Deus ex Vs Bloodlines

[Lilura]

Joke topic: Deus Ex is a GOAT-lvl title and Bloodlines can't even claim a top 5 spot in the pitiful lil' genre of cRPGs.

 

[HansDampf]

Of course Bloodlines is better in my opinion , but what really makes me wonder is that several people praised Deus Ex for better level design! I know that DX basically started the multiple solution to quest approach which is indeed praiseworthy, but the level design wasn't that great in my opinion. Besides everything being basically too dark and bland, just compare the two versions of Chinatown in the two games, the multiple solution approach was done so unimaginative that the DX franchise is still suffering from it! There is always a vent when you need one. You can always come in via the roof or the basement. Most buildings look like they were actually designed to make multiple approaches possible, not like real world buildings would be. Compare that e.g. to the beachhouse map in Bloodlines...

If you want to cherrypick, compare the beach house, which is the first main quest in Bloodlines, to the equivalent in Deus Ex, Liberty Island. The amount of freedom there is unchallenged, and you will find exactly one single vent in the entire map (letting you circumvent a laser trap). And it's not like Bloodlines doesn't have its share of convenient vents.

Also, Chinatown loses by default anyway, because Hong Kong has better music.

 

[Wesp5]

The amount of freedom there is unchallenged, and you will find exactly one single vent in the entire map (letting you circumvent a laser trap).

i wasn't talking about freedom, but level design being the result of it. I remember liberty island as a large dark open area with a few rectangular buildings. On the other hand the beach house looked like a building that could actually exist !

 

[Black]

Wesp5
Ash
Duke it out.

 

[Ash]

Wesp5 is a patch fag that doesn't bother fixing the excessively retarded elements of Bloodlines, such as the enemies that bark the same lines over and over in combat, or the accuracy system it copied from Deus Ex and butchered miserably in the process, or the severe lack of interactivity and oftentimes boring as shit level design (that has exceptional art direction, logical layout and bleeds atmosphere, but is just boring as shit to actually play). Those are the things I'd go for once the patching is out of the way.



In all seriousness those things may not be accessible to fix, and Wesp5 does fine work. Most of us have only played Bloodlines because of this man. I already thanked him for it years ago on the Steam forums.

 

[Black]

Sitra Achara
ToEE is better than either, right?

(if only Drogg was still alive)

 

[Wesp5]

...such as the enemies that bark the same lines over and over in combat...

Yeah, the enemy random lines are a problem. The game falls back to some generic ones as soon as there are no unique lines and as we can't add unique lines that would fit the professional voice-overs of Bloodlines we sadly can't fix this! Sometimes characters will even suddenly change the color of their voice because of that, although I think I fixed the female enemies talking with male voices at least...

...the accuracy system it copied from Deus Ex and butchered miserably in the process...

Can you explain this a bit more in detail? Is this about the crosshair size increasing? I only remember that in DX stats that influenced your accuracy also illogically influenced the damage.

the severe lack of interactivity and oftentimes boring as shit level design (that has exceptional art direction, logical layout and bleeds atmosphere, but is just boring as shit to actually play).

Well, when I was talking about good level design I was talking mostly about realism and atmosphere. And while I really can't be bothered to open every cupboard or drawer and move every item as in e.g. the Bethesda games, I still know that the Bloodlines maps leave a lot to be desired. Like inside and outside of buildings are different or there are no doors around to enter unused buildings at all! I tried to fix the worst of those that I noticed, but the only way to really improve this would be to decompile, edit and recompile all original maps. This is technically almost possible, but then again we have difficulties to reproduce the special lighting that the Troika compilers created so we would loose a lot of the special atmosphere, which would be worse in my opinion...

 

[Carrion]

Compare that e.g. to the beachhouse map in Bloodlines...

You mean that place you can enter via an extremely convenient hole in the fence, and which also has that extremely convenient junction box located right outside...

 

[Wesp5]

You mean that place you can enter via an extremely convenient hole in the fence, and which also has that extremely convenient junction box located right outside...

Exactly. I have got nothing against convenient stuff to give multiple solutions, but make it fit to the level! In all the DX games I played, 90% of these seemed to be vents...

But speaking of this, the GMDX mod claims to improve on the DX level design. Like filling empty areas with details and similar! Can you confirm this? Is it worth a replay?

 

[Ash]

Your previous post:

I know that DX basically started the multiple solution to quest approach which is indeed praiseworthy

Not even close. Ultima Underworld (1992)? Fallout?

but the level design wasn't that great in my opinion

The level design is some of the finest work in the 3D real-time space, primarily from a gameplay standpoint. Art direction on the other hand...

the multiple solution approach was done so unimaginative that the DX franchise is still suffering from it

Say what? The original game's execution in that regard was stellar.

There is always a vent when you need one. You can always come in via the roof or the basement

No, no and no. That's Human Revolution.

Most buildings look like they were actually designed to make multiple approaches possible, not like real world buildings would be

As they damn well should be. Loosely based in realism, but still ultimately serving gameplay. Unlike Bloodlines.

Compare that e.g. to the beachhouse map in Bloodlines...

Which is entirely linear, full of locked/static doors, and nothing is interactive inside. Deus Ex understands you can also achieve immersion via a method that also benefits gameplay: player agency.
The Beach house is also entirely worthless on replays. It only works once. That one time being very effective but I prefer Looking Glass longevity. Arx Fatalis and System Shock 2 had just as effective horror without making it overly scripted anyhow.

Most recent posts:

Can you explain this a bit more in detail? Is this about the crosshair size increasing? I only remember that in DX stats that influenced your accuracy also illogically influenced the damage.

The accuracy system in Deus Ex scales appropriately based on skill level (we can't ever have a revolver with 100% base accuracy in bloodines even with max gun skill for example), standing still tightens crosshairs so the player can actually hit the damn target and enjoy combat even at low skill level rather than being forced to rely almost entirely on RNG, further systems influence accuracy levels such as locational health, and there's plenty more choice in how to achieve 100% accuracy with the targeting aug, accuracy mods and laser sight. It's all very synergistic design and I haven't needed to touch it barely at all. Fine work. It actually has purpose as well: to encourage/enforce alternate gameplay and outside the box thinking, and outside of that it just makes combat very tactical without pissing off the player like it does in bloodlines.

Deus Ex is the only game that got stat-based accuracy truly right in a real-time FP game. Bloodlines, Alpha Protocol and Morrowind are complete failures in that regard.

Exactly. I have got nothing against convenient stuff to give multiple solutions, but make it fit to the level! In all the DX games I played, 90% of these seemed to be vents...

Forget everything except the first Deus Ex. The sequels are mediocre or complete garbage, and rarely follow or understand the ingenuity of the original and its Immersive Sim brethren.

I still know that the Bloodlines maps leave a lot to be desired. Like inside and outside of buildings are different or there are no doors around to enter unused buildings at all! I tried to fix the worst of those that I noticed, but the only way to really improve this would be to decompile, edit and recompile all maps. This is technically almost possible, but then again we have difficultied to reproduce the special lighting that the Troika compilers created so we would loose the atmosphere, which would be worse in my opinion...

That's really unfortunate.

I played a (OK I guess) Bloodlines mod that added some things to the levels, like a new scripted event where a hooker was getting mugged in one of the games many bland alleyways. Nice attempt to address the problem but the animation was poor, and that's about all I remember about the mod.

An ideal Bloodlines sequel would adapt a gameplay-centric level design philosophy while also attempting to retain that special atmosphere and realism, imo.

 

[Athelas]

You mean that place you can enter via an extremely convenient hole in the fence, and which also has that extremely convenient junction box located right outside...

Exactly. I have got nothing against convenient stuff to give multiple solutions, but make it fit to the level! In all the DX games I played, 90% of these seemed to be vents...

The beach house also has a vent where Mercurio's money is stashed.

In fact, I'm pretty sure Bloodlines has a higher amount of vents than Deus Ex (when taking into account the amount and size of levels, of course). It has areas that revolve entirely around the use of vents (the parking garage where you do the mission for Fat Lary, the Skyline Apartment Buildings, etc.).

 

[Ash]

...such as the enemies that bark the same lines over and over in combat...

Yeah, the enemy random lines are a problem. The game falls back to some generic ones as soon as there are no unique lines and as we can't add unique lines that would fit the professional voice-overs of Bloodlines we sadly can't fix this! Sometimes characters will even suddenly change the color of their voice because of that, although I think I fixed the female enemies talking with male voices at least..

I know adding new VA is not really feasible.

What I did for Deus Ex was just reduce the frequency that barks were spat, which was called in AI state code. Can you not do that? And in Deus Ex it was far less of a problem than Bloodlines! You have two or more NPC saying the same lines overlapping ften, it's hilarious.

 

[Wesp5]

Not even close. Ultima Underworld (1992)? Fallout?

I came to Bloodlines and Deus Ex from the shooter side of games, Doom being my first big PC passion, and I never played those two games.

The level design is some of the finest work in the 3D real-time space, primarily from a gameplay standpoint. Art direction on the other hand...

This is what I am talking about! The gameplay connection was so obvious, it never looked like the living world to me which it wanted to be.

The original game's execution in that regard was stellar.

Not as I remember my playthrough, which of course was a long time ago. Wasn't there a generator building so obvious designed for this?

As they damn well should be. Loosely based in realism, but still ultimately serving gameplay. Unlike Bloodlines.

There we disagree. I want to play in a living world where I have to find realistic alternative routes, not have them presented on a tablet.

It actually has purpose as well: to encourage/enforce alternate gameplay and outside the box thinking, and outside of that it just makes combat very tactical without pissing off the player like it does in bloodlines.

I never touched the crosshairs or accuracy in Bloodlines much because they worked fine from me coming from the FPS side of things. But I really hated that in DX you suddenly could do a headshot if a stat was right, whereas before you couldn't even if 100% on target in close quarters! That's as bad as pure stat firearms systems like in KOTOR and KOTOR2 where players would fire at enemies feet at 1 m.

An ideal Bloodlines sequel would adapt a gameplay-centric level design philosophy while also attempting to retain that special atmosphere and realism, imo.

I don't think this would be easily possible, because the real world is not build to give optimal gameplay !

 

[KILLER BEAR]

(...) but then again we have difficulties to reproduce the special lighting that the Troika compilers created so we would loose a lot of the special atmosphere, which would be worse in my opinion...

What do you mean exactly? Can you tell us a bit more about the lighting technique that was used in Bloodlines?

 

[Wesp5]

What I did for Deus Ex was just reduce the frequency that barks were spat, which was called in AI state code. Can you not do that?

That would be possible. I could either do it in the maps or just silence some of their lines. But I never heard that the frequency was a problem, only the different voices. Where is this most obvious? So I can check it out...

 

[Ash]

This is what I am talking about! The gameplay connection was so obvious, it never looked like the living world to me which it wanted to be.

It's enough to suspend disbelief effectively enough. For the most part.

There we disagree. I want to play in a living world where I have to find realistic alternative routes, not have them presented on a tablet.

Presented on a tablet? The original DX did have reasonably realistic paths anyhow. Occasionally there would be an illogical one but whatever, gameplay is king.

An ideal Bloodlines sequel would adapt a gameplay-centric level design philosophy while also attempting to retain that special atmosphere and realism, imo.

I don't think this would be easily possible, because the real world is not build to give optimal gameplay !

It's not entirely. You have to compromise one or the other at times, and that should almost always be realism, when it comes down to it, and if the gameplay you're compromising for isn't too illogical

 

[Ash]

What I did for Deus Ex was just reduce the frequency that barks were spat, which was called in AI state code. Can you not do that?

That would be possible. I could either do it in the maps or just silence some of their lines. But I never heard that the frequency was a problem, only the different voices. Where is this most obvious? So I can check it out...

Most obvious in the first Hub's cafe when all the thugs storm the place, but it's a problem throughout the game.

 

[Wesp5]

What do you mean exactly? Can you tell us a bit more about the lighting technique that was used in Bloodlines?

Bloodlines uses an alpha Source engine and thus some cool Russian fans converted an alpha Hammer editor from the leaked Half-Life 2 alpha to work with Bloodlines maps so we can now edit them and compile them in the typical Source way, like with VVIS and VRAD. Sadly when we use those HL2 compilers, the lighting is not as pronounced as in the original game, which is most obvious in outside maps. Troika must have had their own variations of these compilers to generate the typical Bloodlines feeling compared to the brighter HL2 look.

 

[Wesp5]

Most obvious in the first Hub's cafe when all the thugs storm the place, but it's a problem throughout the game.

I'll check this out! As the final 9.6 UP will probably be out today, it might end up in 9.7, but who knows...

 

[HansDampf]

The amount of freedom there is unchallenged, and you will find exactly one single vent in the entire map (letting you circumvent a laser trap).

i wasn't talking about freedom, but level design being the result of it. I remember liberty island as a large dark open area with a few rectangular buildings. On the other hand the beach house looked like a building that could actually exist !

Deus Ex is a bit older than Bloodlines and used a modified Unreal Engine. Rectangular buildings are probably a result of technical limitations. But it's more intersting from a gameplay perspective, which is what is argued here.

the final 9.6 UP will probably be out today

 

[Ash]

"Rectangular buildings are probably a result of technical limitations"

They mostly are. You can only have maps so complex (especially on Y2K hardware), so if you want big maps they need to be architecturally simple. I've tried to address the problem in v9.0 but don't expect too much. The other aspect is the DX devs simply didn't focus on art direction much, instead prioritizing other elements. I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Wesp5]

You can only have maps so complex (especially on Y2K hardware), so if you want big maps they need to be architecturally simple..

I played the original Half-Life just before Deus Ex and it already had a much more realistic and complex level design, maybe this was why I was so disappointed with DX! On the other hand HL used a different engine and was a linear shooter, so possibly there were some technical limitations...

I've tried to address the problem in v9.0 but don't expect too much.

So are you actually the guy behind the GMDX mod? Because it looks that 9.0 intends to fix exactly what I dislike so much about the DX level design, that it looks so bland, empty, sterile and not lived in. In that case I should wait for it to come out before I do a replay !

P.S.: I checked your suggestion, but I don't think I will be able to do something about it. It seems each enemy utters one line on detecting the player, regardless of other parameters! So in the diner all thugs will call out at once, but then fall silent afterwards. I could delay their targetting, but then they'll call out one after another which might be even more weird...

 

[Black]

MODDER FIGHT

 

[Vibalist]

Of course Bloodlines is better in my opinion , but what really makes me wonder is that several people praised Deus Ex for better level design! I know that DX basically started the multiple solution to quest approach which is indeed praiseworthy, but the level design wasn't that great in my opinion. Besides everything being basically too dark and bland, just compare the two versions of Chinatown in the two games, the multiple solution approach was done so unimaginative that the DX franchise is still suffering from it! There is always a vent when you need one. You can always come in via the roof or the basement. Most buildings look like they were actually designed to make multiple approaches possible, not like real world buildings would be. Compare that e.g. to the beachhouse map in Bloodlines...

Okay dude, you're a good modder and all, but this is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on the Codex.

 

[Ash]

You can only have maps so complex (especially on Y2K hardware), so if you want big maps they need to be architecturally simple..

I played the original Half-Life just before Deus Ex and it already had a much more realistic and complex level design, maybe this was why I was so disappointed with DX! On the other hand HL used a different engine and was a linear shooter, so possibly there were some technical limitations...

Realistic, sure.
Complex? Architecturally complex or complex in events, gameplay, inter-connectivity etc? If anything except the former, then no way.

So are you actually the guy behind the GMDX mod?

One and only. Aside from some minor contributions over the years it's been mostly me alone, as you have with the patch. There's few that can be trusted with DX anyway

P.S.: I checked your suggestion, but I don't think I will be able to do something about it. It seems each enemy utters one line on detecting the player, regardless of other parameters! So in the diner all thugs will call out at once, but then fall more silent afterwards...

Have you checked their other barks? Because they never shut up. Most noticeable if shooter build. As melee they don't get a chance between the beatdowns.

Can you actually modify the AI code directly? I've always wanted to do a Bloodlines mod (based on your patch) but no unrestricted level design alterations or source code access rules that out.