Daggerfall, fucking Daggerfall

[Eyeball]

Shit, I just tried using the tricks you guys posted to make Daggerfall less fugly but that only made my eyes bleed with the blur.

Daggerfall is truly amazing and extremely ambitious. I wish someone had made another game like it - the gargantuan 3D randomly generated dungeons were about 30 years ahead of their time and we still haven't seen anything to match them.

Shame the DaggerXL project is more or less abandoned. A less ugly Daggerfall perhaps with some better spellcasting mechanics would be GOTY, no matter what year it was released in.

 

[Lord Azlan]

Fair day to thee, traveler!


And so it began. I installed the game and spent some time figuring the settings. I’ll post my mini-guide later on for those who’s interested to save you some nerves. But at the time I finally managed to LAUNCH the game on my win8 laptop, frustration degree went up. Not skyhigh, but pretty high. I remembered my disappointment with Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, remembered all those rumors about how BAD and FRUSTRATING Daggerfall was. But I lauched it nevertheless. That was two weeks ago. I’m a different man now. Daggerfall showed and taught me so many things I can’t possibly describe here. It was a hard lesson though.


=== === ===

In the memory of Lord Vincent Rayne, Paladin of the Order of Raven. R.I.P.

Hi - I believe the game is free on the internet - it is abandonware or something. Can you say where you got it from, mods or patches used and how you installed and got the game running?

I really loved Daggerfall (apart from the dungeons) and would really like to give it another try.

Thanks

 

[Eyeball]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Files

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Oh god, did you really type out a 5000+ word post on the codex about how much you love to LARP in TES games?

LARPing in an amibtious game like Daggerfall back in the nineties was actually roleplaying. 15 years later, changing clothes and doing cool handshakes in a fancy game like Fable, now, that's LARPing.

 

[Grimwulf]

Hi - I believe the game is free on the internet - it is abandonware or something. Can you say where you got it from, mods or patches used and how you installed and got the game running?

I really loved Daggerfall (apart from the dungeons) and would really like to give it another try.

Thanks

I totally forgot I promised a mini-guide. Here goes:
1. Go to http://wiwiki.wiwiland.net/index.php/Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN and download the installer. You can grab the game on it's official page, since Bethesda made it free for all, but the official one doesn't include fan-made patches and content. The installer includes everything you need. But we still need a bit of configuring tho.
2. Install the game. Don't install it in "Program Files" if ur using late windows.
3. Go to the game directory. Open Z.cfg and add the following line:
magicrepair 1
So you'll be able to repair magic items. Or don't do it if you are hardcore like that.
4. Now open the DosBox.conf. There are some things you can play with here. But it's really up to you, your system and personal tastes. All lines are commented there, I just post my own changes:

cycles=50000 - When you set them on cycles=max, you'll get a slightly faster game perfomance and pay with choppy animations. Most noticeably the spell and horse animations. Limiting cycles to 50k makes the game smoother but sometimes, very rarely, it may lag a bit. I still prefer 50k.

aspect=true
scaler=hq3x
fullresolution=1024x768
These three lines are absolutely dependent on your system and eyes. I've got a wide screen and for some forsaken reason the game runs properly only on that resolution. Otherwise I get the black sides. The "hq3x" scaler adds some blur to the picture, but it looks like vanilla when you play it on 1024x768 res on wide screen. Other scalers make the picture far too pixelated for that res. But I'll stress it again: try all of them and find the one you like. Here, this may help:
http://www.dosbox.com/wiki/Scaler

5. There are two minor issues I can't help you with, coz I'm too lazy to figure them out.
- A minor sound glitch that can occur near any source of fire. Going away from it or saving/reloading totally neutralizes it. I'm pretty sure it has smth to do with DosBox sound configuration, but it's totally minor.
- One of those fan-made patches remove the level cap. Original Daggerfall doesn't let you raise your atts beyond 100 points and your skills beyond 100%. But one of the patches break this restriction so you can level up skyhigh. They are all optional in the installer but I didn't figure out which one does that.

 

[Lemming42]

Oh god, did you really type out a 5000+ word post on the codex about how much you love to LARP in TES games?

Nothing wrong with LARPing in moderation. It's part of the appeal of TES games anyway. Just as long as you don't take it to the levels suggested in this infamous page: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Roleplaying

 

[Scroo]

Grimwulf

Very nice post and it reaffirms me in my opinion that I really should love Daggerfall but I just cannot, because unlike you I HATE those dungeons I HATE the repetitiveness, I cannot stand the randomized quests and the empty, shallow world. I like robbing graves tho. But it's great so see someone so enthusiastic about it, everyone should have an RPG they absolutely love.

BUT

TES is the only RPG that comes to my mind that allows to fully imitate living in a fantasy world and not just fighting your way to the final boss eventually doing side quests.

this shows you never played Ultima. Seriously, Ultima does that way better than Daggerfall

 

[Grimwulf]

Oh god, did you really type out a 5000+ word post on the codex about how much you love to LARP in TES games?

Nothing wrong with LARPing in moderation. It's part of the appeal of TES games anyway. Just as long as you don't take it to the levels suggested in this infamous page: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Roleplaying

This one always makes me laugh. But I guess I grabbed some of those habits later in Skyrim, mostly by modding. Like making camps in Frostfall mod to warm up and such.

Grimwulf

Very nice post and it reaffirms me in my opinion that I really should love Daggerfall but I just cannot, because unlike you I HATE those dungeons I HATE the repetitiveness, I cannot stand the randomized quests and the empty, shallow world. I like robbing graves tho. But it's great so see someone so enthusiastic about it, everyone should have an RPG they absolutely love.

BUT

TES is the only RPG that comes to my mind that allows to fully imitate living in a fantasy world and not just fighting your way to the final boss eventually doing side quests.

this shows you never played Ultima. Seriously, Ultima does that way better than Daggerfall

Not that I didn't play Ultima, it's just a severe case of amnesia. Happens to me sometimes. I guess you are partly right, never attempted to actually live that world. The game was all about exploring for me, I just couldn't stay on one place there. That is if we speak about Ultima VII. Pagan was a major dissapointment - more a platformer than an RPG. And I only barely standed 15 minutes of Ultima IX gameplay. As for earlier parts, they were just unable to engage me enogh I guess. The interface gave me a major headache. And I guess that if you mentioni Ultima, you can also mention Fable 1 (the other two are abominations). But I still prefer TES series. I guess that first-person mode gives me more immersion.

Spoiler

I'll put Ultima VII on my list. Haven't played it for ages.

I dunno why you hate Dagerfall dungeons. Just because of the automap and the same textures all over? Well. Back in the day there were plenty of good dungeon games without maps whatsoever. With the same wall, floor and ceiling textures all over. And they would be much more replayable if only they had the randomized feature like in Daggerfall. Seriously, I would never forgive myself for not playing EoB just coz it doesn't have automap. The whole ENJOYMENT was about figuring your way out. And games like Lands of Lore brought the map and made the gameplay cheap. Frankly, I am thankful for the unusable Daggerfall automap - it makes my brain work. It makes completing the dungeon worth something, gives you satisfaction. "It took me some time, but I made it. I didn't follow a f-ng compass arrow to watch some scripted scenes and press x to win. I actually made it with my skill!"

As for repetetiveness - that's the cost of incredible replayability. Try starting a dozen of new chars in Skyrim and playing them for a while. After clearing the same dungeons, doing same quests and hearing the same lines, trust me: Skyrim will be MUCH more repetative than Daggerfall.

This game gives you a massive playground, but it won't play your game for you. You must use your imagination among other things.

 

[madrigal]

It doesn't take skill it only takes time and the amount of time is dependent on luck.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

You spent more time writing about the Elder Scrolls than anybody should ever spend playing it.

codexers spend more time complaining about elder scrolls than the fans spend playing it. makes u think

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Maybe I have mild claustrophobia or something, I just don't like the dungeons.

I guess I'll never make a good basement dweller.

Daggerfalls dungeons still creep me out, the random noises, the awesome ambient soundtrack just really make them feel alive even tho they're random messes sometimes.

Skip the 11 second intro.

God that brings back memories.

1990-1995 truly were the golden years of incline.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Well it kinda IS the game's problem. Let's be honest, Daggerfall just isn't meant to be a game where you have to use pen & paper. But the automap is so bad that you can't figure it out. Don't get me wrong, it's cool that you figured out a way to map those horrible dungeons but you can't seriously expect everyone to be able to do that and then basically say "well, your own fault" because no, it's not my fault if the automap is crap

Agreed and Wiz8 suffers the same issue. 3 dimensional level design with a lot of up and down does not translate to pen and paper mapping. Mapping in 3 dimensions using two dimensional drawings on paper won't work.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

mall 2 confuse to navigate plz nerf

 

[Stella Brando]

Map this.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

CK, malls are built as flat slabs with various rooms - no brainers to map. The dungeons twist and turn with stairs that span multiple levels to single rooms or corridors. They can look like spaghetti. Your example is not analogous.

You only need to use the Wiz8 automap to see what I mean.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Fuck, now I want some spaghetti.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I spend more time reading the complains about Elder Scrolls than complaining about them..

 

[baturinsky]

So far, my dungeon completion ratio is about 1/2. Likely to be more when I'll get levitate and sufficient amount of swimming skill. Or is there another way to fasten speed of movement in water?

 

[G.O.D]

Water walking spell does help.

 

[Grimwulf]

It doesn't take skill it only takes time and the amount of time is dependent on luck.

Nonsense. I can say the same about Dark Souls. "I dont need skill, I'll just YOLO forward again and again. I'll get lucky eventually!" Hell, I can say that about nearly every game. Daggerfall is the most skill-demanding game in the whole TES series, you gotta play it a lot to git gud in it. Eventually you will learn to recognize modules and will find quest monster by the sound it makes. But you will also die and get lost countless times before that happens and that's gonna be entirely your fault. Or you can cheat your arse off and powerlevel your char to max stats in a few hours or so. Your call.

Well it kinda IS the game's problem. Let's be honest, Daggerfall just isn't meant to be a game where you have to use pen & paper. But the automap is so bad that you can't figure it out. Don't get me wrong, it's cool that you figured out a way to map those horrible dungeons but you can't seriously expect everyone to be able to do that and then basically say "well, your own fault" because no, it's not my fault if the automap is crap

Agreed and Wiz8 suffers the same issue. 3 dimensional level design with a lot of up and down does not translate to pen and paper mapping. Mapping in 3 dimensions using two dimensional drawings on paper won't work.

It works perfectly fine, you just never tried it. And I frankly can't believe that you can possibly get lost in Wiz8. You can't be serious.

So far, my dungeon completion ratio is about 1/2. Likely to be more when I'll get levitate and sufficient amount of swimming skill. Or is there another way to fasten speed of movement in water?

I would recommend you discover and figure out all those little things yourself. It's quite enjoyable. And there's always wiki and differnet FAQ's. But if you MUST know the answer right now:

Spoiler

There are spells that can make swimming a cakewalk. I suggest making your own, combining the "waterwalking" and "waterbreathing" effects. Duration is up to you but make sure you can afford at least two castings of the spell at full mana in case of discovering large unerwater ares. When the spell wears out while you're deep underwater and you are in full armor drowning AND don't have the mana to recast it... Trust me, it sucks.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

It works perfectly fine, you just never tried it. And I frankly can't believe that you can possibly get lost in Wiz8. You can't be serious.

Who said anything about getting lost in wiz8? Read what I said again.

Some layers on the wiz8 maps are nothing but platforms and stairwells. These have no useful information to convey. You interpolate the 2d information to form a 3 dimensional view in your head. 2d maps suck at conveying complex 3d spaces. Getting lost has nothing to do with it, it is a pain in the ass to map complex 3d dungeons on paper.

 

[abnaxus]

Last time I played I got really lucky and the letter for Queen Aubk'i spawned right at the entrance of a quest dungeon.

 

[NotAGolfer]

It works perfectly fine, you just never tried it. And I frankly can't believe that you can possibly get lost in Wiz8. You can't be serious.

Who said anything about getting lost in wiz8? Read what I said again.

Some layers on the wiz8 maps are nothing but platforms and stairwells. These have no useful information to convey. You interpolate the 2d information to form a 3 dimensional view in your head. 2d maps suck at conveying complex 3d spaces. Getting lost has nothing to do with it, it is a pain in the ass to map complex 3d dungeons on paper.

And it's absolutely pointless in the case of Daggerfall sidequest dungeons, because why would I invest that much work into drawing some dungeon layout for just another "go there, kill or collect that"-quest.
One of the reasons why I still hope the DaggerXL mod won't be abandoned, I want them to mod in better sidequests.

Btw, try out the mainquest if you didn't already, Grimwulf.
These unique dungeons are even better than the normal ones, but I doubt that you will make it without help from an online walkthrough here and there. I doubt anybody ever made it through that mainquest without some sort of external help.

 

[Grimwulf]

It works perfectly fine, you just never tried it. And I frankly can't believe that you can possibly get lost in Wiz8. You can't be serious.

Who said anything about getting lost in wiz8? Read what I said again.

Some layers on the wiz8 maps are nothing but platforms and stairwells. These have no useful information to convey. You interpolate the 2d information to form a 3 dimensional view in your head. 2d maps suck at conveying complex 3d spaces. Getting lost has nothing to do with it, it is a pain in the ass to map complex 3d dungeons on paper.

No, it's not. Mapping ANYTHING on a paper may be hard or inconvinient for some people, but it isn't science goddamit. Ok, look, I'm too lazy to make a photo of my drawings and I make them for myself anyways - I doubt anyone else would understand them. But here you go with a paint quickie:

Damn, it's much faster to do it on paper. So, you enter the dungeon.
1. Cast a recall spell and mark the entrance on your paper map (green circle on the pic or a BIG FAT "E" when ur using pencil).
2. Go any direction (some use "walhuggin'" technique but I find i boring) and mark them corridors. Do not worry about inappropriate length or something - you can always connect the sections with an arrow or do a quick redraw if the map gets too littered with them. It's faster than you think. Do not open doors yet. Do not accent or descent any stairs yet. Avoid big-ass halls and rooms. But mark it all down, "stairs1", "stairs2", etc.
3. Treat ANYTHING that takes you to the next level like a "teleporter". Don't bothers with layers, just start a "new map" when you deal with any teleporter.
4. Those "complex 3d dungeons" you mention are actually simple corridors, "teleporters" and GIANT HALLS or whatever you may name it. Just mark 'em like a big f-ng square, give it a name you'll recognize later and mark how many doors and "teleporters" it has.

Geez, it's not THAT hard and barely takes an effort. Maybe I'm not that good at explaining things, but once you try it ONCE, it gets in your habits and gives you more joy than mindless yolo-ragin' along the corridors. It doesn't have to be understandable or pretty looking - that's your map, that you draw by urself for urself. Sigh.

Just imagine this: what if you wake up in a middle of such a dungeon with no f-ng clue of how to get out and only a pen and paper in possession? Would you cry out to god "ITS NOT FAER U FCKER, U PUT ME IN THREE DIMENSINS I CANT MAP DAT SHIT NOBODY CAN" and die?

 

[Grimwulf]

And it's absolutely pointless in the case of Daggerfall sidequest dungeons, because why would I invest that much work into drawing some dungeon layout for just another "go there, kill or collect that"-quest.
One of the reasons why I still hope the DaggerXL mod won't be abandoned, I want them to mod in better sidequests.

Btw, try out the mainquest if you didn't already, Grimwulf.
These unique dungeons are even better than the normal ones, but I doubt that you will make it without help from an online walkthrough here and there. I doubt anybody ever made it through that mainquest without some sort of external help.

Why do you think it's pointless and time-consuming? If you tend to stick to a single province, you will occasionally get quests on the same dungeons. And while mobs/loot/quest location respawn every time you enter the dungeon, the actual layout stays the same. It takes me a quick glimpse on an old map to remember what I'm dealing with here. And also, I'm not always mapping. Depends on my mood. Sometimes I go YOLO-ragin' too, although I always regret when I do this. It's better to take a break if boredom/tiredness starts to get to you. Other times I go normal dungeon crawling without mapping, especially if I see familiar modules. During those kinds of runs I sometimes fail to locate the quest object - then I return to the entrance and start to crawl it from the start with mapping. Optionally reenter the dungeon to respawn mobs and loot. But it's generally a good thing to map as soon as you first enter - I dunno, it's just feels right and enjoyable for me.

As for the main quest, I tend to be allergic for main quests in all TES games. I did some things in Daggerfall, yeah: a couple runs for Mannimarco and an attemt to recover the painting from Wayrest - got confused with the lever puzzle there. I got the point: you gotta pull them in right order, but I gave up on them and loaded the backup save. I decided to stay away from main questline for a while and from all major-cities-royalty as well. Not because of the painting, but coz of the damn "deliver the cloak" quest. Do you remember? DAMN, I was so very low-level at the time and suddenly the game locks me in the corner and throws 2 daedra seducers and a dozen of knights?? WTF! They didn't know I'm a wereboar tho But I don't like to push my luck and I just enjoy living the game right now. If I get bored with random stuff, then I'll embark on the main quest. Someday.