Did Bethesda screw up with level scaling or is it necessary?

[Makabb]

What if Skyrim was not level scaled and some of dungeons would be low level some mid level and some high level. You don't need to visit all of low level dungeons to get to the higher ones as you cannot expect a player to run through all dungeons as the game would turn into mmorpg. It would mean the remaining low level dungeons are now worthless. Enemis inside are nothing but a nuisance and loot is garbage.
Skyrim is mostly filler anyway, 90% of dungeons if not more are optional.Just because the game scales up it doesn't mean it should scale down, it creates a risk of player exploiting the game and getting super fat loot early on.
In Fallouts the game scales along the path of the main quest.

 

[Perkel]

Did ?

 

[DollarSign]

The only reasonable way is to divide the game into regions which make their level content obvious just from the context. For example, coastal areas are heavily urbanized and their dungeons/explorations are meant for starting players, mountains are populated by semi-hostile giants and intended for mid-level, and the burning marches of doom in the far south are clearly meant for high-level. That's sort of how it was in Morrowind where the closer you were to the center of the map the harder enemies got, and there was a glowing barrier preventing you from easily venturing into the endgame territory, but with Skyrim they kind of turned everything into a streamlined theme park, making it pretty boring to explore IMO.

So no, level scaling is never necessary, only good level and territory design.

 

[thesheeep]

but with Skyrim they kind of turned everything into a streamlined theme park, making it pretty boring to explore IMO.

Without mods like Requiem that disable the scaling, yes, it becomes very boring very soon.

I like the idea of scaled randomized areas that have mnimum and maximum level content. That way, a too weak character remains too weak, a too strong character still can roflstomp through it, but a character in the right level range has a fitting difficulty without being faced with the same enemies at the same places on each game.

 

[DraQ]

What if Skyrim was not level scaled and some of dungeons would be low level some mid level and some high level. You don't need to visit all of low level dungeons to get to the higher ones as you cannot expect a player to run through all dungeons as the game would turn into mmorpg. It would mean the remaining low level dungeons are now worthless. Enemis inside are nothing but a nuisance and loot is garbage.
Skyrim is mostly filler anyway, 90% of dungeons if not more are optional.Just because the game scales up it doesn't mean it should scale down, it creates a risk of player exploiting the game and getting super fat loot early on.
In Fallouts the game scales along the path of the main quest.

Have you played Requiem?

There are only two marginally legitimate uses for LS - a threat that has reason to be scaled to your level (for example if someone wants you dead at lvl1, they will probably handle a bottle of booze to local degenerate and tell them they can have second one if they beat you to death, at lvl20 it will probably involve paying off an elite hit team of some sort), and scaling major villains up to prevent them from ever becoming pushovers, but that usually indicates problems elsewhere (for example leveling system).

 

[Sykar]

LS is useless and outright insulting to my intelligence. Even worse how they turned it into a complete abomination in Oblivion.

 

[V_K]

IMO the best solution to open-world design is not level-scaling but limited character growth. It should be about gaining flexibility in how you approach the encounters, not hp and dps bloat. The same applies to enemies - different types should require different tactics to kill, not just have higher numbers.

 

[Sykar]

IMO the best solution to open-world design is not level-scaling but limited character growth. It should be about gaining flexibility in how you approach the encounters, not hp and dps bloat. The same applies to enemies - different types should require different tactics to kill, not just have higher numbers.

That is a good point. It's really irksome that so much really just boils down to HP vs DPS in many cRPGs. Boring as hell.

 

[mastroego]

I use a de-leveler mod and play just fine so it's not "necessary".
Actually the philosophy of an open world game fits the lack of LS better.

But of course, casual players.
It's a pretty straightforward issue, really.

 

[DraQ]

IMO the best solution to open-world design is not level-scaling but limited character growth. It should be about gaining flexibility in how you approach the encounters, not hp and dps bloat. The same applies to enemies - different types should require different tactics to kill, not just have higher numbers.

There is no point to *ever* have HP and DPS bloat in any game, open or not.
It's awful design through and through.

 

[Sykar]

There is no point to *ever* have HP and DPS bloat in any game, open or not.
It's awful design through and through.

Agreed. It's also why I stopped playing MMOs. I can somewhat accept it in Hack&Slash games but they really are just made for that purpose. DPS and HP bloat is so damn stupid in cRPGs.

 

[Old Hans]

That is a good point. It's really irksome that so much really just boils down to HP vs DPS in many cRPGs. Boring as hell.

yea I really feel like a character should never be able to trade blows with something like a dragon or a giant *ever* It helps the combat engine is good and supports player skill, instead of "nah its good I'm wearing all purple gear with +1000 health enchantments"

 

[Darkzone]

My opinion about LS:
Never have i seen it done good in practice, therefore there is a lack of prove that it can be good. But that does not mean that it is utter nonsense. If it is very limited, it can provide some challenge to the player at least in the theory.
In Oblivion it was a tragedy, in Fallout 3 it was shit, in Skyrim it has diminished the game as a hiking simulator.

 

[DraQ]

DPS and HP bloat is so damn stupid in cRPGs.

This. And if you can't envision or implement a character growth system that doesn't involve bloat, you'll be better off ditching character growth altogether - just make a build and roll with it, it will still be an RPG as it will still have build limiting what you can and cannot do.

yea I really feel like a character should never be able to trade blows with something like a dragon or a giant *ever* It helps the combat engine is good and supports player skill, instead of "nah its good I'm wearing all purple gear with +1000 health enchantments"

Also this.

Being able to best all the challenges through repeated application of grind is bad and renders all the challenges void.
Being able to withstand something that, by all logic, should turn your character into an unrecognizable smear on the landscape is bad.
Inevitable loot and threat inflation highly vertical development leads to is bad.
Highly vertical development in itself is uninteresting.

 

[DraQ]

My opinion about LS:
Never have i seen it done good in practice, therefore there is a lack of prove that it can be good. But that does not mean that it is utter nonsense. If it is very limited, it can provide some challenge to the player at least in the theory.
In Oblivion it was a tragedy, in Fallout 3 it was shit, in Skyrim it has diminished the game as a hiking simulator.

The first and foremost question is: "WHY have LS in the first place?".

 

[Snorkack]

The first and foremost question is: "WHY have LS in the first place?".

My opinion will probably be very unpopular, but Level Scaling at least tries to tackle an issue I have with many games. I don't like how your toon gets godlike in no time rendering much of the lower level content effectively a boring roflstomp. IRL even the most accomplished combattant equipped with top-tier gear probably gets torn a second one if three or four street thugs get to engage him in close combat.
I agree that Level Scaling is far from an optimal solution because it generates many more inconsistencies. But so is leaving earlygame encounters a steamroll as soon as you have advanced a bit.

 

[Xeon]

Yea, If the the enemies in some areas will just stay the same no matter how much powerful I get then I really would rather they just don't re-spawn and be a nuisance. I am not sure if this is a good system but in some jRPGs, some old areas get the same enemies but a higher class, sometimes might not be too different health wise but they will have different abilities or something like that IIRC.

I kinda don't like about characters not progressing at all and staying at the same state as you created them, I enjoy learning new skills and abilities so if I just keep using the same stuff for the entire game, I feel it might kill the fun or something for me.

 

[DraQ]

I don't like how your toon gets godlike

Excess fluff removed exposing the actual problem.

You don't fix shit design by piling more shit design on top of it. That's lunacy.
You fix shit design by finding actual shit design and removing it or replacing it with good design.

If the actual problem is that high level character can roflstomp arbitrary number of low level ones, then fix the actual problem, throwing obviously bad "fixes" at the problem won't make it go away, it will at best merely move it around, at worst also spawn many additional problems.

 

[Infinitron]

IMO the best solution to open-world design is not level-scaling but limited character growth. It should be about gaining flexibility in how you approach the encounters, not hp and dps bloat. The same applies to enemies - different types should require different tactics to kill, not just have higher numbers.

Wise words.

People often ask the wrong questions when approaching issues like these. Before asking "What should happen when I level up?", you should first ask yourself "Should I even be leveling up?"

 

[Sykar]

The whole discussion reminded me why I liked P&P Shadowrun 2ed so much, because a fresh Shadowrunner actually has a realistic chance to kill even a veteran. Try that in P&P games like D&D, that first level mage is lucky to survive a fight with a common cat.

Enemies like Dragons are basically impossible for any human or meta human 1v1.

 

[Snorkack]

Excess fluff removed exposing the actual problem.

You don't fix shit design by piling more shit design on top of it. That's lunacy.
You fix shit design by finding actual shit design and removing it or replacing it with good design.

If the actual problem is that high level character can roflstomp arbitrary number of low level ones, then fix the actual problem, throwing obviously bad "fixes" at the problem won't make it go away, it will at best merely move it around, at worst also spawn many additional problems.

Good point. But still, if op asks
Did Bethesda screwed up with level scaling?
then my Answer would be "no, it was a necessity to redeem the horrible combat system/character progression". I'd find it worse if upscaling didn't take place and every dungeon I encountered by accident was filled with trash mobs who can't scratch me.
But yes, LS deals with the symptoms, not with the cause.
Downscaling is a completely different thing though. There need to be places where I get my ass handed when I stumble into them too soon.

 

[Jaesun]

Bethesda's target audience is the general console public, so no, they did not screw up. They will continue to use a system that those consumers are familiar with. There is no reason at all for them to do anything differently. It sells perfectly fine the way is it.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

People often ask the wrong questions when approaching issues like these. Before asking "What should happen when I level up?", you should first ask yourself "Should I even be leveling up?"

No the question to be asked is- How does the character get better/develop?
Levelling up by itself is not wrong.
Plus question is about what happens when the world levels up with you.

 

[DollarSign]

No the question to be asked is- How does the character get better/develop?

No, first we must ask, what is a question?

 

[JarlFrank]

It is not necessary at all. See: Gothic series.

Case closed.