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Vapourware Deadhold, a Myth-like real-time tactics game - CANCELLED

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I believe this game was mentioned on the Codex a few years ago:





COMMAND YOUR ARMY. HACK YOUR ENEMY TO PIECES. TURN THE HILLS RED.
Deadhold is a gore infused, fast-action, tactical RTS. With support for up to 4 coop players, the gritty dark fantasy world of Deadhold comes to life through its story driven campaign. In multiplayer, Deadhold supports up to 8 players in teams or 4 players in free for all, and a variety of game modes.

A NEW KIND OF RTS
Deadhold’s gameplay is a unique mix of real-time tactics essentials like strategic positioning, unit classes, and physically based simulation similar to such classic games as Myth and Dawn of War 2, combined with the items, loot, and leveling found in action RPGs like Diablo and Path Of Exile. The result is a fresh take on the tactical RTS that should delight fans of both RTS and ARPG genres.

Battles in Deadhold are physically modeled. The flight of an arrow is realistically simulated and will embed inside a units head, arms, legs or chest. Unit movement is based on physics, increasing the value of tactical positioning: A line of warriors can block incoming enemies or force them to engage or go around. The explosive bomb wielded by the Sapper can literally dismember units as body parts explode and fly into the air. Injuries and severed limbs stain the ground realistically with blood.

CAMPAIGN
A dark force has risen in the west, obliterating any who stand in its wake. The last living races have banded together to change the course of fate, setting Deadhold's campaign in motion. Told from the perspective of the narrator, you'll uncover the history of the blight, and the truth that lies behind their creation. The 16 mission campaign challenges you to wield the power of the gods, using tactics and strategy to overcome the onslaught of an overwhelming evil force.

In campaign, the scale of Deadhold’s player choice becomes clear. As a paragon of the Empire, players will choose a Deity in which to specialize. Spells are unlocked as players earn experience, allowing them to customize their play style. Players can further customize their builds by slotting relics, runes, and gems, which can drop from defeated enemies.

A tier based leveling system adds significant replay value to the campaign missions. As players progress through each tier, new and greater challenges and rewards await them: boss-fights, different enemy patrols and tactics, additional mission objectives, and higher quality items.

MULTIPLAYER
Competitive multiplayer in Deadhold supports team and free for all play, with up to 8 players in a variety of maps and gamemodes. Leaderboards and tournaments are planned additions during Steam Early Access.

Coming to Steam Early Access on August 25.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,541
It is obviously inspired by Myth, but damn, those graphics and twitch-multiplayer-rts UI are huge neon warning sign.
 
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"Dark Fantasy"

Say what you want about the edginess of dark fantasy, but it is infinitely preferable to having clown vomit all over the screen and the most generic unit designs of all time as seen here. Myth had a fantastic tone and atmosphere, whereas the only thing that stuck with me after watching the Deathold teaser trailer is the goblin's retarded giggling.
 

gongal

Educated
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Messages
96
Bought it, played it for a little bit. The artstyle is literally unbearable, like how could anyone think that making Myth look like a League of Lesbians clone would be a good idea. Also characters are animated even worse than 20 years old sprites used in the original games... Shit broke my heart.
 

MachineCommander

Educated
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
46
Played the tutorial and first mission as it's the only currently available mission. They're supposedly releasing new missions every few weeks, but here's a breakdown:
  • "Casualty" voice over sucks.
  • Friendly Fire is on by default, thank God.
  • Dwarven cocktails Goblin Sapper bombs do not detonate sometimes and can be blown up from another bomb.
  • It's gory and bodies ragdoll as seen in the trailer. Torsos can be pushed around and spread blood around the battlefield by a unit walking into it.
  • Basic controls are almost exactly like Myth with the difference being the number keys selecting formation and the format keys grouping your units. Double tapping any of the formation keys will widen the distance between your troops so they're not so tightly packed. It also seems like every unit has a special ability but nothing happens when I pressed it so it's likely they haven't implemented it yet.
  • Tutorial plays exactly like Myth's tutorial.
  • When starting up a campaign mission, they have the choice of Normal, Hard, and one other difficulty (there's two other difficulties that are locked right now) that's recommended for your Account level. You can also increase the challenge of each difficulty so you can get a higher item drop rate percentage, but I haven't tried it out.
  • Mission briefings are exactly like Myth, the voice acting for the narrator was decent.
  • First mission basically has you defending a unit from a small horde of enemies.
  • Starting each level presents you with preset loadouts with deities and starting units, but you can create your own custom loadout by mixing and matching deities (which affects your spells) as well as what units you have. Basic preset was 6 warriors, 3 rangers, and 1 sapper so I just went with that.
  • Spells seem to only really to buffs and debuffs I believe, like improving unit strength or slowing enemies, that kind of thing. I didn't bother using them. Same goes with the starting items you get, Healing Potion and Resurrection. Spells and Items consume Soul Essence which you obtain by slaying enemies. I didn't really pay attention but I don't think it's a quick grind for essence, could be wrong but I didn't bother using any of that.
  • It seems like their pushing for this to be a "multiplayer" experience, campaign can be played with 3 other people, you obtain experience for your Profile level which seems to unlock further passive upgrades and spells. I'm going to ignore it for as long as possible but I wouldn't be surprised if higher difficulties might depend on those abilities.
  • Every unit has random names and it tracks how many kills they have.
  • Victory/Defeat statistic page isn't implemented yet.
  • Current Light(?) units are: Warrior, Ranger, Goblin Sapper (Dwarf), and Barbarian (Berserk)
  • Current Undead units are, that I've seen: Draugr (Thrall), Lurker(?)(Ghols), I didn't check the name of their ranged unit but they're basically Soulless
  • Essentially the units are exactly the same as Myth's unit's currently.
  • The cartoony aesthetic needs to be changed or at least, a little more saturated? The Undead's units are uninspired though, those need to be improved.
  • It did start to get sluggish when more units started popping up on screen, I don't know if it's the game or if it was my computer.
That's all I can remember from what I played. It has promise and has the basics from Myth nailed down so I won't be refunding it like I thought I was going to.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,684
This actually looks pretty decent. I've only played Myth II, but I do agree that the cartoony aesthetic here is a bit of a letdown. There was a real oppressive feel to Myth's world and it was incredibly consistent straight through the narrator, the graphics, the level designs, and the gameplay.
 
Joined
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Messages
5,894
Myth is a tragically forgotten gem of a series. Even the shit 3rd one was alright, the first two games are absolute classics. Fuck Bungie.

I'd be excited for this game but I'm a battered cynical old man, it's probably garbage.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
I'm confused by some of the complaints, as the art style doesn't look all that different from how I remember actual Myth gameplay (as opposed to briefing) looking, and the annoying goblin laughter seems less annoying than the dwarves' laughter in Myth itself? Still, probably not very good, so much of Myth turned on its production values being through the roof (for the era), whereas this has terrible production values (for the era), and I doubt the gameplay is as good in any event.
 

MachineCommander

Educated
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
46
Turns out this was a scam: http://steamcommunity.com/games/deadhold/announcements/detail/1598082909734377508

Unfortunately, I've decided to halt development on Deadhold. I've put in a ticket to remove Deadhold from the Steam store, and the servers will remain live for 3 months.

We've let our community and players down, and this is clearly not what we had in mind when we started Deadhold four years ago. Thank you everyone for the enormous amount of support and trust you gave us these last 4 years, and for the vision we had, I'm sorry we let you down. :(

Why we're ceasing development of Deadhold

Plain and simple, we can't afford to continue development. The cost for ongoing development exceeds revenue (and has for some time). Sales were well below our grimmest projections for a worst case. While I'm proud of the work we did, and the team we built, it still remains that we dropped the ball on the business side badly.

This, in conjunction with scoping too large, with some idealistic thinking sprinkled in, has brought us to the current situation.


Post Mortem

So, what the hell happened? Below is a brief post mortem on the last 3-4 years of development and how we ended up at this point. I hope this will help our community understand the sorts of pitfalls we encountered, where we think we went wrong, and maybe help other developers avoid some of the same mistakes.


Things we did Wrong

1. Marketing
We needed to put as much time and resources towards marketing and community building as we did on development. That's a bit of a catch-22, if you're a tiny team with a shoestring budget. We did put a significant amount of time and money towards marketing, but not nearly enough or in the right places. You need to have someone with connections to media, money to buy ads, or be able to put in enormous amounts of time and effort for grass roots marketing (or ideally, all three).

There's no getting around this, and with the saturation of amazing games on steam, its pretty brutal. (who doesnt have at _least_ 30 games they've bought that they're "going to play sometime")

2. The industry changes RAPIDLY
When we started development in 2014, steam and youtube were pretty different. Gaming on youtube was raining attention on games (at least it seemed so), and it was easy to think a really top quality and unique game could garner a lot of attention. We didn't assume we'd just have attention lavished on us, but we certainly were too optimistic in retrospect.

2. Scope
As seasoned game developers we felt we could punch above our weight. However, just because you can, it doesn't mean you can do so sustainably, or well enough to keep the company lights on.

We rationalized that single player, coop and competitive multiplayer were all requirements for a successful game. In retrospect, I felt coop horde was the core part of the game. So to other developers I say, hunt for the core of your game, and double and triple down on that, rather than expanding to do everything.

All the developers I know, work on games to make cool shit, with cool people. Reconciling the creative ambition with producing a product you can sell to people, and continue doing so ... is the true magic trick this industry constantly struggles with, _especially_ the indie sector.

3. Length of Development
The longer your development continues, the higher the chance some catastrophic project killing event will happen. While I'm listing moving to Unity was something we did right, in hindsight it was the right reason, but what we should have done is taken that opportunity to simultaneously scope it down agressively. (instead we did the opposite)

We continued through 3-4 years of development before launch, and were extremely lucky not to have life events impact us existentially before the launch date, but its a bit of a lottery. If your project is scoped correctly, you minimize that risk.

4. Over-Planning for Scale
This is a bit harder to list as a wrong, but specifically I wanted to point out that we opted for dedicated servers. The reasoning for this was to reduce latency, avoid disconnects killing whole games, and remove cheating as an issue for competitive games and tourneys. I personally feel (at least in retrospect) there's something to be said for starting using p2p and then building out a dedicated network given the resources.

We did some really neat things like writing bots using aws instances to stress test the login server and game server instances, but we never got to the point where that robustness was tested.


Things we did Right

1. Focusing on quality.
This is a double edged sword, but you really can't NOT focus on quality. High ratings are one of the best ways to ensure when people see your game, that they'll play it, and enjoy it. Why even bother making a game if you can't be proud of it?

2. Spending the time to solve hard problems
We took the time to really nail the formation system and pathfinding. The resurrection system was nearly a revelation when we first got it in. Don't be afraid to really drill down and tackle hard problems if they're core to your game.

2. Discord and having a hang out with testers
We dabbled with slack, and irc for a bit, but discord hit all the right notes. With discord we were able to grab crash logs, upload screenshots, have discussion channels etc. Simply put Discord was critical to building a support group around us to motivate us and inspire us.

3. Unity
The switch to Unity set us back, the game was completely rewritten, but the game was infinitely better for it.

4. Team
Last but not least, we had a really great team. We got lucky with our dev members being extremely talented, but we also had an amazing group of friends around us who helped us play, test, offer advice, and suggest crazy ideas that helped shape Deadhold into what it was. If you're making a game, I reccommend building a tight knit group of players and friends around you, its essential.

Last Words

There's no detailed map for charting indie development waters (and they shift all the time). When making decisions its rarely clear what choices are correct, and correct in what context. A lot of the above is going to seem stunningly obvious, but there's a difference between knowing something technically, and identifying situations by experience.

There's some regrets, but life's too short not to try.
Should've refunded when I had the chance.
:negative:
 

flyingjohn

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
2,961
Things we did Right:
3. Unity
The switch to Unity set us back, the game was completely rewritten, but the game was infinitely better for it.

No wonder they failed.
 

thesheeep

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Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Things we did Right:
3. Unity
The switch to Unity set us back, the game was completely rewritten, but the game was infinitely better for it.

No wonder they failed.
On the other hand, what did they use before? Could have been something worse.

I disagree with a part of their "what went wrong" list, though...

1. Marketing? Come on. How much time & money did Factorio invest into marketing? They Are Billions? Slime Rancher? Stardew Valley? There are many others...
Need to know someone with connections? What. You need to go into the communities, streamers and keep on communicating (not just pop up, do your ad and then leave). You need to have one "community manager" keeping track of all of these things - it's not something you can reliably do yourself if you are also developing. Not if you want sleep every now and then, anyway.
Mainstream sites are pretty much irrelevant for smaller titles - certainly a wasted effort.

In the end, what killed them is believing there is a large audience for this.
Which is something I cannot really imagine.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
In the end, what killed them is believing there is a large audience for this.
Which is something I cannot really imagine.

You mentioned They Are Billions. Gotta say I don't see why there couldn't potentially be a large-enough audience for a Myth-like game focused on horde combat when there is for They Are Billions. The overall concepts seem similar. This just has formation micromanagement instead of base-building.
 

thesheeep

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In the end, what killed them is believing there is a large audience for this.
Which is something I cannot really imagine.

You mentioned They Are Billions. Gotta say I don't see why there couldn't potentially be a large-enough audience for a Myth-like game focused on horde combat when there is one for They Are Billions. The overall concepts seem similar. This just has formation micromanagement instead of base-building.
Well, They Are Billions is a different take on a survival game (which are very popular right now). I think it has way more in common with RimWorld (another popular survival title) than with Deadhold.
The success of They Are Billions is of course surprising, nobody would've expected that much.

From what I saw, Deadhold seemed to be just "move your guys around, killing stuff, much gore". There really didn't seem to be anything else. Like a Crimsonland with army controls.
That's what I got from the screens and videos - and that just seemed VERY limited and pretty boring. And I sure wasn't the only one, don't think I ever saw it on Twitch, for example.

Also... Myth. Sorry, but nobody knows that game any more. It never had a huge following to begin with - and possibly for a reason. More of a small cult classic, like Arx Fatalis.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
5,541
Dude, wat. It still has a very active community and was universally acclaimed back in the day. Great sp campaigns and surprisingly popular mp. Definitely not a title I would use as an example of a forgotten game.
 

thesheeep

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Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Maybe not forgotten, but certainly not anywhere near the likes of AoE, Fallout, etc.
All of these spawned many either direct sequels or (ranging from utter shit to good) copycats.

I haven't really seen Myth mentioned anywhere except for within its own community (which is active, but certainly not big) or this very game.
Just look at how reviewers compare similar games to old games every now and then. Try and see how often Myth comes up in such a comparison ;) I couldn't remember a single time and sure look at lots of news and reviews of strategy titles.

If I had to bet on a name to carry my game, I wouldn't really bet on Myth.
 
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