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Darklands designer Arnold Hendrick Q&A on Steam forum

LESS T_T

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I accidentally visited Steam community for Darklands and saw a thread made by Arnold Hendrick himself @_@: http://steamcommunity.com/app/327930/discussions/0/343788552550787364/

Ask the original designer why...

Over 20 years ago, I almost bankrupted MicroProse by designing Darklands and leading the team that built it. I will do my best to answer design questions in this thread.

There are some caveats:

- I do not have any legal rights to the game or its code, so I can't promise any improvements or follow-ons.

- I am unfamiliar with the code adjustments made to produce this version. I can't help you with bugs.

- I'm a designer and producer, not an artist or programmer, so I can't help you mod the graphics or decompile the code.

- I don't have 10+ million of dollars to invest in making a new version. If somebody were to offer me a decent budget,I could do it. I've built and led teams many times in the game industry. However, I don't think that's going to happen for Darklands in what's left of my natural lifespan.


Nevertheless, for those seeking insights into the mind of a designer/producer, I'm available.

On the possibility for Darklands sequel:

I've always been a fan of RPGs, going back to the paper and pencil era. It took all my political clout and influence at MicroProse to get the project started. I'm also an academically trained historian, which helped inspire the topic and the approach to it. You can see echoes of Traveller and Runequest in the Darklands design, although the setting was totally original.

The problem with making a modern sequel is money. A decent-looking and playing RPG is NOT cheap. The amount of content for RPGs is staggeringly expensive (lots of art time for world building, character creation, animation, etc.), not to mention all the game data and game logic. If you want it playable online (an MMORPG), that roughly doubles the game programming cost, and adds a whole business-software layer to handle monetization (whether subs or F2P style cash shops). As a producer with solo game and MMO experience, I know the level of effort needed. The classic indie mistake is underestimating the work required, but not realizing it until you've burned through your money and are only half done, at best.

People I know have tried crowdfunding game projects. With a few rare exceptions, most projects can only pull in 0.5 to 1.5 million dollars, assuming they even succeed to that degree. I calculate that I'd need at least 10 million to staff a team for 2 years to build the a Darklands sequel. Therefore, for a modern version, I'd have to find a "white knight" who was willing to invest multiple millions in a core team. That team builds some early demos to attract most of the remaining funding. Crowdfunding helps validate the project (or help us find how to change it) and provide additional money for marketing and reserves. Steam Early Access might play a role in the final phase of testing and financing near release.

It is possible that such a "white knight" investor might be a game publisher. Unfortunately, I don't know of any publishers who would be interested. Even in the heyday of MMORPGs, publishers were very leary of projects that didn't have a big license to generate nice sales estimates from the marketing department.

What he would have done differently with Darklands:

What would I have done differently? Oh, thousands of things.

* First off, the up-front planning and week-by-week management of the game development was terrible. I've learned a lot in 25 years, and so has the game development business in general. Using modern project management (such as scrum), engines, tools and "extreme programming" techniques (which are no longer so extreme), development would have been smoother and more predictable.

* Second, the entire UI needs a complete overhaul. Mouse control was in its infancy on the PC (virtually nobody was using Windows when Darklands was released). Twenty years of Windows releases and mouse-based gaming provides a rich "shelf" of tools that a designer can use to make a game easier to learn and play.

Speaking of UI, a much better UI for character creation is needed. Players should be navigating along a tree to see a character's past career and future choices, benefits and risks of each decision, and a side-box showing how character stats have changed. Right now you're "flying blind" unless you squint almost endlessly at the hint book. Character "backstory" created during generation should be available throughout the game in more detail.

* Third, an "early quests" tutorial mechanism should be present to teach players the game in easy stages, with programmed-in rewards along the way. There are WAY better ways of learning to swim (or play games) than just tossing the player into the deep end and calling out "good luck" as they trash and drown. The game should also have a library of pre-generated adventurers for building a party, which achievements for keeping weaker adventurers alive!

* Fourth, the game needs better table and data-driven encounters, with more variety in the maps, opponents, and goals. This should include more non-combat encounters, mini-quests, and quests that require characters with political, intellectual and/or religious skills for a better "flavor of the times." There should also be some not-so-life-and-death combat encounters.

The quest/encounter system needs a better way of providing more challenge to advanced parties. Raubritters and other opponents, if left alone, should sometimes remain in place and become stronger, rather than eventually disappearing. Similarly, quests should include pointers and hints to other quests, making the world itself seem interactive. There should be more "warning" encounters to players who try too hard a quest too soon. It's too easy to get in over your head.

Data-driven design was in its infancy then (the term hadn't even been coined). The game is heavily table-driven, but I now have vastly more experience in setting up data in multiple interlocking tables to drive gameplay. A great deal MORE could be done.

* Fifth, while invisible to players, the in-game text needs to be isolated and made much easier for a translator to handle. I remember the German translator staying on site for months, working with the lead programmer, to create the German version. We made a TON of decisions that made translation a nightmare.

* Sixth, of course the game needs character and battle graphics overhaul with a decent 3D engine and modern graphics (and resolution). The regional (strategic) map could be redone in a painterly way, with the current party leader becoming the party icon on that map. The map should also have cairns marking past encounters and adventures, directional pointers toward new quests, each with a popup window for additional details. Finally, every city visited should have an informational dialog with helpful information about what's there, your reputation, quests taken and ignored, etc.

* Seventh, I'd like a first rate soundtrack full of appropriate orchestral music. Richard Wagner, Gustav Mahler and Carl Orff come to mind, since I doubt I could afford a custom-composed orchestral sound track from my favorite modern composer (Philip Glass).

* Eighth, I'd make the graphics in pngs or jpgs as much as possible, while game logic and data was in CSV, XML and/or JSON format (again as much as possible). The 3D components should be in 3ds Max and well documented. The goal would be to allow players to create additional art for characters and terrain, and open the data systems to additional encounter writing and character creation. Indeed, modders should have the ability to create an entirely new game uising the core system, if they wished. All this connected to the Steam workshop so modders could really enjoy themselves too. This means the game needs a mod-manager for deciding what to run, once you've downloaded it from Steam.

** NOTE: I haven't figured out how many tens of millions of dollars would be needed. Realistically, I would want the engineering, art and production leads working with me to provide a sound estimate. I figure $20 to $30 million, and at least 2 1/2 years, plus however long it takes to assemble the core development team (maybe another half year?). With less money, I'd have the scale down the wish list, but at less than half that, the trade-offs become so great that neither you nor I would be happy with the result.

Go to the thread if you want to see more (or maybe to ask your questions.)

Apparently he's currently semi-retired and playing games he wanted to play: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198022734065

Semi-retired 33 year veteran of the computer game industry as game designer and producer of simulation, strategy, action and role-playing games at everything from struggling start-ups to global publishers. Now finally (!!) has a chance to dig into all the games he could only dabble with in the past.

He's very active at CK2 Steam forum, heh: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198022734065/posthistory/

(Also he owns Dungeon Rats, but not AoD, and played few hours of HoniePop. )
 

Kev Inkline

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10 Million sounds like a big budget. I would produce a game of similar scope for 1M.

Breakdown of costs:
  1. Pyke for 100k to do graphics,
  2. Styg 100k for mechanics and programming,
  3. MCA primary writing for 200k,
  4. Vince 100K to take care of general management,
  5. Irenaeus for 50K - social media strategy,
  6. 20K to MRY for consulting on proper usage of the more esoteric adjectives.

Leaves 430K for blackjack and hookers.
 
Last edited:

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
From the sounds of it, a Darklands sequel would be an MMO if he could do it, which would be pretty decline.

Hendrick isn't much of a nostalgist. See our interview with him: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8246

RPG Codex: What, in your view, has changed about video game, and in particular CRPG, design today compared to the time you were designing Darklands? Are there certain design trends that are worrisome to you or, on the contrary, that you especially appreciate?

I am never one to complain about the “direction” of gaming. I observe what does and does not work in various games, what makes and loses money. A designer must be informed by all this experience and knowledge in order to make a new “great” game. In a sense, any good designer must be a knowledgeable “games historian.”

In post-Darklands RPGs, I greatly admired Baldur’s Gate (1998) and its sequel. I consider them the finest and most polished “control a party” RPGs ever made. The original Diablo was a great one-character slug-fest with tons of replayability, but the interplay of story and characters was much less.

With the advent of Everquest in 1999, full 3D MMORPGs became the dominant form of RPG gaming through today. However, recent difficulties of SWTOR and 38 Studios suggest that the era of gigantic budget-busting MMORPGs is ending. There is still plenty of life left in the genre, provided you exercise business judgment and design creativity. I’d love a chance to lead an MMORPG team, especially after showing how a successful one can be done in just two years on a $15 million budget. Alas, I doubt it will happen. There are already too many other people occupying or trying to occupy all available positions.

Frankly, I believe the next “big” (financially viable) platform for RPGs is tablets. Look at the success of relatively unsophisticated games like Battleheart or Heroes vs Monsters on iOS!
 

Hobo Elf

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From the sounds of it, a Darklands sequel would be an MMO if he could do it, which would be pretty decline.

Hendrick isn't much of a nostalgist. See our interview with him: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8246

RPG Codex: What, in your view, has changed about video game, and in particular CRPG, design today compared to the time you were designing Darklands? Are there certain design trends that are worrisome to you or, on the contrary, that you especially appreciate?

I am never one to complain about the “direction” of gaming. I observe what does and does not work in various games, what makes and loses money. A designer must be informed by all this experience and knowledge in order to make a new “great” game. In a sense, any good designer must be a knowledgeable “games historian.”

In post-Darklands RPGs, I greatly admired Baldur’s Gate (1998) and its sequel. I consider them the finest and most polished “control a party” RPGs ever made. The original Diablo was a great one-character slug-fest with tons of replayability, but the interplay of story and characters was much less.

With the advent of Everquest in 1999, full 3D MMORPGs became the dominant form of RPG gaming through today. However, recent difficulties of SWTOR and 38 Studios suggest that the era of gigantic budget-busting MMORPGs is ending. There is still plenty of life left in the genre, provided you exercise business judgment and design creativity. I’d love a chance to lead an MMORPG team, especially after showing how a successful one can be done in just two years on a $15 million budget. Alas, I doubt it will happen. There are already too many other people occupying or trying to occupy all available positions.

Frankly, I believe the next “big” (financially viable) platform for RPGs is tablets. Look at the success of relatively unsophisticated games like Battleheart or Heroes vs Monsters on iOS!

I remember this interview. He sounded like the deulded kind of dev who would gravitate toward the market areas of what he thinks are easy money, i.e MMOs which were still hot items in 2012. Also, tablets were not and still aren't the next "big" platform for RPGs. He was wrong about everything.
 

Shadenuat

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10+ million of dollars
ku-xlarge.jpg
 

Tigranes

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Darklands 2 confirmed, Hendrick's natural death just needs to happen first

Where are our Bulgarians
 

octavius

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The time and money required seems excessive for a remake, seeing as the basic design is already in place, but then Mr. Hendrick said that amateurs tend to underestimate those things.
 

LESS T_T

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http://steamcommunity.com/app/327930/discussions/0/343788552550787364/?tscn=1484177713

Scythesickle

Hey, good to get a chance to send a message at you :) Darklands probably has the best game manual I've ever read. Still love to go through it. I'm sure others have gone over my own favorite features of the game, from the strength/endurance system, to the different weapon attributes, the open-ended adventuring (as opposed to rigid questing that seems popular now, probably because it's easier to catch bugs that way? Less fun, in my opinion), the Traveller style character creation, the as-the-people-would-have-imagined-it perspective, to the alternative way to handle magic and downtime that I feel have yet to be rivaled.

One thing I think about a lot, something you brought up on Matt Chat and here, is your preference now for a database system in order to manage variables. As someone curious about game design, I was wondering if you had any more to say on that front. It seems like a lot of the more ambitious games now tend to either back away from their ambition toward the end of development, or lose track of all of what they're trying to do and introduce a lot of errors. I'm guessing what you mean is to have all the quest data, accumulated player character and party attributes, faction stats, unique items, et al all stored in lists that could interrelate, allowing for the system to be used by a quest designer to, say, make the person who happens to be holding the crown to be targeted by creatures trying to steal it back, etc, rather than trying to spend extra time programming it all out each time a new quest was designed, and search for individual values in large lists that may wind up being cluttered and more prone to error. Or am I misunderstanding?

Also, my limited experience of Scrum was not a positive one, but maybe there were other problems contributing to why this was so. I guess some structure and regular expectations would tend to help matters, but I can't help but wonder if the problem hasn't quite been cracked yet, at least not for all sizes of teams.

Finally, have you had a chance to talk to the folks at Oblivion? Some of them seem to be fans of your work, at the very least! :)

Thanks for your time.

Arnold Hendrick said:
@Scythesickle - I'll do my best to answer all your questions.

I see you are aware of most of the PnP influences at work in the Darklands design, such as Travellerr.


(1) Databases and RPGs.

I probably expressed the concept poorly by using the term "database." Darklands was created long before the concept of "data driven design" was coined. Nevertheless, you have understood the basic idea.

The only sane way to build an RPG is to put nearly everything in the form of data tables - character attributes, weapon stats, armor stats, world stats, etc. All this can be stored in some kind of database, which the program logic accesses to resolve any situation, from conversation to combat. Based on my subsequent professional experience, a "flat file" database system is preferable to a "relational" database. While you can create multi-dimensional links and lookups in a relational DB, the design quickly becomes insanely complicated, especially when a designer has to make adjustments months, or sometimes years, after the original dat a was put into the game.

Personally, for most games, a full-blown database is unnecessary. I use spreadsheets to present the data in human-readable form, and then have csv, xml, or json versions of the same data to make it machine readable (i.e., accessible to program code). While programmers prefer xml or json, I prefer csv, since of the three, only csv can be seamlessly imported back and forth between human-readable and machine-readable form. I can't tell you how many times, on different projects, we've struggled getting data from "quick fix" xml or json files back into the master xlsx spreadsheet. Whenever we failed to do this, we lost sight of what data was really inside the game, leading to all sorts of bugs, mistaken fixes, or major reworks.

Now, sometimes a data value isn't fixed in a spreadsheet (i.e., game data), but instead is a constantly changing game value (like opinion or "faction" values, weather, etc.). In this case, the designer's job is to make sure the ALGORTHIMS (equations, and/or if-then-else logic) is documented, including the meaning of value levels, max and min limits, etc. If the programmers have to adjust this for code reasons, the designer needs to change his documentation. Otherwise, in six months or three years you'll have no earthly idea how to deal with a bug report without consuming a half day to a half week of programming time tracking down exactly what the code is doing.


(2) Game Development Process.

I have worked as a contributing designer, lead designer, and producer on various projects using Scrum. That means I've been both a "worker" and a "leader" at different times. The smallest was as three-person team, and the largest was a 120-person MMORPG with eight scrum teams and a couple art kanban groups. All of these followed the late 2000s to early 2010s style of scrum, recognizable to Certified Scrum Masters (CSM) anywhere. In every case, the project went more smoothly, and was more predictable overall, than ANY other software projects I've worked on in my 33 years of experience in software development. And believe me, I've seen a LOT of different stuff tried, including no formal project management whatsoever.

Of course, any project management system or software development process can go badly, since software development requires teamwork. That means working with other people, which exposes you to all the issues possible in the "human condition." People are imperfect. When they try to work together, imperfections can multiply togetherr as well as cancelled out.


(3) Professional Invitations & Interaction

To my knowledge, nobody from Bethesda or Zenimax has contacted me about design ideas, much less a job. Have some of them talked about Darklands?

I would have loved a senior design or production role in just about any significant RPG project, solo, multiplayer, or massively multiplayer. I tried on and off for such a role at various companies since the early 2000s. But game design jobs don't work like that. You have to fit into their openings, as well as their preconceptions. Senior design roles usually go to friends, since there is no easy yardstick for measuring professional ability.

I have received no job invitations, or even inquiries, based on any of my past computer game design work, with one part-time contract work exception in 2014. I include past work in my resume, so experience does help. But experience has not been an instant meal-ticket. Most times, finding a new job took about six months of hard work responding to ads and openings, crafting cover letters and recasting my resume toward their needs, as well as doing my best to network with professional acquaintances.

Usually, my association with specific past games, Darklands in particular, has been coincidental. For example, a few years back, when I was producer at one company, and then as senior designer at another, a few months into the job a couple different co-workers asked, "Oh, are you the Arnold Hendrick who did Darklands?"

All this is probably because I refused to spend time on self-promotion, propogandize my skills and contributions, or spend time courting the game press for fame. In hindsight, this was a huge mistake. If I'd been more of a blow-hard, I would have had more opportunities to work on really big, challenging projects.

My advice to future game designers is to attach themselves to potentially big-financial-win game projects (of ANY sort). Do enough work on the game to help it get out, and make friends with co-workers, but never neglect to burnish your reputation and public image. Take every possible opportunity to be a spokesman for some part of a game project, preferably as much as possible. Work hard to make your name recognizable, preferably in a positive way, but ANY recognition is better than none (just ask John Romero).


To my knowledge, nobody from Bethesda or Zenimax has contacted me about design ideas, much less a job. Have some of them talked about Darklands?

I would have loved a senior design or production role in just about any significant RPG project, solo, multiplayer, or massively multiplayer.

Hmmm. Wonder if he knows about Sawyer's potential historical RPG. (Though that's probably at least a few years away.)
 

rezaf

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I dunno, if I had an open Lead Game Designer position for my Darklands 2 project and would invite the guy without knowing of his role in the original, and then prose him the questions he tackled above and would get those same replies, I'd probably go "Don't call us, we'll call you!" and he'd never hear from me again.

Because, from my perspective, he wants to go into a lot of directions I wouldn't want my DL2 project to go. He's also very incoherent - his "what would you have done differently" include stuff he would have done differently back in the day (project management, translation, data storage) but also many things he would like to do if he were to make a sequel today (fancy 3d models etc.).
 

iluvatar

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His 10 million estimate is way off. A faithful sequel to Darklands without any of the bells and whistles of AAA gaming shouldn't even cost 1 million to make, let alone 10.

Thankfully he's not the only person capable of designing a menu-driven medieval sandbox RPG. I'm sure that a small group of fans could produce a better sequel than the one he's envisioning on a modest kickstarter budget.
 

Kev Inkline

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I dunno, if I had an open Lead Game Designer position for my Darklands 2 project and would invite the guy without knowing of his role in the original, and then prose him the questions he tackled above and would get those same replies, I'd probably go "Don't call us, we'll call you!" and he'd never hear from me again.

I agree.

In general, which of the old geezers that have done great things in the distant past would you trust today? Molyneux? Chris Roberts (well, that's still open, but looks bad)?
 

kris

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Speaking of UI, a much better UI for character creation is needed. Players should be navigating along a tree to see a character's past career and future choices, benefits and risks of each decision, and a side-box showing how character stats have changed. Right now you're "flying blind" unless you squint almost endlessly at the hint book. Character "backstory" created during generation should be available throughout the game in more detail.

i really like the idea of a character creation like this. Of course it work best within the concept of certain games. I think it would be a great fit with a Mount and blade like game as player age and position is more of a factor there. Obviously the reason it is not used in many "normal" RPGs are because their line of progression is generally from "noob" to "master" or "demi-God"; and then you normally start as someone quite young.
 

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