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"Consoles are not responsible for the decline of the shooter"

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,160
Dude, you are fucking retarded. You don't use WASD for direction. That's what mouselook is for. You use WASD for strafing and forward/backward movements. Have you ever even played a shooter competitively before?

Yes, and that is a sound tactic, yet it's sub optimal. Remain in denial as you please, angle increments of 45 degrees and only one constant output of velocity is not a good thing.

I guess that answer the question: you never did play a shooter competitively, if at all.
 
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Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,226
Dude, you are fucking retarded. You don't use WASD for direction. That's what mouselook is for. You use WASD for strafing and forward/backward movements. Have you ever even played a shooter competitively before?

Yes, and that is a sound tactic, yet it's sub optimal. Remain in denial as you please, angle increments of 45 degrees and only one constant output of velocity is not a good thing.

I guess that answer the question: you never did play a shooter competitively, if at all.

Multiplayer PC shooters, yes. Entered any competitions, no. But I understand combinations of moving forward/backwards and strafing works to get around the environment while shooting, IF you know the environments you are battling in, and that they are geometrically simple.

we're talking singleplayer here, where maps aren't studied and practiced on beforehand.

Pippin said:
All Doom console ports are shit, though. No exceptions. Every single one of them butchers something, it's kinda hilarious and sad. The SNES red cartridge was cool, though. But I had it for like 3 weeks because I took it back to the game exchange place.

What's wrong with the PS port? No notable decline of design comes to mind, unless you favor the classic midi soundtrack but music is highly subjective. Been about 14 years since I've actually played it though, mind you. Edit: didn't have the archvile nor the icon of sin, undoubtedly for performance reasons, but other than that it was p.faithful.
 
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Severian Silk

Guest
Must be some crazy coincidence then that PC gaming went to shit the moment the Xbox showed up, right?

As did console gaming. Do you recall objective markers, regenerative health, linear as fuck level design, cover shooting, piss easy brainless game design in general commonplace in console games pre-xbox era?
GoldenEye was pretty linear. Still a great game tho.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,160
Now that i think of it, some of the shit you are saying has no actual practical reality. You think thumb sticks on a controller allow for any true degree of finesse? Have you ever tried playing a race sim with a controller?

Besides, on a shooter, there's no need to slowly increment or decrease your velocity of movement. 99% of the times you want to go as fast as you can at all times (especially if you are trying to dodge incoming fire, where you definitely want to hit maximum velocity instantly every time you switch direction), and in those cases you want to go slow, you are usually trying to be stealthy where a velocity toggle is much more practical than an incremental stick. Indeed, i remember when i played Dark Soul and i wanted to sneak on Crystal Lizards i kinda wished i could have used a toggle to slow down, since it was easy to mess up with the stick.
 
Joined
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If you want to go somewhere with WASD, you look at it and press forward. This gives you perfect movement control. If you want to do it with a controller you use an imperfect analog stick to move kinda-forward. Let's say this represents 95% of instances in FPS. WASD wins.

If you want to go somewhere with WASD while shooting at another target, mouse is already better because it aims better. Theoretically if you were shooting at a perfectly stationary target while wanting to move at a non-45 degree angle a controller could be better, but that's incredibly uncommon. WASD wins again.

If you want to shoot something while strafing, WASD wins because you can be sure you are strafing at maximum speed. Again, analog controller can only kinda-strafe but not optimally.

If you just want to move while looking in another direction (I can't imagine why, but lets pretend), theoretically analogue could be better. How much? Here's some quick math:

ZCOEq27.jpg


Oh wow, 8% worst case penalty for a situation that is already almost imaginably rare. That's great. And that's assuming perfect accuracy with your movement with analogue, which is also not happening.

(inb4 I messed up my basic trig and look a fool)
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,226
WASD is shit and always has been. It does the job, of course, but you're suffering an extreme case of denial and stockholm syndrome, much how many people shunned the mouse at first.
 

sullynathan

Arcane
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
6,473
Location
Not Europe
Now that i think of it, some of the shit you are saying has no actual practical reality. You think thumb sticks on a controller allow for any true degree of finesse? Have you ever tried playing a race sim with a controller?

Besides, on a shooter, there's no need to slowly increment or decrease your velocity of movement. 99% of the times you want to go as fast as you can at all times (especially if you are trying to dodge incoming fire, where you definitely want to hit maximum velocity instantly every time you switch direction), and in those cases you want to go slow, you are usually trying to be stealthy where a velocity toggle is much more practical than an incremental stick. Indeed, i remember when i played Dark Soul and i wanted to sneak on Crystal Lizards i kinda wished i could have used a toggle to slow down, since it was easy to mess up with the stick.
Thumb sticks have finesse for action games, fighting games and platformers.
 

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,925
What the fuck is the OP even referring to? Good job on separating this into its own thread, whoever did it.

Is it about Halo? I played the original one, and you know what? It was a shitty game. And the fact that it got so popular should tell you something about the lowest common denominator of console owners.
 

Rossy

Novice
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
17
If WASD is so shit compared to dual analog sticks there must be tons of competetive players (multiplayer and singleplayer (speedruns)) that use gamepads instead of Keyboard + Mouse. I'm sure you will now post some videos of those.
 

schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,131
What's wrong with the PS port? No notable decline of design comes to mind, unless you favor the classic midi soundtrack but music is highly subjective. Been about 14 years since I've actually played it though, mind you. Edit: didn't have the archvile nor the icon of sin, undoubtedly for performance reasons, but other than that it was p.faithful.
Actually, quite a few maps were removed, those that were added were simplistic, while larger maps that were carried over had entire sections cut out. PlayStation also couldn't handle as many textures so the game looks blander overall, and the coloured lighting is more of a gimmick. Then also height differences had to be decreased for some reason. Overall it really looks inferior.

As for the music, while the new sound track is very interesting, I think the game would have to be changed for it really to fit. Besides, the original music is just too good (in Roland SC-55 rendition) to justify replacing it with anything else.

To add to the main topic, I have played a bit of Gearbox's 20th Anniversary Edition of Duke Nukem 3D with commentary on. In the second map of the second episode, the two original level designers (I think it was just the two, it didn't sound like Pitchford was involved), talked in several nodes about how the game's level design and puzzles were actually confusing and tedious, and the Levelord, I think, said that he prefers more straightforward games where one just shoots stuff, Ă  la Call of Duty. I don't think irony was involved, they just seemed indifferent to the whole thing, though I can't go back to listen to it again as I refunded the game.

Kind of seems like seeds of decline were already contained in the incline from the very beginning? Perhaps a metaphysical perspective on this, Lyric Suite?
 
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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,160
Now that i think of it, some of the shit you are saying has no actual practical reality. You think thumb sticks on a controller allow for any true degree of finesse? Have you ever tried playing a race sim with a controller?

Besides, on a shooter, there's no need to slowly increment or decrease your velocity of movement. 99% of the times you want to go as fast as you can at all times (especially if you are trying to dodge incoming fire, where you definitely want to hit maximum velocity instantly every time you switch direction), and in those cases you want to go slow, you are usually trying to be stealthy where a velocity toggle is much more practical than an incremental stick. Indeed, i remember when i played Dark Soul and i wanted to sneak on Crystal Lizards i kinda wished i could have used a toggle to slow down, since it was easy to mess up with the stick.
Thumb sticks have finesse for action games, fighting games and platformers.

Do they? Lot's of people argue that d-pads are a lot better for those things. I use a stick myself (360 controller) when i play shmups or mame games but i'm not exactly a pro so i can't say how "un-optimal" it is. I have a friend who plays fighting games competitively and he swears by his d-pad.

The stick worked great for Dark Souls but then this game requires speed more than finesse.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,226
To add to the main topic, I have played a bit of Gearbox's 20th Anniversary Edition of Duke Nukem 3D with commentary on. In the second map of the second episode, the two original level designers (I think it was just the two, it didn't sound like Pitchford was involved), talked in several nodes about how the game's level design and puzzles were actually confusing and tedious, and the Levelord, I think, said that he prefers more straightforward games where one just shoots stuff, Ă  la Call of Duty. I don't think irony was involved, though I can't go back to listen to it again as I refunded the game.

Kind of seems like seeds of decline were already contained in the incline from the very beginning? Perhaps a metaphysical perspective on this, Lyric Suite?

Yeah, all the old school masters brought about the decline themselves, of their own volition. Those that didn't went bankrupt trying to compete with the sellouts, or eventually followed suit realizing it was futile. Now, those of us that know the old school, and that everything has gone to shit, are completely outnumbered by the new audience that was bred by removing the "game" from gaming.

I think it was just the two, it didn't sound like Pitchford was involved), talked in several nodes about how the game's level design and puzzles were actually confusing and tedious, and the Levelord, I think, said that he prefers more straightforward games where one just shoots stuff, Ă  la Call of Duty.

Imo the absolute definitive aspect of FPS decline is not the regen health, it's not the cover shooting, im not sure it's even the horrid cinematic cutscenes. it's the utterly brainless linear level design. I could perhaps bring myself to forgive if the level design was still awesome; sprawling design, puzzles, cool scripted events, secrets, platforming, interacting with random objects, having to actually navigate the environments, vast variety/frequent change of level themes per game. Duke Nukem 3D/Blood tier evolution of Doom's levels. Classic stuff.
 
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Ash

Arcane
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Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,226
If WASD is so shit compared to dual analog sticks there must be tons of competetive players (multiplayer and singleplayer (speedruns)) that use gamepads instead of Keyboard + Mouse. I'm sure you will now post some videos of those.

I never said dual thumbsticks were superior to anything. Learn to read. A singular stick for movement is superior to WASD for the same thing. The other stick for aiming is inferior to the mouse, and that's why M+K still wins.

WASD is shit for movement control. It cannot even be argued, but 'tards will still try.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
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If even one thumbstick + mouse was superior to WASD + mouse I'm sure you'd see plenty of people using it and commercial products being sold. Pro players pay hundreds of dollars just because they think they are getting an edge, if thumbsticks were even close to as good as WASD then there would be plenty of adopters. There isn't, so there aren't.
 

Ash

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Oct 16, 2015
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6,226
dude, It's objective on a technical level in a multitude of ways. *shrugs and gives up*
 
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If it's objective then you can prove it. Now prove it. I already proved my case to a higher standard than you have.

There is simply not a use case in FPSs in which WASD is beaten by analog sticks. There are plenty of use cases in which WASD beats sticks.
 

Rossy

Novice
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
17
Well then come up with examples of people using one stick + mouse. If it's so great there has to be controllers implementing something like that. You won't find any.

Edit: Basically what Manatee said.
 

Ash

Arcane
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Oct 16, 2015
Messages
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If it's objective then you can prove it. Now prove it. I already proved my case to a higher standard than you have.

It's rather simple: One only allows you to go in 8 directions independently, and the other allows you to go in 90, or whatever the angular resolution of the common stick is. Variable velocity is much less important, but still has its uses, especially for stealth games and platformers, or platforming segments within a FPS.

Well then come up with examples of people using one stick + mouse. If it's so great there has to be controllers implementing something like that.

It's likely not done as PC games still have to be designed for stock mouse and Keyboards. there is a custom hardware with a thumb-stick, but it's 8-way (same as WASD), likely for the aforementioned reason.
 
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Rossy

Novice
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Nov 19, 2011
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17
At least doom allows analog movement. Other games probably do too. So, why isn't it done?

Edit: Out of curiosity I just tried playing with a gamepad in the left hand and the mouse in the right hand: It is just horrible.
 
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Ash

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Oct 16, 2015
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You tell me. I just laid out the objective technical superiority of it. More directions to move in, variable velocity that can be applied to movement. this is beneficial for more than just shooters.
Why aren't the other benefits of controllers applied to M+K to create the ultimate control input setup? Pressure sensitive keys? Vibration? Ergonomics and Portability? A lot if it is down to having to design for stock mouse and keyboards. Because programmers need to tell the game when exactly it should vibrate, and the maginitude of the vibration for example, but why bother when stock mouse and keyboards don't have those things? You'd be doing it for the few that splurged on custom hardware.

And yes, I am aware some of those things can and have been addressed by custom hardware. But others are not feasible because stock hardware that is not designed for gaming having to be accounted for.

Edit: Out of curiosity I just tried playing with a gamepad in the left hand and the mouse in the right hand: It is just horrible.

That too. sticks work in part due to the way the controller is held. A stick replacing where WASD is meant to be probably wouldn't work very well.

Another thing is why is WASD still used as the default in spite of this? It has been argued that ESDF is superior for its location on the keyboard, freeing up keys to be reachable without moving your hand away from the all-important movement keys.
 
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Rossy

Novice
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Nov 19, 2011
Messages
17
But you can use that custom hardware with existing games. As I just tested, gamepad + mouse works fine for doom. If it would be really superior to keyboard + mouse someone would just build a controller that has a stick and enough keys to use together with a mouse and would break all the speedrunning records in doom or rise to the top of the counterstrike competetive scene. It isn't done because it's just a shitty control scheme: You don't need more directions to move when you have enough fidelity by just using the mouse for directional control. Mouse control, compared with 8-way control by WASD allows, in the end, more precision than giving up WASD for a Stick. It's exactly like Manatee said. Have you even tried your magical stick + mouse controls? If you can live without using number keys for weapons and use the mousewheel for weapon changing a normal controller + mouse should have enough buttons to play doom.
 
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If it's objective then you can prove it. Now prove it. I already proved my case to a higher standard than you have.

It's rather simple: One only allows you to go in 8 directions independently, and the other allows you to go in 90, or whatever the angular resolution of the common stick is. Variable velocity is much less important, but still has its uses, especially for stealth games and platformers, or platforming segments within a FPS.

You have to prove HOW that is useful. Give a use case. The player needs to do x where analog is superior.

Fact is that WASD is superior for all common FPS use cases. I outlined them above.

Another thing is why is WASD still used as the default in spite of this? It has been argued that ESDF is superior for its location on the keyboard, freeing up keys to be reachable without moving your hand away from the all-important movement keys.

Because Ctrl/Alt/Shift are modifier keys and are more easily used from WASD. If WASD has 8 keys * 3 (Ctrl/Shift/None) modifiers = 24 keys then that beats ESDF with 12 keys or w/e. ESDF makes your pinky that would normally be over Ctrl to be over the windows key, which is not good, and Shift is hard to reach. This is important if you need to, say, hold shift to walk in CS or something (and common keyboards can actually have problems registering if you hold too many keys at once, but are designed to explicitly allow for modifier keys to be held). Even if you can hit them you can't use them with the left-side keys because what do you hit them with when your pinky is occupied?

Despite this there are people that do actually use ESDF, either because they don't need the modifiers and would rather have more keys or because they just feel more comfortable with it. There are no known people that seriously use thumbsticks for movement thinking they are better for competitive FPS.
 
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Mozg

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Oct 20, 2015
Messages
2,033
Thumb sticks have finesse for action games, fighting games and platformers.

Nobody that didn't play fifty thousand hours of Smash uses the analog stick to play a fighting game. It's a 4-way switch system at the root.
 

Ash

Arcane
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Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,226
lol. Give it up you two, or I'll have to start charging.
M+K nor sticks, nor anything we currently use is a truly ideal way to play games where you control a human in a three dimensional world. I'm still waiting for technological progress in that regard. Controllers have barely evolved since the early 2000s, manufacturers instead opting to add social media share buttons instead of buttons that can actually add gameplay depth and bring it a little closer to the keyboard in terms of numbers, and Mouse and Keyboard input has not really evolved since the mouselook days, developers having to design games for stock M+K since the beginning.

Manatee said:
ESDF makes your pinky that would normally be over Ctrl to be over the windows key, which is not good

You've got small hands.
 
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