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Did Bethesda screw up with level scaling or is it necessary?

Crevice tab

Savant
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Messages
224
The primary motivation behind level-scaling is not too lazy to hand-craft, but rather the desire to give players the option of going at their own pace.

Which is bullshit. It may well be true but it's still stupid bullshit. The same sort of funny in an ironic way bullshit that I've talked about in this very thread. Giving the players a skip to the credits option is dumb- if you're building an open world game, selling an open world game and marketing an open world game that's focused on exploration then fucking use that open world and encourage the players to explore it. Saying 'oh well questing is optional you can just skip it all and go to the final cutscene where you'll be forever described as awesome' is utterly retarded and defeats the very purpose of the game.

What's more that mentality is transferring to things that aren't related to leveling: see Skyrim's quest lines and all those boring optional skippable randomly generated quests which still consumed time and money to build because voice acting and stuff but were designed from the get go as skippable which is part of the reason why they're so boring.

The BG 2 developers back in the day had to worry about not allowing you to get to Spellhold at level 9 because you're just going to get pwned repeatedly with no way out. In the worst case - eg a plot critical event that doesn't allow backtracking - it breaks the game, forcing a hard reload from an old save. In less bad cases, but equally horrible in anal retentive developers' minds, the player goes to Spellhold at max level and goes lolwut and proceeds to ezmode through the rest of the game, feeling no challenge whatsoever.

How do you solve this issue without level-scaling? The answer is gating, ala 15,000 gold = lots of exp-giving quests to go to Spellhold, quest chains that force you to hit Chapter X before doing Z, etc. But gating takes away player freedom - there's no two ways about it, and feel especially hamfisted when implemented in open world environments eg doors you aren't able to open, roadblocks that you aren't able to walk around, dungeons with guards denying you entrance, etc.

So players have the freedom to do anything but fail? Games should always be on autowin no matter what you do mode? Or are players so retarded that when confronted with great big warnings that going into the Fortress of Doom to fight the Big Bad (TM) is going to be really hard and they should save the game beforehand? And even if they are couldn't the devs implement an autosave feature for important spots?

How do you solve this issue without level scaling? Proper world design that provides enough content without turning the game into a cakewalk, a difficulty slider for the small tweaks that may escape you and having the courage of not treating the players like big spoiled inbred toddlers who have to be constantly held by the hand and praised for going to the bathroom.

It should be very hard to almost impossible to do the upper ends of a quest line if you've only done the mandatory quests to get there. Instead there should be plenty of get the fuck out and train points just like it happened in Morrowind. Is something too hard? Well open world- do easier stuff. Is something too easy? Well you might be able to do the really epic stuff now. Is the epic stuff too easy? Make it fucking harder- there's no reason why fighting 5 goblins should be harder than fighting a bloody dragon. Things aren't quite perfect? Well that's what the difficulty slider is for. Have the NPCs actually say relevant stuff warning the player of dangerous zones instead of taking arrows to the knee and accept that the player will once in a while get confused, make a mistake and then get killed especially if it's the first time he plays the game. That's what save games are for.
 

Luzur

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Yea, a lot of the posts, kinda would like Bethesda to have a Dark Soul approach to combat I think. I haven't played Dark Souls but I did watch a lot of videos and I don't know, it just doesn't suit it IMO for random encounters but man, it would have been awesome for boss battles, the Dragon boss in Dark Soul felt more majestic or something than the Dragons in Skyrim.

I don't know if they can do that kinda fights in an open world environment since bosses in Dark Soul fight in like an arena or something but you kinda shouldn't throw down boss types enemies the way Skyrim did with Dragons, they made it a collectable mini game to unlock abilities.

Last boss in Skyrim was pretty sad, it had his own place and some unique attacks but had zero challenge, that's fucked up if for the entire game you hear how terrifying Dragons or last boss are.

Haven't played Skyrim in 2 years so might be misremembering but I think Giants can one shot you. They are kinda much stronger than Dragons.

Yeah fighting Alduin gave off abit of a ...derp feeling, as you mentioned giants are way more dangerous to fight since they can do that over head swing that slamdunk you first into the ground then sent you flying some 200 meters up in the air.
 

V_K

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Not really. Haven't played Risen, but in Gothics armor upgrades heavily influence you survivability, like gaining 3-4 DnD levels at once. And the fact that access to them (and spells) was strictly tied to plot points made it even worse. Gothics have their strong points but character system definitely isn't one of them.

In their defense armor does actually dramatically increase survivability IRL though perhaps not quite to such a large extent. Games, movies and books usually give the blatantly false impression that armor is just shiny clothing/only good against arrows. Someone without armor is going to be vulnerable to each cut and glancing blow. Someone wearing armor just has to worry about defending his vulnerable spots and not allowing his enemy to get really good hits in.
newmodelarmy1.jpg
 

Lord Romulus

Arcane
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
765
One of the worst game mechanics since underwater combat. Eliminates any sense of danger or exploration when you pretty much know how strong every enemy you're going to encounter is and how good the loot is. Skyrim and Oblivion did it the worse, there was no motivation to get stronger or work towards anything because you can basically do anything and go anywhere after the tutorial. The world just feels so artificial and hollow when every aspect of it is scaled to your character, and the whole world revolves around your character.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
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another thing Bethesda has fix is those forced questplots, like when you are doing that vampire DLC quest you are kinda forced into joining the Mages Guild just to get into their fort and talk to some guy, also the Dragons plot, it was kinda frustrating when the scenario went something like this:

Jarl of Whiterun: Ah, a traveler, what brings you to my court?
Me: heil my jarl! i bring a messange from General Tullius about your city's anus is gonna get plowed by Stormcloak army any second
JoW: Oh i see, i better re-
sudden messanger: My jarl, shit! fuck! a xboxhueg dragon is taking a dump over the guards in the west, it got a dong as big as the watchtower!!! FUCK!
Me: dont give shit about that, my jarl, as long as i dont start the quest line they wont spa-
JoW: *throws Tullius message away* All hands on deck men! a dragon has attacked and stuff, time to go, and you imperial messenger better get your ass out there and beat that dragon along with 3 other guys, you are only hope!! and i wont listen to anything else then your victory bukakke in the face of that dragon!
me: b-but..but the message from the fucking head honcho of the legion!! I DONT WANT THIS QUEST YET!! FUCKING LISTEN TO MEE NO NO NO NONOOOO!!!
JoW: cry me a river later boy, its Dragon plot time!!

And hooboy dragons all over as usual.
 

potatojohn

Arcane
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
2,646
From what I remember Skyrim's level scaling wasn't as offensive as Oblivion's

In fact the world was mostly static wasn't it? Only dungeons and dragons (ha ha) scaled (to some degree).
 

rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
650
I definately didn't see stuff like Oblivion's highwaymen in full glass gear worth thousands asking for 50 gold in Skyrim.
They had already gotten better at this by the time Fallout 3 was released.
_____
rezaf
 

Luzur

Good Sir
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I definately didn't see stuff like Oblivion's highwaymen in full glass gear worth thousands asking for 50 gold in Skyrim.
They had already gotten better at this by the time Fallout 3 was released.
_____
rezaf

Well yeah bandits stay in leather or fur stuff in Skyrim, although they might get steel weaponry or Dwarven arrows as you level up.

on the other hand Draugr all become Darkwing Death High Lords of Doom after a certain level.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
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another thing Bethesda has fix is those forced questplots, like when you are doing that vampire DLC quest you are kinda forced into joining the Mages Guild just to get into their fort and talk to some guy, also the Dragons plot, it was kinda frustrating when the scenario went something like this:

Jarl of Whiterun: Ah, a traveler, what brings you to my court?
Me: heil my jarl! i bring a messange from General Tullius about your city's anus is gonna get plowed by Stormcloak army any second
JoW: Oh i see, i better re-
sudden messanger: My jarl, shit! fuck! a xboxhueg dragon is taking a dump over the guards in the west, it got a dong as big as the watchtower!!! FUCK!
Me: dont give shit about that, my jarl, as long as i dont start the quest line they wont spa-
JoW: *throws Tullius message away* All hands on deck men! a dragon has attacked and stuff, time to go, and you imperial messenger better get your ass out there and beat that dragon along with 3 other guys, you are only hope!! and i wont listen to anything else then your victory bukakke in the face of that dragon!
me: b-but..but the message from the fucking head honcho of the legion!! I DONT WANT THIS QUEST YET!! FUCKING LISTEN TO MEE NO NO NO NONOOOO!!!
JoW: cry me a river later boy, its Dragon plot time!!

And hooboy dragons all over as usual.

What you've just written shows how the rpg video game industry reflects the taste of the consumers : teens with an obsession for dragons and nordic shit who want an easy game system. They are the target demographic nowadays, developers will never make a game addressed to the harcore/oldschool generation. It can only get worse and worse.

I tried to avoid that Dragon plot for as long as i could, but you are forced to go to the same guy (the jarl) who starts it in Whiterun to further the Civil war plot, if you dont BOTH plots are stuck where they are, and you cant avoid the dragon plot (well if you quickly break off the conversation with the jarl, turn around and console delete the messanger that spawns behind you it can be done, but i shudder at the thought of all the script bugs that would create) either since it on autostart when you a near that guy.

Although it isnt as bad as in Oblivion, i remember some freak actually hunting you down in that game to give you a quest.
 

Crevice tab

Savant
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Messages
224
Well yeah bandits stay in leather or fur stuff in Skyrim, although they might get steel weaponry or Dwarven arrows as you level up.

on the other hand Draugr all become Darkwing Death High Lords of Doom after a certain level.

Meh... incline's still incline no matter how tiny it is. Bethesda at least does really beautiful landscapes- if they'd improve the questing and dialogues, fixed more of the bugs and stopped raping the character leveling system I'd almost call them good.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
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Wong example, Luzur ! The world is not centered on you, so of course when a fucking dragon fornicate on their battlement, of course they are going to deal with dragon dong before they deal with further issue. Dragon dong on battlement has some sort of immediacy to it.
I dont say Skyrim is good or not, just that your example sucks!

another thing Bethesda has fix is those forced questplots, like when you are doing that vampire DLC quest you are kinda forced into joining the Mages Guild just to get into their fort and talk to some guy, also the Dragons plot, it was kinda frustrating when the scenario went something like this:

Jarl of Whiterun: Ah, a traveler, what brings you to my court?
Me: heil my jarl! i bring a messange from General Tullius about your city's anus is gonna get plowed by Stormcloak army any second
JoW: Oh i see, i better re-
sudden messanger: My jarl, shit! fuck! a xboxhueg dragon is taking a dump over the guards in the west, it got a dong as big as the watchtower!!! FUCK!
Me: dont give shit about that, my jarl, as long as i dont start the quest line they wont spa-
JoW: *throws Tullius message away* All hands on deck men! a dragon has attacked and stuff, time to go, and you imperial messenger better get your ass out there and beat that dragon along with 3 other guys, you are only hope!! and i wont listen to anything else then your victory bukakke in the face of that dragon!
me: b-but..but the message from the fucking head honcho of the legion!! I DONT WANT THIS QUEST YET!! FUCKING LISTEN TO MEE NO NO NO NONOOOO!!!
JoW: cry me a river later boy, its Dragon plot time!!

And hooboy dragons all over as usual.
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
23,731
From what I remember Skyrim's level scaling wasn't as offensive as Oblivion's

In fact the world was mostly static wasn't it? Only dungeons and dragons (ha ha) scaled (to some degree).

No, it was nearly as bad.

Bandit may not wear Daedric armor, but they scale in such a way that they may as well.
 

uaciaut

Augur
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
505
Level scaling in small ammounts is fine if devs know what they're doing (see wizardry 8), problem is most just get too obsessed with removing restrictions and trying to shove down players' throats this unnerving sense of "freedom to go anywhere/open world" and level scaling is the laziest solution they could come up with.

Iirc New Vegas had SOME level scaling as well but because the world is build intelligently and you have clear restrictions on which areas you can tackle from the start and which you can't it's barely noticeable which is, again imo, a good implementation of level scaling.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
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Aug 28, 2013
Messages
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Wong example, Luzur ! The world is not centered on you, so of course when a fucking dragon fornicate on their battlement, of course they are going to deal with dragon dong before they deal with further issue. Dragon dong on battlement has some sort of immediacy to it.
I dont say Skyrim is good or not, just that your example sucks!
No it doesnt, they are sending a messenger with some chick and like 3 guys to bring down the biggest threat to those lands that they have ever faced.
His example ilustrates the sheer retardation of the main plot and the huge disconnect the game has with the player.
 

Keldryn

Arcane
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Vancouver, Canada
Level-scaling became all the rage in the game development community due to repeated complaints about players out-leveling/under-leveling content. A lot of developers became distraught over balancing player freedom with prescribed paths and content skipping, and level-scaling looked, on the surface, to be a panacea that made the problem go away.

While the implementation differs, the philosophy is pretty much the same as that which informed the design of Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition. Adventure design is based on "level appropriate encounters," target numbers for skill checks scale with level, magic items are given levels so that the DM knows when they should be given to PCs, the type of treasure scales with PC level, from gold pieces to platinum pieces to astral diamonds. The numbers get bigger and characters get more abilities over time, but there is a similar feeling of being on a treadmill.

Tabletop RPGs have always had some form of "level scaling" in terms of the DM taking the PCs' levels and abilities into account when designing adventures, but it was never baked into the system like it was in 4th. When PCs reached 8th level and orcs were no longer a challenge, the game essentially just swapped their stat blocks for another one in order to keep them relevant, often by defining them as a "minion" creature, with higher defences and dealing greater damage then their lower-level versions but who will die when struck a single time for any amount of damage.

As I said, the implementation is quite different, but the intent and effect is more or less the same. The edition of D&D most preoccupied with balance was also the most preoccupied with maintaining a consistent level of challenge throughout a campaign.

I'm sure the idea sounded good in early design meetings.

How do you solve this issue without level-scaling? The answer is gating, ala 15,000 gold = lots of exp-giving quests to go to Spellhold, quest chains that force you to hit Chapter X before doing Z, etc. But gating takes away player freedom - there's no two ways about it, and feel especially hamfisted when implemented in open world environments eg doors you aren't able to open, roadblocks that you aren't able to walk around, dungeons with guards denying you entrance, etc.

One alternative to such artificial gating would be a softer approach: the area in question is not inaccessible earlier in the game, but the villain you need to kill or the object you are seeking don't appear until certain conditions have been met. Mileage on this will vary depending on the context, of course.

For example, if one of your main story quests in an open world game is to infiltrate Mount Plot Device and kill Foozle the Lesser, instead of blocking the player from entering Mount Plot Device until later in the game, it would be possible (but difficult) for the player to defeat all of the guards and get inside. However, Foozle the Lesser is out doing Evil Things, instead of sitting in his lair waiting for the PC to come and kill him. He won't be present inside that area until specific actions have been taken in the game. When he does appear, the game could check to see if the player had already visited the mountain and killed any guards; if so, then Foozle the Lesser has set some traps, added more guards at the entrance, etc. Of course this is more work, but it would be way cooler.

It always bothers me when your PC has slaughtered hundreds of powerful monsters, yet two town guards are an impenetrable barrier to entering a town. Or that being spotted by a single wimpy town guard has you thrown in prison with no chance of getting away.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
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Messages
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Best thing you can do is ignore this banalce shit and it will go away, just like in the old days. God knows there are more important things to take care off to make your game actually fun.
 

Akratus

Self-loathing fascist drunken misogynist asshole
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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I tried to avoid that Dragon plot for as long as i could, but you are forced to go to the same guy (the jarl) who starts it in Whiterun to further the Civil war plot, if you dont BOTH plots are stuck where they are, and you cant avoid the dragon plot (well if you quickly break off the conversation with the jarl, turn around and console delete the messanger that spawns behind you it can be done, but i shudder at the thought of all the script bugs that would create) either since it on autostart when you a near that guy.

Although it isnt as bad as in Oblivion, i remember some freak actually hunting you down in that game to give you a quest.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/33051/?
 

Luzur

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I tried to avoid that Dragon plot for as long as i could, but you are forced to go to the same guy (the jarl) who starts it in Whiterun to further the Civil war plot, if you dont BOTH plots are stuck where they are, and you cant avoid the dragon plot (well if you quickly break off the conversation with the jarl, turn around and console delete the messanger that spawns behind you it can be done, but i shudder at the thought of all the script bugs that would create) either since it on autostart when you a near that guy.

Although it isnt as bad as in Oblivion, i remember some freak actually hunting you down in that game to give you a quest.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/33051/?

Sounds nice, but also sounds like a game breaker of buggy script ultimate carnage.
 

laclongquan

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Wong example, Luzur ! The world is not centered on you, so of course when a fucking dragon fornicate on their battlement, of course they are going to deal with dragon dong before they deal with further issue. Dragon dong on battlement has some sort of immediacy to it.
I dont say Skyrim is good or not, just that your example sucks!
No it doesnt, they are sending a messenger with some chick and like 3 guys to bring down the biggest threat to those lands that they have ever faced.
His example ilustrates the sheer retardation of the main plot and the huge disconnect the game has with the player.
Get there the firstest with the mostest, know what I am saying~

What use is an army or a hero band a week away? 3-4 good guys with their hands right there is the most useful.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
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Messages
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Wong example, Luzur ! The world is not centered on you, so of course when a fucking dragon fornicate on their battlement, of course they are going to deal with dragon dong before they deal with further issue. Dragon dong on battlement has some sort of immediacy to it.
I dont say Skyrim is good or not, just that your example sucks!
No it doesnt, they are sending a messenger with some chick and like 3 guys to bring down the biggest threat to those lands that they have ever faced.
His example ilustrates the sheer retardation of the main plot and the huge disconnect the game has with the player.
Get there the firstest with the mostest, know what I am saying~

What use is an army or a hero band a week away? 3-4 good guys with their hands right there is the most useful.
4 dudes against a dragon? 2 guards, some veteran chick and a random dude? :prosper:
In what way could they be useful? its literally like pitting a single bandit against an army and expecting him to do something useful.

What i did last time was telling them i was ready, then making a run for it. pretty sure all those retards got killed by the dragon, bloody idiots.
 

laclongquan

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And if the game arrange for you to tell them start evacuating, you would complain that your party alone is enough to decimate that dragon~

Sheesh! Some people would complain if you hang them with golden ropes~
 

Lhynn

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And if the game arrange for you to tell them start evacuating, you would complain that your party alone is enough to decimate that dragon~

Sheesh! Some people would complain if you hang them with golden ropes~
It would be a roleplaying opportunity, stop being so fucking retarded.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
And if the game arrange for you to tell them start evacuating, you would complain that your party alone is enough to decimate that dragon~

Sheesh! Some people would complain if you hang them with golden ropes~
That's because they're being hanged, Einstein.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
For example, if one of your main story quests in an open world game is to infiltrate Mount Plot Device and kill Foozle the Lesser, instead of blocking the player from entering Mount Plot Device until later in the game, it would be possible (but difficult) for the player to defeat all of the guards and get inside. However, Foozle the Lesser is out doing Evil Things, instead of sitting in his lair waiting for the PC to come and kill him. He won't be present inside that area until specific actions have been taken in the game. When he does appear, the game could check to see if the player had already visited the mountain and killed any guards; if so, then Foozle the Lesser has set some traps, added more guards at the entrance, etc.
Even better: if you do this, the game could then reward your perseverance in doing a tougher area earlier by making it possible for you to set up a trap for Foozle. Once whatever other actions have been taken that get Foozle Jr back to his lair (these need not be different in both "paths"), instead of Foozle going there and us having to fight through to get to him, he instead springs the trap, which could result in any number of variations in the more traditional outcome (easier boss fight, better loot because he hasn't had time to put away something that could help the party, or even a narrative variation opens up that could affect the way some of the plot unfolds.

There's just so many different ways to do this interestingly and without level scaling.
 

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