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"Consoles are not responsible for the decline of the shooter"

sullynathan

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The distinction of regenerating health and no regenerating health in halo is barely significant. The regenerating shield represents approximately 80% of your health, your "actual" health represents the remainder 20%.
Shields go down fast in Halo CE and take even longer to regen than any Halo till ODST & Reach.

It is fine you think it is "good for what it is". Like most games it does have its merits. I take no issue with its multiplayer, for instance. Bit slow but other than it's alright. Yet as a singleplayer experience it's pure decline over what came before. It's simply not very engaging. It's a devolution.
It's a decline because it is very different, Halo doesn't have the intricate linear level design of Half-life, like I said it focused on large open warfare. It can be very engaging especially in co-op.
 

Carrion

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Bungie had a two weapon limit because they wanted to force the player to carry weapons that they would need for different combat encounters. Granted, it wasn't well implemented in the first game because you would find a rocket launcher and carry it hoping that you would use it on a strong enemy but that never happened. Also, because they thought 2 weapons would be more realistic (funny).
Do you believe everything the devs tell you?

21254.jpg


Oh wait, don't answer that.

There's realistic and then there's "realistic". Like I said, there are games that genuinely strive for realism, and some of those games are god-tier classics. With most games, though, "realism" is mostly just an excuse for creative bankruptcy or terrible mechanics. Why is you game dull and brown? Well, because real life is like that. Why can you only carry a couple of guns? Because of realism. Why does your game have a cover system and regenerating health? Well, obviously because you wouldn't want to be running around in the open in real life, and because healing yourself with health packs is so damn unrealistic!

Of course, the real explanation is that those mechanics tend to be a very good fit for modern console shooters. Weapon limits and regenerating health make it much easier to balance a linear game with checkpoint saving: otherwise the player might easily run into a situation where reaches a checkpoint low on health, with all of his ammo gone, possibly fucking himself over right then and there. When the gameplay is designed around the facts that

1) health is something you do not need to manage, and
2) you'll be constantly switching weapons, throwing away old ones and picking up new ones,

this problem goes away rather nicely. Sure, a weapon limit may add another layer of decision-making to the game, like a good inventory system can, but it's hardly the only reason developers prefer it to a more old school system. Cover systems and less mobile combat in general make aiming easier with a controller. Games are dull and brown because weird doesn't sell, and probably because there aren't that many creative people working with all these yearly franchises anyway. Going for realism never actually entered the equation with these developers.

Half-Life was even slower

Hmm, you may be right there, if ignoring bunny hopping speed. I haven't touched Halo 1 in years, but played some reach the other day.
Then again, movement speed is just one factor. There's also stuff like the movement speed of the enemies, enemy reaction times, enemy positioning, the number of enemies, the overall margin of error relating to the combat... Rogue Spear is a very slow-paced game, but combat in it is fucking lethal: when you spot an enemy, within a couple of seconds one of you will most likely be lying dead on the ground with a bullet in his skull. Half-Life also has some enemies that either move very quickly or just have rather quick reflexes, and enemies are often positioned above you or have some kind of other positional advantage compared to you. From what I remember, Halo's enemies generally aren't very fast, most of them only have melee attacks or very slow projectile attacks, locational damage is not very important (don't have to hit them in the head, just hit them somewhere), and combat scenarios usually play out on a flat plane so that you don't need to worry about that sniper on the balcony behind you or anything like that. I admit that I might be wrong about some of that stuff as it's been ages since I played it.

Just imagine playing something like Aliens vs. Predator from 1999 with a controller, with those quick fuckers running on the ceiling or the walls, always rushing towards you at full speed and usually trying to attack you from behind or from above, with the occasional barely noticeable facehugger running about the level ready to jump at your face and instantly kill you unless you manage to take it out right away, possibly mid-air... It wouldn't really matter whether your character moved slow or fast, it'd be a total nightmare either way.
 

Durandal

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
You could one-shot grunts with the pistol in Halo by shooting them in the head, which was fairly effective. The pistol being the pseudo-sniper rifle it already was could kill a lot of stuff through headshots, even Elites if would stand still for a moment. Some encounters also included those giant purple things firing giant green mortars at you coming from overhead, on top of Banshees sometimes fucking you over in the air. Although most of the time everything is just flat.
About Halo, it's just more different bad than being absolutely flawed in execution (save for the occasional level design). It's dumbed down as hell, but I think it's fairly solid from a design standpoint, for the multiplayer at least. Given that Bungie spent most of their development time of Marathon 1 playing netgames and finetuning the balance while leaving poor Greg K to learn the ins and outs of level design as he made an amateur attempt at designing the levels for the singleplayer campaign, it's not surprising that that focus would still carry over to Halo. It works, the problem lies more with it.
 

Ash

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Just imagine playing something like Aliens vs. Predator from 1999 with a controller, with those quick fuckers running on the ceiling or the walls, always rushing towards you at full speed and usually trying to attack you from behind or from above, with the occasional barely noticeable facehugger running about the level ready to jump at your face and instantly kill you unless you manage to take it out right away, possibly mid-air... It wouldn't really matter whether your character moved slow or fast, it'd be a total nightmare either way.

It is nothing a simple optional aim assist feature couldn't solve, or even an annoying forced one like Doom or Nukem 3D had in their original forms.

Sorry, but you're talking shit and blaming hardware that is functionally far superior at aiming compared to how people played Doom, Nukem 3D, System Shock etc back in the day (keyboard only) instead of blaming sellout devs.
The real interesting question is, why has there not been any decent 90s style FPSs made today, perhaps even exclusively for PC where controllers cannot be blamed by the ill-informed? There's NuShadowWarrior. Brainless arena shooter. That's the only "old school" FPS' archetype that seems to be made today: shitty arena shooters. Developers clearly don't want to make old school FPS incline. Thankfully, the various modding communities are keeping it well alive.

I will be giving Brutal Doom 64 a play. And Turok 2. Two upcoming console shooter re-releases on PC. That's all there is to be excited about in the singleplayer FPS world currently (aside from mods of course), unless I'm missing something.
 
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Carrion

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It is nothing a simple optional aim assist feature couldn't solve, or even an annoying forced one like Doom or Nukem 3D had in their original forms.
What you're suggesting is trying to prevent decline by implementing a decline feature.

Sorry, but you're talking shit and blaming hardware that is functionally far superior at aiming compared to how people played Doom, Nukem 3D, System Shock etc back in the day (keyboard only)
System Shock makes use of the mouse, though, and the controls aren't exactly controller-friendly. Doom and Duke 3D play perfectly fine as they are, but problems arise when you're trying to make something a bit more complex than that. I've always played those games with just the keyboard, as that's how I got into them, but getting rid of autoaim and adding a genuine 3rd dimension are some of the biggest pieces of incline that have happened to the genre since those days. That's where the advantages of having a mouse become obvious.

instead of blaming sellout devs.
Who said I didn't blame them?
 

Ash

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Said decline feature has been with us since Doom, and if it's optional and is kept out of multiplayer it is not quite so steeply declined.

System Shock makes use of the mouse

In a very unconventional way: no mouselook. And you could still aim with the keyboard only, if I recall. Of course I played it with the mouselook mod because fuck that noise.

Doom and Duke 3D play perfectly fine as they are, but problems arise when you're trying to make something a bit more complex than that. I've always played those games with just the keyboard, as that's how I got into them, but getting rid of autoaim and adding a genuine 3rd dimension are some of the biggest pieces of incline that have happened to the genre since those days. That's where the advantages of having a mouse become obvious.

Duke3D had mouselook support, forced aim assist, and genuine three-dimensional gameplay, yet you still managed to play it in the most unconventional fashion: keyboard only. the inferiority of a controller over mouse with regards to aiming is only really relevant in crazy fast competitive multiplayer shootan, i.e Unreal Tournament or Quake 3. absolutely no decline has to account for it in a singleplayer FPS, aside from arguably an optional aim assist feature if you're going to have tiny facehuggers jumping around at high speeds, which is uncommon enemy design. About the only fast-moving minuscule enemies I've encountered that truly posed a problem for me were those pesky bees from Shadow Warrior (1997).

I have no idea how you can play Duke 3D aiming with a damn keyboard and then claim with a straight face console pads to be a problem when they offer a far more competent method of aiming. Did the Alien slimers crawling on ceilings pose such a problem for you that you thought such scenarios must be avoided at all costs, unless the player has a mouse, like some game design Stalinist?
 
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Carrion

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Said decline feature has been with us since Doom, and if it's optional and is kept out of multiplayer it is not quite so steeply declined.
Doom is a near-flawless game, but undoing incline is still decline even if you're just copying one of the gaming's greatest classics.

the inferiority of a controller over mouse with regards to aiming is only really relevant in crazy fast competitive multiplayer shootan, i.e Unreal Tournament or Quake 3. absolutely no decline has to account for it in a singleplayer FPS, aside from arguably an optional aim assist feature if you're going to have tiny facehuggers jumping around at high speeds, which is uncommon enemy design
Bullshit. Controllers being inferior to mouse and keyboard affects many types of games aside from multiplayer ones, and I don't know how that can be even argued. This can be seen in pretty much every single console port of late 90's and early 2000's PC shooters, some of which make drastic changes to the encounter or level design while some others include autoaim (sometimes optional, sometimes not) and/or notably lower the reaction times of the enemies. Even console-exclusives use autoaim quite often up to this day, which kind of is a dead giveaway that the control method is not quite ideal, regardless of the quality of those games or the lack of it. In general mouse and keyboard lend themselves much better to both fast-paced circle-strafing, rocket-jumping action as well as slower, more realistic shooters requiring a high level of precision.

As for Duke 3D, it had heavy aim assist (like you said) and no locational damage. You didn't need a lot of precision there, not that the game would've been any worse if you did.

Did the Alien slimers crawling on ceilings pose such a problem for you that you thought such scenarios must be avoided at all costs, unless the player has a mouse, like some game design Stalinist?
I don't care at all about what happens in a console shooter. By all means, go ahead and do it, because it might even lead to a decent multiplatform FPS one of these days.
 

Ash

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Doom, Nukem 3D, Blood, System Shock, Shadow Warrior, pretty much all classic FPS great were decline because they were designed to be playable with the keyboard only. Does not compute.

Sothpaw said:
Trailer looks really good. I am playing through Doom 64 for the first time now (EX) and am really surprised just how great of a game it is. Will happily play again with the Brutal mod.

Console decline shit. Uses controller, must mean it has to be Stalinist-gimped.

Carrion said:
This can be seen in pretty much every single console port of late 90's and early 2000's PC shooters, some of which make drastic changes to the encounter or level design

No they didn't. Most were 1:1 ports. Some were even expansions, with new chapters and the like.

while some others include autoaim (sometimes optional, sometimes not)

Half-Life was the only one which made any change to aiming. Strangely enough, Half Life 2 did not. I guess Valve had accurately determined it was not necessary.

and/or notably lower the reaction times of the enemies.

Your bottom, it speaks.

Even console-exclusives use autoaim quite often up to this day

Anything modern is almost always pure decline, especially if console gaming which is a wasteland of shit these days and holding little of value. Not a good way to gauge anything.

I think you mean optional aim assist also, not auto-aim. Auto-aim is very rare these days. And optional aim assist is common on PC too, even exclusives.

In general mouse and keyboard lend themselves much better to both fast-paced circle-strafing, rocket-jumping action as well as slower, more realistic shooters requiring a high level of precision.

Mouse does. WASD is objectively garbage compared to controller sticks.

You are aware stock mouse and keyboards are designed for typing and UI navigation while console pads are actually designed exclusively for gaming, right? Both console pads and m+k have their pros and cons, that's why I use them both. It's why I have experience and don't talk from my bottom.

I get it, you're mad over the decline of the xbox era. Invisible War, Doom 3, Halo, there was some steep decline, yet controllers were not responsible for any of it. It was our beloved developers selling out hard and no longer targeting nerdy gamers.
 
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Mouse does. WASD is objectively garbage compared to controller sticks.

Bullshit. You can't change directions as quickly and you can't be sure you are moving at your maximum potential (e.g. 100% left is easy when you press A, when you move a stick you're more likely to get 95% left 5% up/down).

Also if you use analog for movement speed then you have the problem where you can't tell the exact difference between walking and running. If you are sneaking up on someone and need to walk at 50% speed to not make sound then on a controller you'll actually need to hold the stick at 40% or so to be sure you don't alert them.

In return you get... what? The ability to move at a 22.5 degree angle? wow
 
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Carrion

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No they didn't. Most were 1:1 ports.
Rainbow Six for the PS1, for example, was barely recognizable as the same game. But I admit that I'm not that big of an expert here.

Half-Life was the only one which made any change to aiming.
No One Lives Forever comes to mind instantly, as well as the aforementioned Rainbow Six (both the PlayStation and the N64 version, which is more faithful to the PC one). Deus Ex had it as well, although I think it might've been completely optional (then again, the game also had KB + M support). I'm sure there are others.

Mouse does. WASD is objectively garbage compared to controller sticks.
It's true that analog sticks have their advantages, but controllers as a whole are limited by having a low amount of buttons. This is a bit of a problem in both fast-paced shooters (can't quickly switch weapons in the middle of a fight without breaking the flow of the game) and more complex ones (if your game has leaning, crouching, crawling, sprinting, squad management, special abilities like Force powers or augmentations, inventory management etc., you'll probably want to have a large amount of keys for that).

You are aware stock mouse and keyboards are designed for typing and UI navigation while console pads are actually designed exclusively for gaming, right? Both console pads and m+k have their pros and cons, that's why I use them both. It's why I have experience and don't talk from my bottom.
There are also controllers that are specifically designed for first-person shooters, and as a rule of thumb they're all terrible compared to keyboard and mouse. The advantage of playing on the PC is that you're not limited to one control method like you are on a console. I have a gamepad too, but I wouldn't even think of playing a shooter with it. Some games work better on a gamepad, others work better with keyboard and mouse, and first-person shooters are definitely in the latter camp.
 

Ash

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Carrion said:
The advantage of playing on the PC is that you're not limited to one control method like you are on a console.

You mentioned console DX had mouse & keyboard support in the very same post.

I have a gamepad too, but I wouldn't even think of playing a shooter with it.

therefore you do not have an informed opinion on the matter, but I already knew that.

And again, you're defying logic by claiming you happily play classic FPS' to date with the keyboard only, but think a controller is the root of all evil simply because the aiming doesn't stand up to a mouse.

Some games work better on a gamepad, others work better with keyboard and mouse, and first-person shooters are definitely in the latter camp.

I don't disagree, with respect to aiming anyway. Hotkeys are not the all-encompassing input method they are made out to be, but having rational discussions about such things is not possible.

The point I'm making is the absolute best FPS games (and Deus Ex too, since we are including that now) were designed to be playable with the keyboard ONLY, and many people did play them that way. It's pure stupidity claiming that controller aiming was the cause for decline when the best of games had the worst of aiming input.

Tormund said:
You are really going there?:lol:

There? where? The truth? The truth is not a bad thing. Many games function solely around the use of GUI navigation and cursor control (e.g CRPGs), making M+K a perfect fit. There's just a lot of ignorance surrounding the function of controllers from some, and as usual I only stand for truth in the face of ignorance.
do you see me claiming PCs should not be gaming platforms? Don't put words in my mouth. They're the best gaming platform and it's not even close.

average manatee said:
Bullshit. You can't change directions as quickly and you can't be sure you are moving at your maximum potential (e.g. 100% left is easy when you press A, when you move a stick you're more likely to get 95% left 5% up/down).

Also if you use analog for movement speed then you have the problem where you can't tell the exact difference between walking and running. If you are sneaking up on someone and need to walk at 50% speed to not make sound then on a controller you'll actually need to hold the stick at 40% or so to be sure you don't alert them.

In return you get... what? The ability to move at a 22.5 degree angle? wow

Ignorance, as usual. Futile discussion.
 
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sullynathan

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bro who the fuck is making these threads and dragging me in? Oh yeah, PC started the gaming decline not just for shooters.
 

Lyric Suite

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There? where? The truth? The truth is not a bad thing. Many games function solely around the use of GUI navigation and cursor control (e.g CRPGs), making M+K a perfect fit. There's just a lot of ignorance surrounding the function of controllers from some, and as usual I only stand for truth in the face of ignorance.

What's there to understand? Controllers can't do many of the things a keyboard and a mouse can do. Now i'm sure you are going to say that the other way around is true as well, which is fucking besides the point because you CAN use controllers on a PC, where as you can't use keyboard and mouse on a console, and since the introduction of multiplatform gaming, that means all games are basically console games, even the ones that weren't meant to be played with a controller, like shooters.
 

Lyric Suite

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where as you can't use keyboard and mouse on a console,
you actually can

Technically, yes. In practice, keyboard and mouse for consoles might as well not exist, and games are designed accordingly.

To put it in simple words: this isn't about the strengths and weaknesses of those peripherals. This is about the industry conforming to one control scheme alone.
 
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Ash

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For shooters? Are you fucking serious?

:retarded:

futile. Rational, informed discussion is futile. The left stick is to WASD what the mouse is to the right stick. More, even, because it offers incredibly higher level of sensitivity and control over movement (both direction and speed) than WASD. with WASD, if I want to move at any angle more precise than 45 degree increments, I have to alter my AIM.
 
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sser

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Half-Life blew open the doors on the "cinematic FPS" experience, so really it's the genesis for a lot of what we see today. If console shooters were 100% shit, then I suppose one could hold consoles up for the decline, but games like GoldenEye and Halo exist.

The real decline of shooters is a little game called Kill.Switch which blossomed into the behemoth that is Gears of War. These games introduced/popularized Cover-Shooting, which I consider a negative element and crutch for virtually all shooting games.
 

Lyric Suite

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For shooters? Are you fucking serious?

:retarded:

futile. Rational, informed discussion is futile. The left stick is to WASD what the mouse is to the right stick. More, even, because it offers incereibly higher level of sensitivity and control over movement than WASD. with WASD, if I want to move at any angle more precise than 45 degrees, I have to alter my AIMING.

Dude, you are fucking retarded. You don't use WASD for direction. That's what mouselook is for (and you can move to any angle just by pointing to where you want to go). WASD is chiefly for strafing and for going forward or backward in the direction your mouse is pointing. Have you ever even played a shooter competitively before? Shooters don't operate like console 3D action games.
 
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Lyric Suite

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Half-Life blew open the doors on the "cinematic FPS" experience, so really it's the genesis for a lot of what we see today.

Except that isn't true. What we see today begun only when multiplaform development became a thing, circa between 2003 and 2005 (vis: Doom 3, Invisible Wars, Call of Duty, Thief 3 and so forth). Some of the best first person games of all times were made after Half Life so this argument is junk.

Also, have you guys considered that maybe decline on PC seemed to have begun before full blown consolizaton started because the industry was anticipating the latter in the first place?
 
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octavius

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Do you recall objective markers, regenerative health, linear as fuck level design, cover shooting, piss easy brainless game design in general commonplace in console games pre-xbox era? No, those concepts simply didn't exist for the most part.

There were two different markets then. But with the advent of the X-Box (and the PS2) the video and computer game market became unified, with the resulting dumbing down.
 

sser

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Half-Life blew open the doors on the "cinematic FPS" experience, so really it's the genesis for a lot of what we see today.

Except that isn't true. What we see today begun only when multiplaform development became a thing, circa between 2003 and 2005 (vis: Doom 3, Invisible Wars, Call of Duty, Thief 3 and so forth). Some of the best first person games of all times were made after Half Life so this argument is junk.

Also, have you guys considered that maybe decline on PC seemed to have begun before full blown consolizaton started because the industry was anticipating the latter in the first place?

It's more of an observation than an argument. My actual argument had to do with cover-shooting which is a braindead gameplay mechanic.
 

Ash

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Dude, you are fucking retarded. You don't use WASD for direction. That's what mouselook is for. You use WASD for strafing and forward/backward movements. Have you ever even played a shooter competitively before?

Yes, and that is a sound tactic, yet it's sub optimal. Remain in denial as you please, angle increments of 45 degrees and only one constant output of velocity is not a good thing.

There were two different markets then. But with the advent of the X-Box (and the PS2) the video and computer game market became unified, with the resulting dumbing down.

Yeah, and the evidence, if you actually look, points at PC developers making trash. Where was all those dumb heinous decline game mechanics first found? In the games made by sellout PC devs.
 

pippin

Guest
True decline for shooters started when they stopped being Dungeon Master clones with freedom of movement.

All Doom console ports are shit, though. No exceptions. Every single one of them butchers something, it's kinda hilarious and sad. The SNES red cartridge was cool, though. But I had it for like 3 weeks because I took it back to the game exchange place.
 

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