KickStarter Dead State: Reanimated

[Lhynn]

and now you are calling me a retard rather than answering the very simple question why it's not ok for the game to have a guy in a wheelchair be capable of doing some thing he couldn't in real life without explaining it, but it's perfectly ok for the game to have objects act in ways they would normally be incapable of, like the aforementioned indestructible storefront windows, without explaining it at all, seeing how both of these are the result of gameplay concessions for the sake of being able to finish writing it in a timely manner without introducing too much overhead capable of bugging shit out for little additional effect. the way i see it, you are perfectly fine with accepting way bigger bullshit than superhero wheelchair man merely because it's bullshit you are used to and thus don't even give it a second glance.

Dude, what is the big fucking mystery? Its the equivalent of having a small rock in spec of the line grapple a bunch of dudes. You accept the reality the fictional work presents to you, in this case it is one very much like our own, the only exception is that there are zombies. A cripple building a fucking tower is a completely different fantasy.

yes, science, not technology. science such as sociology, psychology, or the root of all sciences, philosophy are all perfectly fine foundations for sci-fi. a disaster where some bacteria mutate to have devastating effects on humans, causing them to go feral attack uninfected people, the infection rapidly spreading, bigger societal structures collapsing as a result, and the emergence and methods of survival of smaller units, focusing on one of those in particular, is both sci-fi and survival. those things aren't mutually exclusive.

Yeah, who said otherise?

the game doesn't try hard to make you believe and immerse yourself in it at all. it has tb combat, overhead view, forced concrete responses which always make you cringe and be annoyed why there isn't a response available which is more to your liking and you think would make more sense in the given situations, it has a cat communicating via the narrative descriptions, ammo that doesn't weight anything at all, despite being a resource, ridiculously cringeworthy scenes like the abortion mhc described, and a ton of other immersion breakers too numerous to list, all for the sake of gameplay rather than immersion, just like the guy in the wheelchair who, thanks to his skills and the fact that he actually can work on all shelter upgrades, doesn't turn into a completely obsolete npc whom you would shoot instantly if you just could take him out into the field.
i get that that one thing is an immersion breaker for you, but that doesn't change the fact that the game is full of other shit like it, right from the start, before you even get a chance to notice that he's better at building a watchtower than some of your other starting allies, or that it is a rather minor issue

It may be minor, but it took me right out of it. Im not that far into the game to have experienced the rest, and yeah the dialogue and responses are often retarded, i have pointed that out in the past.

 

[Telengard]

Hmm. Since grognard is French for grumblers (so the singular really should be grognon, but this how language mutates and such), I hereby declare myself a jouisseur. Unless someone knows a French term for someone who's the opposite of a grumbler I'd like better.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Best thing about it is that Jouisseur kinda sounds like "Josh Sawyer"...

 

[ST'Ranger]

This thread is a black hole of ignorance and what looks like apologetics.

Can someone explain to me, perhaps through example, how the combat in this game is supposed to be good? I don't have the game, but a little investigation makes the combat seem quite limited in scope and... well just not interesting. There don't seem to be interesting problems to solve aside from the meta-problem of noise production risk/reward etc. In fact, a great deal of opinions I hear of the game say that it is good despite the combat. I am open to persuasion.

 

[WhiteGuts]

That is why i said "cultist" as someone who actually believes in bullshit and he is happy because of that.

Hmm. Since grognard is French for grumblers (so the singular really should be grognon, but this how language mutates and such), I hereby declare myself a jouisseur. Unless someone knows a French term for someone who's the opposite of a grumbler I'd like better.

Grognon is the dominant version, actually. Grognard is almost never used, and when it is, it's almost always a direct reference to Napoleon. Also the opposite could be "joyeux", or "gai" (lul).

 

[Cosmo]

That is why i said "cultist" as someone who actually believes in bullshit and he is happy because of that.

Hmm. Since grognard is French for grumblers (so the singular really should be grognon, but this how language mutates and such), I hereby declare myself a jouisseur. Unless someone knows a French term for someone who's the opposite of a grumbler I'd like better.

Grognon is the dominant version, actually. Grognard is almost never used, and when it is, it's almost always a direct reference to Napoleon. Also the opposite could be "joyeux", or "gai" (lul).

"Bon-vivant" is good too.

 

[GloomFrost]

This thread is a black hole of ignorance and what looks like apologetics.

Can someone explain to me, perhaps through example, how the combat in this game is supposed to be good? I don't have the game, but a little investigation makes the combat seem quite limited in scope and... well just not interesting. There don't seem to be interesting problems to solve aside from the meta-problem of noise production risk/reward etc. In fact, a great deal of opinions I hear of the game say that it is good despite the combat. I am open to persuasion.

I dont know who told you that combat was good. Developers? It is not too bad at the beginning but gets sooo boring later on in the game. I mean some maps are crawling with enemies and it takes ages to get rid of them. There is almost no tactics you just bash zombies and marauders in the head again and again and AGAIN. The dialogues and group events every morning are amazingly fun and well done HELL YEAH! But they take only a small fraction of the actual game compared to hours of boring and clunky combat.

 

[SniperHF]

I dont know who told you that combat was good. Developers? It is not too bad at the beginning but gets sooo boring later on in the game. I mean some maps are crawling with enemies and it takes ages to get rid of them. There is almost no tactics you just bash zombies and marauders in the head again and again and AGAIN. The dialogues and group events every morning are amazingly fun and well done HELL YEAH! But they take only a small fraction of the actual game compared to hours of boring and clunky combat.

I think what creates this is the lack of danger from Zombies is how weak they are. You are obviously not intended to bash every zombies brains in but in gameplay terms there's no reason not to. It's hardly dangerous and on occasion they have parts or food on them. So why not kill them? Even on the combat side I'd say there are some tactical decisions to make. But once you know the routine it's automatic and no longer interesting. It becomes obvious that killing a zombie within a certain distance of another will trigger it. Which ones to avoid and which ones to take out so they don't come get you later.

In big maps I've taken to tossing a fire cracker or two and grouping them all up. Then ignoring them.

Great example from my most recent excursion. I was in the Lampasas shelter cafeteria and went in the fridge area. Some noise I made triggered a bunch of zombies across the room by the vending machine. I was actually surprised by this given how far away they were, cool. But what should have been an interesting event was watered down because all 4 zombies that wandered on over were all fed through a single file line behind a counter.

One of my chief complaints about the beta still exists too despite the enhanced healing system. There is no reason ever to take a less than optimal combat party.

I don't even think the dialogs are all that well done but I do like the personality clash stuff and crisis events. The data system is cool too. And I'm just an exploration whore so Dead State scratches that itch for me. Especially in the bigger maps.

 

[34scell]

Well I have a melee party to clear out regular locations, a ranged party to clear out npc shelters, and a survivalist party to scoop up loot quickly and harvest.

 

[Roguey]

You are obviously not intended to bash every zombies brains in but in gameplay terms there's no reason not to. It's hardly dangerous and on occasion they have parts or food on them. So why not kill them?

Looks like one doesn't need an xp incentive to indulge in repetitive map-clearing combat after all.

 

[34scell]

Looting gives you xp

 

[GloomFrost]

I don't know man. I was bored out of my freaking skull after a few hours of zombie bashing. XP or not. But considering that map clearing takes around 80% of an entire game (if not more) well.....
Btw who knows how many days do you need to survive to "win"?

 

[TheEntitledOne]

A couple asked me to trade food for medicine with them, and point at a farm in the map. But the cunts won't show up. I'm not sure if I messed something up or what, anyone knows what to do?

I'm retarded. If a morning event tells you to go to point X next day, you go there the next day, not the current day. Derp.

 

[Zombra]

Btw who knows how many days do you need to survive to "win"?

Spoiler over here.

 

[GloomFrost]

Btw who knows how many days do you need to survive to "win"?

Spoiler over here.

NO WAAAY!!! I am only like day 30 or something. Thank you very much but no thanx!
(Goes back to playing Underrail)

 

[Forest Dweller]

Btw who knows how many days do you need to survive to "win"?

Spoiler over here.

I assumed that was more like the original Fallout timer (i.e. you have to succeed by then or you lose).

 

[ST'Ranger]

I have to say that it's a strategically poor choice to have a game which is dominated (temporally) by combat to have limited support for interesting combat. It seems to me that NEO Scavenger-style combat would have suited the flavor and intention of this game better.

 

[Roguey]

Looting gives you xp

Ha, well then.

As I predicted, Brian made his game bigger than what the core gameplay could support. A developer once again refused to pay heed to the words of the Codex Cassandra and paid the price.

 

[GloomFrost]

I have to say that it's a strategically poor choice to have a game which is dominated (temporally) by combat to have limited support for interesting combat. It seems to me that NEO Scavenger-style combat would have suited the flavor and intention of this game better.

What do you mean "temporarily"? I m 100% it will stay like that for the rest of the game. 20 mins of dialogues and fun social banter in the morning, 2 hours of zombie bashing for the rest of the day. Yeah neo scavenger mechanic would be perfect or at least something like the Banner Saga.
They also promised to introduce an "iron man" difficulty mode. Although I fail to see how will it make things better. The combat will take like 3 times longer and you would need to load after every little mistake. Wooohooo

 

[Cassidy]

The problems are not with the basics of the combat system, but with implementation and with the current difficulty of the game as a whole: poorly designed encounters devoid of challenge, infections and resource scarcity being almost complete non-issues and easy combat to the point there is zero motivation to avoid it other than for getting through faster, very differently from AoD, where combat has less trash mobs and much more difficulty, even with an optimal player character for it.

The worst problems there can be fixed with a rebalance patch.

Even better if most areas had more looters and living hostiles and very few zombies and most zombies would be spawned through excessive noise.

 

[ST'Ranger]

I have to say that it's a strategically poor choice to have a game which is dominated (temporally) by combat to have limited support for interesting combat. It seems to me that NEO Scavenger-style combat would have suited the flavor and intention of this game better.

What do you mean "temporarily"? I m 100% it will stay like that for the rest of the game. 20 mins of dialogues and fun social banter in the morning, 2 hours of zombie bashing for the rest of the day. Yeah neo scavenger mechanic would be perfect or at least something like the Banner Saga.
They also promised to introduce an "iron man" difficulty mode. Although I fail to see how will it make things better. The combat will take like 3 times longer and you would need to load after every little mistake. Wooohooo

Notice I did not say "temporarily".

The problems are not with the basics of the combat system, but with implementation and with the current difficulty of the game as a whole: poorly designed encounters devoid of challenge, infections and resource scarcity being almost complete non-issues and easy combat to the point there is zero motivation to avoid it other than for getting through faster, very differently from AoD, where combat has less trash mobs and much more difficulty, even with an optimal player character for it.

The worst problems there can be fixed with a rebalance patch.

Even better if most areas had more looters and living hostiles and very few zombies and most zombies would be spawned through excessive noise.

You claim that the problem does not lie with the combat mechanics but with the implementation of those mechanics. However, your only combat-related point seems to be that it isn't difficult enough. Resource scarity and, to some degree, infections are meta-combat considerations that do not interact with the combat mechanics. From the perspective of someone interested in the game but who does not own it, the difficulty of the combat seems to be a red herring - it is the mechanics themselves which seem unengaging and lacking interesting features.

Most of the combat seems to consist of a small handful of uninteresting decisions. Do I stand next to the guy this turn? Do I shoot the zombie with my gun or do I hit it with a wrench? There are various mechanisms at play that can enhance these actions. Things that make one better at wrench-smacking or gun-aiming, things that improve one's ability to stand next to (or far away from) the enemy. However, there seems to be a critical lack of mechanisms which create decisions/options apart from the yawn-inducing ones I've mentioned.

I don't see how giving zombies more HP or making them more lethal or designing encounters differently will encourage the creation of interesting decision-making. You're still left with the "do I stand next to them?/do I shoot or whack them?" class of uninteresting decisions - except now it takes longer and the tedium of combat grows even more. The problem seems to be not that the combat mechanics are not fully realized but that they are too limited in depth for every encounter not to devolve into uninteresting decisions.

 

[SniperHF]

Looting gives you xp

Ha, well then.

As I predicted, Brian made his game bigger than what the core gameplay could support. A developer once again refused to pay heed to the words of the Codex Cassandra and paid the price.

I would add a caveat to that though. Looting doesn't directly give you XP. You gain Skill points to spend after reaching certain thresholds for looting. Collect 250 food or give 5 special items to allies, both found through looting. The thing is though is it's unnecessary to kill and loot every zombie to reach these since the loot zombies provide is small. Very small in comparison to containers.

So ideally since you don't receive direct experience from killing a zombie you would avoid the ones not in your way. Except in my experience most of them are in your way. So the mechanical incentives for killing zombies still isn't really there despite getting peripheral character advancement through looting. But the zombie placements make it such that killing them just makes more sense. Especially to someone new to the game who isn't necessarily aware that the pittance of loot zombies carry isn't worth the time.

If health were an actual resource you needed to worry about and not something you could easily heal with an instant healing bag I think a lot of these issues go away. Fighting everything you see starts to take on a real cost. Dead State is played in days so if you happen to lose 40-50 HP on a character that impacts your ability to go in more dangerous areas on a specific map. So on that day you'd have to either risk taking an injured character into an area that might contain more lethal human enemies or going to safer areas with less potential reward. Perhaps instead you go back to the shelter and switch out the ally for someone else. All of those things cost time. Time in Dead State = resources since resources are consumed over time at an increasing rate as you gain more allies.. Time is the only fixed and imposing resource in Dead State but since you can do whatever whenever you want it has no teeth. Get rid of instant healing and Dead State begins to have some challenge.

 

[34scell]

Zombies drop parts and bullets in similar quantities to containers (which shouldn't be the case, since finding single bullets on corpses is pretty immersion breaking, like something out of RE4).

The base healing mechanics seem fine to me, it's just that the balancing is totally fucked. You heal too much, too quickly and there's too much medicine everywhere.

 

[oscar]

- Way less medicine. Even fighting recklessly you end up with way more than you could ever conceivably use up. Even a average medic heals most of your health with just one med kit charge

- Zombie whacking is virtually risk free if you're methodical and position decently. Which is as it should be really. Once you get some decent armour you'd have to be falling asleep for zombies to be a real menace. I do like that the serious threat is looters, gangs, ex-soldiers etc instead of some BS super zombies who can run across the map in a single turn and have 500 hp. Melee for zombies, save the bullets for the humans.

- What the fuck up is with the morale rating? Everyone's telling me we've got tons more space and gets upset if I turn people down yet my morale tanks from accepting newcomers even though we've got plenty of food, power, antibiotics, no casualties etc. Felt weird getting sent into a downwards morale spiral from accepting people even when everything was going fine but even 'Content' survivors give you -40 or something. Feels stupid having to turn people down even though I know I could easily support them just to keep my morale from freefalling.

- Fucked up the fence repair as I accidentally built a well and didn't have enough parts left over to fix it before the inevitable zombie attack. I guess it's an okay mechanic

 

[SniperHF]

- What the fuck up is with the morale rating? Everyone's telling me we've got tons more space and gets upset if I turn people down yet my morale tanks from accepting newcomers even though we've got plenty of food, power, antibiotics, no casualties etc. Felt weird getting sent into a downwards morale spiral from accepting people even when everything was going fine but even 'Content' survivors give you -40 or something. Feels stupid having to turn people down even though I know I could easily support them just to keep my morale from freefalling.

Early on morale will be low. I think you always gain an instant double digit boost from a new ally. But then as you mentioned their mood is usually bad so it erodes the whole shelter. Once you get a watch tower, well, garden, and start to explore locations past day 15 or so your morale should start to shoot up. Big hauls of food (>50) and parts give you a boost to morale on that day. I usually give my unique morale boost items to new allies on the day they arrive and try to get them to content. Once you have 10-15 allies and you can fill all the morale boosting jobs like custodian, guard, and maintenance. Guard duty is especially morale boosting as you get a bonus with a full staff.