the pressure isn't too sensitive and complex, I think it would be fine.

I mentioned Xenoblade Chronicles because it has a surprising quirk. You can't move and select Arts at the same time with the Classic Controller (i.e. your typical console controller), since movement is tied to the left stick and selecting arts is done with the D-pad. However, if you use the Wiimote + Nunchuk instead (which I did), you can move and choose Arts at the same time. This is a bit better because positioning is important in the game. The Wiimote controls are surprisingly good and something I wasn't expecting.

Just mentioning it as it is a weird case in where a motion control had a pretty significant advantage.

 

[Ash]

Well, full body tracking motion control, once brought to it's potential, will probably be a very beneficial thing. But I'm not seeing a great deal of benefit currently, yet I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to contribute anything meaningful, so salute to you and happy gaming.

 

[Dexter]

FOUR years after it was released on PC, they removed one of the missions from the original (Ascension which not surprisingly was also the most technically and intensive of them all), alongside multiplayer, the Warhead and Wars expansions, the graphics and view distance were severely cut down while putting this shitty blue filter on top of everything to hide it and they had so little faith it would sell on consoles they made it digital only. Oh yeah and they removed prone and lean again too.

Can't we all just agree that both game design/UI/gameplay and other things like graphics quality are also important?

After all, the Codex's most favorite game over any other for the last half decade, Witcher 3, is a graphics whore's wet dream.

Yes, mouse cursor. Consoles don't have those. And onscreen buttons are for n00bs and disabled people. Don't try and suggest many people played JA2 to completion without using KB shortcuts.

The fact is, a console port of JA2 is never going to happen. Because consoles don't have mouse & keyboard.

I think it's funny that he's arguing that games can be played "exclusively with a cursor", when that is one of the main problems holding back consoles from having any type of RTS or Fast-paced FPS games, since objectively even if they had a "cursor" gamepads/analogue-sticks are really bad at hitting targets and buttons accurately in an acceptable time frame:

https://books.google.de/books/about/Speed_accuracy_Comparison_of_Navigationa.html?id=b2q-e_gBpq0C

The goal of this research is to test the effect of different computer interfaces on the amount of time it takes a user to move a cursor from a start point to a target, using Fitts' Law, a model that describes the performance of pointing of input devices. Participants in a study used a mouse, Xbox 360 controller, and Nintendo Wii remote to point at and select target regions. The goal is to see the effects of interface, distance to the target, and target width on movement time, information throughput, and hit rate. Additional path metrics and the speed-accuracy tradeoff will be covered.

6.1.1 Interface Performance
Based on the data collected in this study, it is quite apparent that the mouse is the most efficient interface in terms of both speed and accuracy. It was consistently the best in terms of MT, hit rate, ID, and TP. The Xbox 360 controller operated significantly worse than the mouse, but still did much better than the Wiimote in all of these metrics. Also, the slope of the lines in Figure 5-1 indicate that the mouse has the lowest interface speed constant (b in the Fitts' Law formula described by Equation 2-6), with Wiimote having the highest constant. This means that as ID gets higher, the MT of the Wiimote would continue to grow at a higher rate than the mouse, with the Xbox 360 controller growing at a rate in between the two. The Xbox 360 controller fared significantly better than the other interfaces in terms of path metrics, with the mouse outperforming the Wiimote. This indicates that the Xbox 360 controller has a smoother movement target-selection trail, and that it may excel in terms of more precise tasks. The Wiimote metrics indicate that it is a poor choice of interface to use for accuracy tasks.

Why don't they? I don't know their specific reasoning--I'm not sure it's a question either company has ever publicly addressed and am interested in hearing someone else chime in.

Quite simply they don't want people using Mouse+Keyboard to ROLFSTOMP retarded console players and the ensuing consoletards bawling all over their message boards about cheaters etc. e.g.:

http://archive.is/PvgLl

There was a project that got killed at Microsoft. This project was designed to allow console gamers and PC gamers to interact and battle over a connected environment. Personally I wish it would have stayed the course. I've heard from reliable sources that during the development they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game... and guess what happened? They pitted console gamers with their "console" controller, against PC gamers with their keyboard and mouse.

The console players got destroyed every time. So much so that it would be embarrassing to the XBOX team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative. Is this why the project was killed Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved --- what happened?

Those of us who have been in the gaming business for over a decade know the real deal. You simply don't get the same level of detail or control as you do with a PC over a console. It's a real shame that Microsoft killed this -- because had they kept it alive it might have actually increased the desire of game developers and gamers alike to continue developing and playing rich experiences on the PC which would trickle down to the console as it has in the past.

From a Mass Effect 2 dev:

Every modern XBox shooter has some form of aim-assist. People will swear they don't exist or they have them turned off, but most games don't let you. Halo 1,2,3, CoD, Gears of War 1,2, Resident Evil 5, Borderlands, ShadowRun...etc etc etc

We have five systems:

1) Zoom-snap - When you zoom in, the camera moves towards your current target.
2) Bullet magnetism - if you were going to miss by a very small margin, we help you out. (a pretty tiny amount)
3) Friction - when you are over a target, your stick moves slower with slightly more control
4) Adhesion - as you and an enemy turn, it makes it easier to hold the same position
5) Aim-point-preservation - when you pop out of cover, we try to keep your aim point stay where you want it

There are also things like TrackIR, which don't exist on consoles either. And VR is still not ready for prime time IMO, unless you want your girlfriend/significant other to see you looking like this

Who gives a fuck as long as you can enjoy your immersive gaming?

 

[Ash]

You're making dumb strawman arguments. It is known technical fact that a mouse is more precise, nobody has claimed otherwise, and you're just sucking your own cheesy cock. Par for the course on such topics.
I play with both forms of input, and have done so extensively for decades. I've written code for both forms of input. I am somewhat more informed than the average cuckdexer on such things.

 

[Soulcucker]

You're making dumb strawman arguments. It is known technical fact that a mouse is more precise, nobody has claimed otherwise, and you're just sucking your own cheesy cock. Par for the course on such topics.
I play with both forms of input, and have done so extensively for decades. I've written code for both forms of input. I am somewhat more informed than the average cuckdexer on such things.

You are an amateur mod shitter, don't pretend to have done what you have not done. Especially when you have left many trails of contradictory info on the net that can be found with trivial searches.

 

[Ash]

By "trivial searches" I assume you mean you're receiving PMs by Dev_Anj because I'm ignoring his constant attempts to receive my attention and as a result he's escalating his harassment to the next level by proxy. Can you confirm?

And yes, I have played on both PCs and consoles since the 90s and I have written code for both M+K & controllers. I've also not claimed I'm not an amateur. Don't be so deranged and personal just because I ruthlessly bashed a game you enjoy.

 

[Soulcucker]

No, I just searched "CyberP programming" and followed the links to Reddit and the Eidos forums. Reading through a few of your posts it is obvious that you are just another smug know-it-all, one who postures while outsourcing the programming work of his mod to 'coders'. Though I do love forum drama, so if I can assist in instigating any more drama please tell me.

 

[Ash]

Uh, that shit is dated back to, what, 2012? And nothing could possibly have happened since then, like possibly improving my programming skills and broadening my horizons? Back in 2012 I was reliant on my mentor, had no confidence in my programming abilities and was open about it, but since then I've improved and made it on my own and everyone has to start somewhere. I wasn't claiming to be all-knowing in the field of programming, but rather more experienced than the average codexer, which is valid, as there's no way it's going to be anything more than 20, maybe 30% of members at most that have ever written code beyond "Hello world!".

Fuck you you sad little man. I bashed Gears of War, get over it.

 

[Soulcucker]

Nah, they are far more recent than that. There is a post where you are yammering on about how you are retarded and have trouble with basic software engineering practices, that post is only a year old. Generally sub one sigmas don't broaden their horizons in any serious ways past the age of 20, one just needs to look at the amount of time you spend shitposting here and elsewhere to prove that. Go head and bash Gears, I just thought the arguments you posited had little thought and were on the level of recycled meme criticism that one sees spammed all the time on various forums and image boards. I always like to do a little snooping and research on outspoken people, to compare what they say to what they do and like most shitposters you fall onto the posturing end of the spectrum.

 

[Ash]

So you're a programmer yourself, meaning it's safe to assume you're likely to be at least reasonably intelligent, yet you like Gears of War. That's a paradoxical.
...Unless the answer is you're an Epic Games programmer that worked on Gears of War and therefore are devoid of any artistic talent. It would explain the butthurt.

Yup, I'm still not totally confident in my programming abilities, but I'm learning as I go. Maybe I won't make it to the professional level, maybe I will. I've definitely been slacking lately, this much is true.

 

[Soulcucker]

Yes, I am actually Tim Sweeney. This is my face when staring down a script kiddie faggot.

 

[Ash]

I'm not a script kiddie, but I'm certainly not a good programmer either. The common viewpoint is you don't become truly good until you've been doing it for at least 10 years, and I'm on five. In due time, I hope I can make it, oh great one.

 

[Soulcucker]

I don't give a shit if you make it or if you die in an alley from being unable to afford your Ziagen, I am just calling you out for being a posturing faggot.

 

[Ash]

Except you're being retarded, because again, I've not claimed to be all-knowing in the field, yet five years is still considerably further than most and counts for something.
You can drop the personal headhunt now. Boot up your xbox, insert the Gears of War disc, retrieve the mountain dew from the fridge and chill.

 

[Soulcucker]

Nigger please, you tried to pull the expert card in this very thread, I doubt you even know what a fucking quaterian is and how it applies to control systems.

Me, expressing my disgust.

 

[Ash]

The disgust of the Gears fan/programmer, what a shame. You're likely more experienced than I, but I actually produce good game content through my code. Can you say the same?

 

[Soulcucker]

You produced a mod for one of the greatest games of all time kiddo. That is like filling in a paint by numbers made by Caravaggio and claiming to be an artist. Also I would not call your kitchen sink design good, interesting but not good.