Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Eternity Discussion: Attribute Impactfulness in PoE vs AD&D

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I like it that Josh tried to give meaning to every attribute but I don't like how this induces players to go for gaming the system... of which the effect isn't all that notable anyway.
If the effect of PoE attributes isn't notable, then the effect of IE attributes also isn't notable, since PoE's are more impactful, both per point and in total.

Indeed, the attributes felt extremely impactful to me. Only system I can think of where stats had notably bigger impact was S.P.E.C.I.A.L. from Fallout 1&2.
YMMV I suppose.

Well, possibly also other systems which gate feats/talents/abilities/perks behind stat requirements... as long as they are not too easy to qualify for and are impactful themselves. Definitely not IE games though.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
If the effect of PoE attributes isn't notable, then the effect of IE attributes also isn't notable, since PoE's are more impactful, both per point and in total.
I'm interested in how did you reach this conclusion.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
If the effect of PoE attributes isn't notable, then the effect of IE attributes also isn't notable, since PoE's are more impactful, both per point and in total.
I'm interested in how did you reach this conclusion.

Some numbers 1 2

Basically only one that comes close is STR vs MIG for melee weapons (with PoE still having the edge except DW), but the total DPS in PoE is multiplicative from the benefits (or penalties) from all attributes, so it wins handily.

Attributes in IE are just an afterthought really, especially in Bg2 where thanks an abundance of enchanted gear there is little practical difference between low and high roll characters.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
If the effect of PoE attributes isn't notable, then the effect of IE attributes also isn't notable, since PoE's are more impactful, both per point and in total.
I'm interested in how did you reach this conclusion.

Some numbers 1 2

Basically only one that comes close is STR vs MIG for melee weapons (with PoE still having the edge except DW), but the total DPS in PoE is multiplicative from the benefits (or penalties) from all attributes, so it wins handily.

Attributes in IE are just an afterthought really, especially in Bg2 where thanks an abundance of enchanted gear there is little practical difference between low and high roll characters.
Ok, I'm convinced, with the caveat that they can't really be directly compared, except Strength vs Might, and even then, you have Strength not directly causing weapon damage to scale in AD&D as Might does in PoE, and Strength affecting accuracy as well as damage in AD&D as opposed to PoE... so even there, the comparison is pretty difficult.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
If the effect of PoE attributes isn't notable, then the effect of IE attributes also isn't notable, since PoE's are more impactful, both per point and in total.
I'm interested in how did you reach this conclusion.

Some numbers 1 2

Basically only one that comes close is STR vs MIG for melee weapons (with PoE still having the edge except DW), but the total DPS in PoE is multiplicative from the benefits (or penalties) from all attributes, so it wins handily.

Attributes in IE are just an afterthought really, especially in Bg2 where thanks an abundance of enchanted gear there is little practical difference between low and high roll characters.
Ok, I'm convinced, with the caveat that they can't really be directly compared, except Strength vs Might, and even then, you have Strength not directly causing weapon damage to scale in AD&D as Might does in PoE, and Strength affecting accuracy as well as damage in AD&D as opposed to PoE... so even there, the comparison is pretty difficult.
After I did some calculations, it's inconclusive which has more impact - Strength or Might.
Strength's bonus to damage is flat in AD&D, so the weaker the weapon you are fighting with (Dagger - 1d4), the bigger the damage bonus would seem (+6 for 19 STR for example).
Might's bonus to damage scales with the weapon's base damage, so it's in your interest to use the highest-base damage weapon available (accounting for the enemy's DR for various damage types).

If comparing Strength's bonus to the chance to hit, against PoE's Dexterity bonus to Accuracy, Strength's bonus is clearly the more important, and one point in Strength is much more valuable than one point in PoE's Dexterity. I think it's pretty clear why, but I'll explain it anyway.

Throughout your whole game you will be rolling a d20 for to-hit chance, so a bonus of +1 (which you have at STR 16/STR 17) is a bonus of 5%, and at 18/00 for warrior classes, this bonus is already 15%. Its significance remains constant, even though as you progress in levels and in equipment, your THAC0 will keep going down by itself. The roll you are making is still a number in this range 1-20.

Whereas in PoE you get your base Accuracy at level 1 (30 for a fighter) and get a +3 accuracy per level including 1st level. You can get a +1 accuracy per point invested in Dexterity, but this 1 point you bought will diminish in value as you gain +3 accuracy per level. At level 10 your fighter's 30 Accuracy has doubled to 60, and one bonus point from Dexterity represents 1/60th of your total. The numbers inflation means that the stronger enemies you are fighting the bigger values of Accuracy vs Defense X will be compared, in which your Accuracy bonus from Dextirity will mean less and less.
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
If the effect of PoE attributes isn't notable, then the effect of IE attributes also isn't notable, since PoE's are more impactful, both per point and in total.
I'm interested in how did you reach this conclusion.

Some numbers 1 2

Basically only one that comes close is STR vs MIG for melee weapons (with PoE still having the edge except DW), but the total DPS in PoE is multiplicative from the benefits (or penalties) from all attributes, so it wins handily.

Attributes in IE are just an afterthought really, especially in Bg2 where thanks an abundance of enchanted gear there is little practical difference between low and high roll characters.
Ok, I'm convinced, with the caveat that they can't really be directly compared, except Strength vs Might, and even then, you have Strength not directly causing weapon damage to scale in AD&D as Might does in PoE, and Strength affecting accuracy as well as damage in AD&D as opposed to PoE... so even there, the comparison is pretty difficult.
After I did some calculations, it's inconclusive which has more impact - Strength or Might.
Strength's bonus to damage is flat in AD&D, so the weaker the weapon you are fighting with (Dagger - 1d4), the bigger the damage bonus would seem (+6 for 19 STR for example).
Might's bonus to damage scales with the weapon's base damage, so it's in your interest to use the highest-base damage weapon available (accounting for the enemy's DR for various damage types).

If comparing Strength's bonus to the chance to hit, against PoE's Dexterity bonus to Accuracy, Strength's bonus is clearly the more important, and one point in Strength is much more valuable than one point in PoE's Dexterity. I think it's pretty clear why, but I'll explain it anyway.

Throughout your whole game you will be rolling a d20 for to-hit chance, so a bonus of +1 (which you have at STR 16/STR 17) is a bonus of 5%, and at 18/00 for warrior classes, this bonus is already 15%. Its significance remains constant, even though as you progress in levels and in equipment, your THAC0 will keep going down by itself. The roll you are making is still a number in this range 1-20.

Whereas in PoE you get your base Accuracy at level 1 (30 for a fighter) and get a +3 accuracy per level including 1st level. You can get a +1 accuracy per point invested in Dexterity, but this 1 point you bought will diminish in value as you gain +3 accuracy per level. At level 10 your fighter's 30 Accuracy has doubled to 60, and one bonus point from Dexterity represents 1/60th of your total. The numbers inflation means that the stronger enemies you are fighting the bigger values of Accuracy vs Defense X will be compared, in which your Accuracy bonus from Dextirity will mean less and less.

Two points.
First, its Perception that bestows an Accuracy bonus.
Secondly, on PotD I've never experienced a situation where I could say: ok, I have hit a soft-cap and don't really need more accuracy. That's because in AD&D that's binary: you hit or you miss. Or fumble or crit... but always on the same values. Overall past certain point, you rarely miss in BG2. Meanwhile in PoE if you exceed enemy Defense by 20, you score a crit. So you really want to maximize that Accuracy. And yes, even at level 16, 10 points of Accuracy (8->18 Perception) do make a difference. What's more, there are many weapons with VERY potent on-crit effects. So stacking Accuracy (as well as enemy debuffs) really does pay off. Even moreso that it's not uncommon for your character to become debuffed.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
Strength's bonus to damage is flat in AD&D, so the weaker the weapon you are fighting with (Dagger - 1d4), the bigger the damage bonus would seem (+6 for 19 STR for example).
Might's bonus to damage scales with the weapon's base damage, so it's in your interest to use the highest-base damage weapon available (accounting for the enemy's DR for various damage types).

For damage per hit yes, but DPS (or damage per round) is the output that's important - MIG is agnostic there (30% on 2x10 or 1x20 is 26). The relative value of MIG is actually higher on low-base damage weapons since DR is fixed, not % based in PoE.



If comparing Strength's bonus to the chance to hit, against PoE's Dexterity bonus to Accuracy, Strength's bonus is clearly the more important, and one point in Strength is much more valuable than one point in PoE's Dexterity. I think it's pretty clear why, but I'll explain it anyway.

PER governs ACC in PoE, DEX is attack speed (multiplicative bonus to DPS). So in PoE melee dps attributes are MIG+PER+DEX+INT (harder to quantify but very relevant), IE has only STR as relevant. STR is basically PER+MIG combined and dialed up to 11, which is also why ranged weapons increasingly suck a you level up.

Per point comparison is largely pointless (but fun) since the allocation and systems are different, but people dismiss PoE's attributes without realizing that IE ones are worse. The relevant part for the player isn't the math, but the choice how to allocate them at CC - IE offers none, at even a purposely gimped char is easily offset through gear (since they set to fixed value, SoD actually mixes this up).



Throughout your whole game you will be rolling a d20 for to-hit chance, so a bonus of +1 (which you have at STR 16/STR 17) is a bonus of 5%, and at 18/00 for warrior classes, this bonus is already 15%. Its significance remains constant, even though as you progress in levels and in equipment, your THAC0 will keep going down by itself. The roll you are making is still a number in this range 1-20.
Whereas in PoE you get your base Accuracy at level 1 (30 for a fighter) and get a +3 accuracy per level including 1st level. You can get a +1 accuracy per point invested in Dexterity, but this 1 point you bought will diminish in value as you gain +3 accuracy per level. At level 10 your fighter's 30 Accuracy has doubled to 60, and one bonus point from Dexterity represents 1/60th of your total. The numbers inflation means that the stronger enemies you are fighting the bigger values of Accuracy vs Defense X will be compared, in which your Accuracy bonus from Dextirity will mean less and less.

The relative decrease in value comparison is kinda pointless, you can also do that for Bg2. It's actually worse there, since enemy AC doesn't scale per level (like in PoE), you can easily get 100% CtH (SoA enemy AC is mostly >0, max AC is -15ish, ThAC0 easily goes below that)
PoE's ACC also has benefits (or penalties) for increasing ACC-DEF value (graze-crit), Bg2 doesn't.

PoE's base system isn't the culprit behind its blandness, it's richer than IE.
 
Last edited:

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Two points.
First, its Perception that bestows an Accuracy bonus.
Secondly, on PotD I've never experienced a situation where I could say: ok, I have hit a soft-cap and don't really need more accuracy. That's because in AD&D that's binary: you hit or you miss. Or fumble or crit... but always on the same values. Overall past certain point, you rarely miss in BG2. Meanwhile in PoE if you exceed enemy Defense by 20, you score a crit. So you really want to maximize that Accuracy. And yes, even at level 16, 10 points of Accuracy (8->18 Perception) do make a difference. What's more, there are many weapons with VERY potent on-crit effects. So stacking Accuracy (as well as enemy debuffs) really does pay off. Even moreso that it's not uncommon for your character to become debuffed.

For damage per hit yes, but DPS (or damage per round) is the output that's important - MIG is agnostic there (30% on 2x10 or 1x20 is 26). The relative value of MIG is actually higher on low-base damage weapons since DR is fixed, not % based in PoE.





PER governs ACC in PoE, DEX is attack speed (multiplicative bonus to DPS). So in PoE melee dps attributes are MIG+PER+DEX+INT (harder to quantify but very relevant), IE has only STR as relevant. STR is basically PER+MIG combined and dialed up to 11, which is also why ranged weapons increasingly suck a you level up.

Per point comparison is largely pointless (but fun) since the allocation and systems are different, but people dismiss PoE's attributes without realizing that IE ones are worse. The relevant part for the player isn't the math, but the choice how to allocate them at CC - IE offers none, at even a purposely gimped char is easily offset through gear (since they set to fixed value, SoD actually mixes this up).





The relative decrease in value comparison is kinda pointless, you can also do that for Bg2. It's actually worse there, since enemy AC doesn't scale per level (like in PoE), you can easily get 100% CtH (SoA enemy AC is mostly >0, max AC is -15ish, ThAC0 easily goes below that)
PoE's ACC also has benefits (or penalties) for increasing ACC-DEF value (graze-crit), Bg2 doesn't.

PoE's base system isn't the culprit behind its blandness, it's richer than IE.
- My bad about referencing Dexterity instead of Perception.
- "Past certain point you rarely miss in BG2"/ "(SoA enemy AC is mostly >0, max AC is -15ish, ThAC0 easily goes below that)" - keep in mind that of the three IE games using Ad&D 2 (not counting PST for obvious reasons), BG2 is the one that pumps up your stats very generously, and early, if you do sidequests in a more beneficial order. But this not a fault in the system, but in game designers going over the top with rewards. PoE could be set up with similarly powerful items early on which make it useless to invest in some attributes, but it's not.
- "in PoE if you exceed enemy Defense by 20, you score a crit. " Actually, the wiki says you score a crit if d100 + (Your Acc - Enemy Defense) results in a number above 100, hence the bigger the difference in your favor, the bigger the range of d100 throws which will result in a crit when added to that difference. I know, it's radically different from Ad&D. That was why I said two times it's difficult to say anything conclusive by comparing directly. When determining the importance of each within its own ruleset though, a point in Thac0 seems to me a lot more important than a point in Accuracy
- "but DPS (or damage per round) is the output that's important" - There is no round in PoE as you know, and also, something on which I agree with Josh is that the concept of DPS in not applicable to PoE. First, because you don't have a guaranteed hit, like in a strategy game, and second, because there are too many factors which modify each particular hit attempt's resulting damage.
- "IE offers none, at even a purposely gimped char is easily offset through gear (since they set to fixed value, SoD actually mixes this up)." - While some items set attributes to a fixed value (mostly in BG2 ofcourse), many increase by 1,2,3 points if you look to IWD for examples. This is why when talking about relevance of points I am comparing systems, and not games!
- "PER governs ACC in PoE, DEX is attack speed (multiplicative bonus to DPS). So in PoE melee dps attributes are MIG+PER+DEX+INT (harder to quantify but very relevant)" And in AD&D2 advancing warrior classes past thresholds in character level increases your Attacks per round by a rate of 30-50%. Quite more notable than the 3% action speed Dexterity gives you.
- "The relative value of MIG is actually higher on low-base damage weapons since DR is fixed, not % based in PoE."
:hmmm:
Ok, maths time, apparently... A club does 9-13 damage. Suppose you have a Might of 11. 3% of 13 is 0.39 damage gained from your Might bonus. A mace does 11-16 damage. 3% of 16 is 0.48. 0.48 > 0.39, so no, the relative value of Might is not higher on low-base damage weapons. BTW, I think the values in this example demonstrate the inanity of PoE's system a lot better than any comparisons to AD&D2 could.

What I missed to point out yesterday is that similar to how Strength is more important in its boost to THAC0 than Perception in its boost to Accuracy, Dexterity in AD&D2 is more important in its boost to AC than Resolve in its boost to Deflection.

Overall, yeah, AD&D2, as implemented in BG/IWD/BGII has fewer base attributes that are important in combat, but they are more important relative to PoE's attributes' importance in combat is.
 
Last edited:

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
- "Past certain point you rarely miss in BG2"/ "(SoA enemy AC is mostly >0, max AC is -15ish, ThAC0 easily goes below that)" - keep in mind that of the three IE games using Ad&D 2 (not counting PST for obvious reasons), BG2 is the one that pumps up your stats very generously, and early, if you do sidequests in a more beneficial order. But this not a fault in the system, but in game designers going over the top with rewards. PoE could be set up with similarly powerful items early on which make it useless to invest in some attributes, but it's not.

We are talking about actual games here, not theoretical cases though. Out of them, BG2 is the most recognized by far (beside PST, which, as you wisely suggested, should not be a part of this discussion).

- "in PoE if you exceed enemy Defense by 20, you score a crit. " Actually, the wiki says you score a crit if d100 + (Your Acc - Enemy Defense) results in a number above 100, hence the bigger the difference in your favor, the bigger the range of d100 throws which will result in a crit when added to that difference. I know, it's radically different from Ad&D. That was why I said two times it's difficult to say anything conclusive by comparing directly. When determining the importance of each within its own ruleset though, a point in Thac0 seems to me a lot more important than a point in Accuracy

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, it is difficult to compare. The last statement is purely your opinion though. I've found it very usefull to push Perception for Accuracy on my character in PoE. And I was very happy I actually had the possibility to influence it (different from the frankly retarded 18/00).

- "PER governs ACC in PoE, DEX is attack speed (multiplicative bonus to DPS). So in PoE melee dps attributes are MIG+PER+DEX+INT (harder to quantify but very relevant)" And in AD&D2 advancing warrior classes past thresholds in character level increases your Attacks per round by a rate of 30-50%. Quite more notable than the 3% action speed Dexterity gives you.

Apples and oranges again. In BG physical classes increase their damage potential by gaining levels, increasing chance to hit and extra APR (+equipment), in PoE trough gaining levels, increasing chance to hit and crit and Abilities which expand their combat options, magnitude and/or area of effect (+equipment). Where the equipment makes a lot more difference in PoE IMO (Recovery time reductions, many on hit/crit effects).

Also... why do you bring 3% here? In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Dex you need 15. Then its already 15%?

- "The relative value of MIG is actually higher on low-base damage weapons since DR is fixed, not % based in PoE."
:hmmm:
Ok, maths time, apparently... A club does 9-13 damage. Suppose you have a Might of 11. 3% of 13 is 0.39 damage gained from your Might bonus. A mace does 11-16 damage. 3% of 16 is 0.48. 0.48 > 0.39, so no, the relative value of Might is not higher on low-base damage weapons. BTW, I think the values in this example demonstrate the inanity of PoE's system a lot better than any comparisons to AD&D2 could.

You seem to have missed entirely the fact that a club has Fast Recovery, while a Mace has Average Recovery.

Also, again, why do you bring 3%? In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Str you need 17. Then its already 21%?

What I missed to point out yesterday is that similar to how Strength is more important in its boost to THAC0 than Perception in its boost to Accuracy, Dexterity in AD&D2 is more important in its boost to AC than Resolve in its boost to Deflection.

Again, it's a bit apples and oranges. At 18 points, per point 4 less AC is probably worth more then 8 Deflection. But at 15, -1 AC isn't really better then +5 Deflection. But PoE's systems are more complex, layered. Armors in PoE provide DR, not defesive adjustment. Resolve also affects Concentration. Early on try fighting a group of enemies with 3 Resolve. Good luck! Admittedly later on High Meditation buff can help greatly (but Opportunity cost!) and you're also more difficult to hit.
Also it's the most prevalent "RP" stat. You want to compare value of Resolve with Charisma?

Overall, yeah, AD&D2, as implemented in BG/IWD/BGII has fewer base attributes that are important in combat, but they are more important relative to PoE's attributes' importance in combat is.

Well, obviously, if you only have 1 stat that makes a difference, pushing it will be a priority. A no-brainer even. Doesn't mean it's IMPACT will favorably compare to the combined impact of PoE's attributes. That's something I don't like about AD&D. I like character building to have choices - tough ones. Big opportunity costs.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
We are talking about actual games here, not theoretical cases though. Out of them, BG2 is the most recognized by far (beside PST, which, as you wisely suggested, should not be a part of this discussion).
No, I am talking about the systems as implemented in the games, not discussing how the games utilize the implementation of the system. There is an important difference between the two things. If one game that uses one system is more popular than another, this doesn't make the system worse or better, or more or less exploitable. If we were talking about AD&D2 irrespective of the IE games that use it, as a purely PnP system, the whole argument becomes irrelevant, because the DM can decide to emphasize Attributes in a variety of ways in which the games do not.

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, it is difficult to compare.
Pushing perception for accuracy gives you 1 point of Accuracy per point spent, which will remain a static bonus, and will diminish in importance as you level up. This is no longer an opinion, but a statement of fact. 18/00 will give a warrior class character a bonus of +3 to THAC0 which will be a 15% bonus, forever. Not a diminishing in importance number, like Accuracy is. That +3 will always be 15% of the 20 you are rolling for attack. Though yes, the warrior character's THAC0 will drop further and further as he levels up.

The last statement is purely your opinion though. I've found it very usefull to push Perception for Accuracy on my character in PoE. And I was very happy I actually had the possibility to influence it (different from the frankly retarded 18/00).
Yes, it's my opinion, as indicated by the "seems to me" bit.


Apples and oranges again. In BG physical classes increase their damage potential by gaining levels, increasing chance to hit and extra APR (+equipment), in PoE trough gaining levels, increasing chance to hit and crit and Abilities which expand their combat options, magnitude and/or area of effect (+equipment).
So...? They increase their "damage potential" - you have to explain what this variable means btw - in the same way then: :lol:

[*] Warrior classes in AD&D2: "gain levels, i.e. reduce THAC0", "add APRs", "improve equipment", "receive new abilities" (why omit that for AD&D2 warrior classes?). Direct improvements to damage do not come as you increase levels though!
[*] All classes in PoE: "gain levels, i.e. increase Accuracy", "improve equipment", "receive new abilities" - That's all.


Where the equipment makes a lot more difference in PoE IMO (Recovery time reductions, many on hit/crit effects).
- Statement of opinion, I won't argue. I should note though, that people seem to bring up BGII when convenient as a game which boosts characters too much through items, then say that "equipment makes a lot more difference in PoE", or a variation of that statement, again when convenient... :M.


Also... why do you bring 3% here? In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Dex you need 15. Then its already 15%?
What did you not understand in what I said? Maybe you confused which system's Dexterity I was referring to. I said:
in AD&D2 advancing warrior classes past thresholds in character level increases your Attacks per round by a rate of 30-50%. Quite more notable than the 3% action speed Dexterity gives you.

As your warrior-class character increases in level, his APR increase by 30-50%:
Warrior Class level | Attacks
1-6 ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍1 per round
7-12 ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ 3 attacks / 2 rounds (odd rounds 1 attack, even rounds 2 attacks)
13 and above ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍ ‍‍‍‍‍‍ ‍‍2 per round

This is what I am saying is more significant than PoE's Dexterity bonus of 3% per point. This is roughly like your attack speed increasing by 50% once your PoE Fighter,Barbarian,Paladin,Ranger gets to level 7, and then your attack speed increasing twofold (i.e. 100%) at level 13. Quite more noticeable jump than 3% per point can give you, especially when taking into account that this 3% per point bonus is with you from the start. In PoE you never get that "Hey, I just improved bigleague" feeling.

#Just "Infinity Engine feels". because we were going for "Infinity Engine feels" with this game, right? At least the lead designer said so. During the... Kickstarter...? Oh... :(

You seem to have missed entirely the fact that a club has Fast Recovery, while a Mace has Average Recovery.
I would have taken it into account if anyone knew what these weapon recovery speeds meant. The equivalent in AD&D2 is speed factor, which is documented and we can see how it works.

Also, again, why do you bring 3%? In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Str you need 17. Then its already 21%?
I thought it's obvious that I'm replying to the (false) statement "The relative value of MIG is actually higher on low-base damage weapons since DR is fixed, not % based in PoE". What does Strength have to do here, I'm not comparing Might vs Strength, I'm comparing the damage bonus from Might between two weapons, in order to prove that the statement is false.

Also, it is not true that "In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Str you need 17". In AD&D2, in order to not get maluses to THAC0 or Damage, you have to be at 8. You get other things, but they are not much relevant in the IE games, so I'll ignore them. So yes, you are getting something by being at 8-9. And at 10-11, 12-13... True, the first thing noticeable in combat comes at... 16 (+1 to damage), but still not 17 as you claim.

Again, it's a bit apples and oranges. At 18 points, per point 4 less AC is probably worth more then 8 Deflection. But at 15, -1 AC isn't really better then +5 Deflection.
Yes - the value invested Dexterity points in AD&D2, relative to the value of invested Resolve points in PoE is increasingly larger. But I think you are missing that in AD&D2 you start at 8 as a neutral value, and add from there, and in the IE games you usually spend more points than you do in PoE, due to rerolls. That's an opportunity given to the player to choose how difficult or easy he wants to make the game for himself. So yes, direct comparisons of the value of points isn't very reliable. But the comparison of the gains provided by one point is.

But PoE's systems are more complex, layered. Armors in PoE provide DR, not defesive adjustment. Resolve also affects Concentration.
Yes, it's just that this doesn't seem to make the game more engaging or combat more nail-biting. Whether it's due solely to the system, is disputable, as Parabalus said.

Early on try fighting a group of enemies with 3 Resolve. Good luck! Admittedly later on High Meditation buff can help greatly (but Opportunity cost!) and you're also more difficult to hit.
I already commented on how bonus Deflection from Resolve becomes increasingly less important. It follows that it's more important in the beginning of the game. I have not disputed that, so nothing to argue with here.

Also it's the most prevalent "RP" stat. You want to compare value of Resolve with Charisma?
Again, I'm not commenting on how stats are utilized for reactivity, only for combat.


Well, obviously, if you only have 1 stat that makes a difference, pushing it will be a priority. A no-brainer even. Doesn't mean it's IMPACT will favorably compare to the combined impact of PoE's attributes. That's something I don't like about AD&D. I like character building to have choices - tough ones. Big opportunity costs.
I like impactful attribute scores and also attribute scores which are indeed more important for certain characters than for others, and not superficially. You can't have your cake "impactful attribute scores", and eat it "every build is viable", that's just misguided or marketing talk. I don't want to go to the extreme of having dump stats.

But that's not the point. My goal and the reason for the whole argument was that Parabalus said that ability scores in PoE are more impactful per point as well as as a whole than ability scores in AD&D2. I am certain this is not true all of the time, and I'm convinced this is not true in some instances, for which I gave examples.
 
Last edited:

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
- "Past certain point you rarely miss in BG2"/ "(SoA enemy AC is mostly >0, max AC is -15ish, ThAC0 easily goes below that)" - keep in mind that of the three IE games using Ad&D 2 (not counting PST for obvious reasons), BG2 is the one that pumps up your stats very generously, and early, if you do sidequests in a more beneficial order. But this not a fault in the system, but in game designers going over the top with rewards. PoE could be set up with similarly powerful items early on which make it useless to invest in some attributes, but it's not.

It's not about their power, but how they function - IE items and spells mostly SET to a certain value, while PoE's are all + buffs. The first invalidates how you spend your points at character creation, the second is strengthened by it.
- "in PoE if you exceed enemy Defense by 20, you score a crit. " Actually, the wiki says you score a crit if d100 + (Your Acc - Enemy Defense) results in a number above 100, hence the bigger the difference in your favor, the bigger the range of d100 throws which will result in a crit when added to that difference. I know, it's radically different from Ad&D. That was why I said two times it's difficult to say anything conclusive by comparing directly. When determining the importance of each within its own ruleset though, a point in Thac0 seems to me a lot more important than a point in Accuracy
The PoE system is just multiplied by 5, with losses cut at out the ends.

- "but DPS (or damage per round) is the output that's important" - There is no round in PoE as you know, and also, something on which I agree with Josh is that the concept of DPS in not applicable to PoE. First, because you don't have a guaranteed hit, like in a strategy game, and second, because there are too many factors which modify each particular hit attempt's resulting damage.

That's like saying you can not talk about a 1d10 2h sword doing 5.5 per hit. You can not just talk about damage per hit, because in PoE weapons have different swing times (intrinsic APR difference).
- "PER governs ACC in PoE, DEX is attack speed (multiplicative bonus to DPS). So in PoE melee dps attributes are MIG+PER+DEX+INT (harder to quantify but very relevant)" And in AD&D2 advancing warrior classes past thresholds in character level increases your Attacks per round by a rate of 30-50%. Quite more notable than the 3% action speed Dexterity gives you.

The entire point of this discussion is to clarify that PoE's attributes do matter, direct damage comparisons between systems are pointless, we are looking at the improvement of each's relative to itself due to attributes.
PoE doesn't have anything close to IH 10APR 25 STR meat hackmaster either

- "The relative value of MIG is actually higher on low-base damage weapons since DR is fixed, not % based in PoE."
:hmmm:
Ok, maths time, apparently... A club does 9-13 damage. Suppose you have a Might of 11. 3% of 13 is 0.39 damage gained from your Might bonus. A mace does 11-16 damage. 3% of 16 is 0.48. 0.48 > 0.39, so no, the relative value of Might is not higher on low-base damage weapons. BTW, I think the values in this example demonstrate the inanity of PoE's system a lot better than any comparisons to AD&D2 could. .

You missed the mark here by a bit. Like Haplo said, weapons have different recovery speeds. The damage contribution of might remains the same regardless if you swing your 11 dmg club 10 times, or your mace 8 times - the damage per time (total damage) increase is the same, without DR there is no difference, total damage increase is 30% in both cases..

The relative importance of might is higher on low-base damage weapons because enemy DR is fixed, so with e.g. a 30% MIG boost against a target with DR 1:

A dagger which does 10 strikes for 10 damage, that's 10x9=90 with DR, and 10+(10+3-1)=120 with MIG. Increase in damage is 33%.

Something big which does 2 strikes for 50, that's 98 with DR, and 2x(50+15-1)=128 with MIG. Increase in damage is 30.6%.

This is why the new PEN system makes sense (on paper), because fixed DR always screws small strikes in total damage.


What I missed to point out yesterday is that similar to how Strength is more important in its boost to THAC0 than Perception in its boost to Accuracy, Dexterity in AD&D2 is more important in its boost to AC than Resolve in its boost to Deflection.

Dexterity gives -6/(25-10)= -0.4 AC per point. 1 point of AC is 5% shift in CtH table, dex gives -2% enemy CtH per point. Res gives -1% per point.



Overall, yeah, AD&D2, as implemented in BG/IWD/BGII has fewer base attributes that are important in combat, but they are more important relative to PoE's attributes' importance in combat is.

PoE attributes' intent is to force a trade-off on character creation, it succeeds in this. In IE you simply allocate according to the class you chose and dump stat the rest.

Keep in mind this discussion is concerning two of IE's most packed attributes for their specific role, and it's close!
I don't think it's fruitful (or possible really) to analyze this extremely in depth, but people often dismiss PoE's attributes offhand.
 
Last edited:

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Apples and oranges again. In BG physical classes increase their damage potential by gaining levels, increasing chance to hit and extra APR (+equipment), in PoE trough gaining levels, increasing chance to hit and crit and Abilities which expand their combat options, magnitude and/or area of effect (+equipment).
So...? They increase their "damage potential" - you have to explain what this variable means btw - in the same way then: :lol:
[*] Warrior classes in AD&D2: (...) "receive new abilities" (why omit that for AD&D2 warrior classes?).
Oh come on. You can't seriously compare/mean that. Warrior classes get proficiency bonuses and APR. That's where I should stop, really. Paladins and Rangers also get some weaksouce spells, that change nothing. Oh and Lay on hands and maybe a few other skills. Oh monks get a few cool (but rather weak overall) tricks. These do not compare to PoE martial class abilities, which are often gamechangers and are a fine compensation for lack of additional attacks.

Also... why do you bring 3% here? In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Dex you need 15. Then its already 15%?
What did you not understand in what I said? Maybe you confused which system's Dexterity I was referring to. I said:
in AD&D2 advancing warrior classes past thresholds in character level increases your Attacks per round by a rate of 30-50%. Quite more notable than the 3% action speed Dexterity gives you.

As your warrior-class character increases in level, his APR increase by 30-50%:
Warrior Class level | Attacks
1-6 1 per round
7-12 3 attacks / 2 rounds (odd rounds 1 attack, even rounds 2 attacks)
13 and above 2 per round

This is what I am saying is more significant than PoE's Dexterity bonus of 3% per point. This is roughly like your attack speed increasing by 50% once your PoE Fighter,Barbarian,Paladin,Ranger gets to level 7, and then your attack speed increasing twofold (i.e. 100%) at level 13. Quite more noticeable jump than 3% per point can give you, especially when taking into account that this 3% per point bonus is with you from the start.

As I explained above, in PoE the active abilities compensate for lack of extra attacks. And they do a good job at that IMO.
And again, why you insist on bringing 3% into the discussion. You're given more then 1 Ability point at character generation. Speak about 30%. Better yet, you get to allocate up to 60 points, so talk about 180% overall (spread between stats).

In PoE you never get that
"Hey, I just improved bigleague" feeling.

#Just "Infinity Engine feels". because we were going for "Infinity Engine feels" with this game, right? At least the lead designer said so. During the... Kickstarter...? Oh... :(

Well, at least for me it happens in PoE when I get a really cool ability (say, Heart of Fury or Pull of Eora, Minor Avatar or Mindweb) and possibly when you get/level a really badass weapon (say, something like Stormcaller or St. Ydwen's Redeemer).

Also, again, why do you bring 3%? In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Str you need 17. Then its already 21%?

Also, it is not true that "In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Str you need 17". In AD&D2, in order to not get maluses to THAC0 or Damage, you have to be at 8. You get other things, but they are not much relevant in the IE games, so I'll ignore them. So yes, you are getting something by being at 8-9. And at 10-11, 12-13... True, the first thing noticeable in combat comes at... 16 (+1 to damage), but still not 17 as you claim.

I stand corrected. With the same point investment, gain is 18% (with up to 33% possible before items).

Well, obviously, if you only have 1 stat that makes a difference, pushing it will be a priority. A no-brainer even. Doesn't mean it's IMPACT will favorably compare to the combined impact of PoE's attributes. That's something I don't like about AD&D. I like character building to have choices - tough ones. Big opportunity costs.
I like impactful attribute scores and also attribute scores which are indeed more important for certain characters than for others, and not superficially. You can't have your cake "impactful attribute scores", and eat it "every build is viable", that's just misguided or marketing talk. I don't want to go to the extreme of having dump stats.

Well, thing is, it's just that: marketing talk or internet memes. In practice not all builds are viable. At least on PotD. The power gap between generic, dumb or RP builds and optimized power builds is quite huge in PoE. I should know, in many games I tend to like building characters more then actually playing them.

But that's not the point. My goal and the reason for the whole argument was that Parabalus said that ability scores in PoE are more impactful per point as well as as a whole than ability scores in AD&D2. I am certain this is not true all of the time, (...)

I can agree with that.

...and I'm convinced this is not true in some instances, for which I gave examples.

...but not with everything.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
- "Past certain point you rarely miss in BG2"/ "(SoA enemy AC is mostly >0, max AC is -15ish, ThAC0 easily goes below that)" - keep in mind that of the three IE games using Ad&D 2 (not counting PST for obvious reasons), BG2 is the one that pumps up your stats very generously, and early, if you do sidequests in a more beneficial order. But this not a fault in the system, but in game designers going over the top with rewards. PoE could be set up with similarly powerful items early on which make it useless to invest in some attributes, but it's not.

It's not about their power, but how they function - IE items and spells mostly SET to a certain value, while PoE's are all + buffs. The first invalidates how you spend your points at character creation, the second is strengthened by it.
Whether they mostly do one or the other, is easy to research to and check. If in the three discussed IE games items mostly set, as opposed to raise/lower, attributes and thus promote players treating stats as dump stats, then this is really a problem with these games' design, not with the AD&D2 system.

- "in PoE if you exceed enemy Defense by 20, you score a crit. " Actually, the wiki says you score a crit if d100 + (Your Acc - Enemy Defense) results in a number above 100, hence the bigger the difference in your favor, the bigger the range of d100 throws which will result in a crit when added to that difference. I know, it's radically different from Ad&D. That was why I said two times it's difficult to say anything conclusive by comparing directly. When determining the importance of each within its own ruleset though, a point in Thac0 seems to me a lot more important than a point in Accuracy
The PoE system is just multiplied by 5, with losses cut at out the ends.
No, this is untrue. The attack roll is calculated different, armor effects are different, etc., etc. Or I didn't catch your meaning?

- "but DPS (or damage per round) is the output that's important" - There is no round in PoE as you know, and also, something on which I agree with Josh is that the concept of DPS in not applicable to PoE. First, because you don't have a guaranteed hit, like in a strategy game, and second, because there are too many factors which modify each particular hit attempt's resulting damage.

That's like saying you can not talk about a 1d10 2h sword doing 5.5 per hit. You can not just talk about damage per hit, because in PoE weapons have different swing times (intrinsic APR difference).
Yes, I certainly would say that you can not talk about "average damage per hit", like in your 2H Sword example. I don't think the concept of DPS applies well to a system where hit succes or failiure, and if successful - then its damage, are calculated every time. This isn't a MOBA or an RTS, too many modifiers both to to-hit chance and to damage are in effect every time the hazard is taken - i.e. at every to-hit roll. MOBAs and RTSs don't have to-hit rolls.

- "PER governs ACC in PoE, DEX is attack speed (multiplicative bonus to DPS). So in PoE melee dps attributes are MIG+PER+DEX+INT (harder to quantify but very relevant)" And in AD&D2 advancing warrior classes past thresholds in character level increases your Attacks per round by a rate of 30-50%. Quite more notable than the 3% action speed Dexterity gives you.

The entire point of this discussion is to clarify that PoE's attributes do matter, direct damage comparisons between systems are pointless, we are looking at the improvement of each's relative to itself due to attributes.
PoE doesn't have anything close to IH 10APR 25 STR meat hackmaster either
I don't understand how your reply is connected to what I'm saying. I am not comparing damage between the two systems. My comparison demonstratesthat APRs/Attack speed are gained at different "steps" in the two systems, with AD&D2's advancement being more steep and happening at two steps - the first step raises your "attack speed" in AD&D2 by 50%, the next raises it by 100% of the initial 1 APR. This is all I am saying in the quoted passage. I would add my opinion that I prefer steep raises at fewer steps (as in AD&D2) to smaller raises at more numerous steps (as in PoE).

- "The relative value of MIG is actually higher on low-base damage weapons since DR is fixed, not % based in PoE."
:hmmm:
Ok, maths time, apparently... A club does 9-13 damage. Suppose you have a Might of 11. 3% of 13 is 0.39 damage gained from your Might bonus. A mace does 11-16 damage. 3% of 16 is 0.48. 0.48 > 0.39, so no, the relative value of Might is not higher on low-base damage weapons. BTW, I think the values in this example demonstrate the inanity of PoE's system a lot better than any comparisons to AD&D2 could. .

You missed the mark here by a bit. Like Haplo said, weapons have different recovery speeds. The damage contribution of might remains the same regardless if you swing your 11 dmg club 10 times, or your mace 8 times - the damage per time (total damage) increase is the same, without DR there is no difference, total damage increase is 30% in both cases..

The relative importance of might is higher on low-base damage weapons because enemy DR is fixed, so with e.g. a 30% MIG boost against a target with DR 1:

A dagger which does 10 strikes for 10 damage, that's 10x9=90 with DR, and 10+(10+3-1)=120 with MIG. Increase in damage is 33%.

Something big which does 2 strikes for 50, that's 98 with DR, and 2x(50+15-1)=128 with MIG. Increase in damage is 30.6%.

This is why the new PEN system makes sense (on paper), because fixed DR always screws small strikes in total damage.
Dagger example:
1 hit for 10 damage + 30% = 1 hit for 13 damage. This 13 Damage - 1 Damage absorbed by DR = 12 damage. This 12 Damage x 10 hits = 120 Damage
1 hit for 10 damage + 0 = 1 hit for 10 damage. This 10 Damage - 1 Damage absorbed by DR = 9 damage. This 9 Damage x 10 hits = 90 Damage
Might bonus gave you 120-90 = 40 damage in 10 hits.

Something Big example, with a base 60 damage, for easier calculations:
1 hit for 60 damage + 30% = 1 hit for 80 damage. This 80 Damage - 1 Damage absorbed by DR = 79 Damage. This 79 Damage x 2 hits = 158 Damage
1 hit for 60 damage + 0 = 1 hit for 60 damage. This 60 Damage - 1 Damage absorbed by DR = 59 Damage. This 59 Damage x 2 hits = 118 Damage
Might bonus gave you 158-118 = 40 damage in two hits. If we compare for the same number of hits, the difference grows to 790-590 = 200 damage.

You say that the Dagger's 40 damage is a bigger percentage of the 120 damage, than the Big Thing's 40 damage is as a percentage of the 158 damage. Yet, you are neglecting that one is achieved with 10 hits while the other with just 2.

Conclusion: Other things being equal, the relative value of the Might bonus is higher on HIGH-damage weapons. Exactly for the reason which you present - "since DR is fixed, not % based". :)
Additionally, and this is something we've been neglecting in our examples, for the sake of simplicity - by striking fewer times, you are exposing yourself to the hazard of the d100 roll fewer times. Other things being equal, it's more probable to score 2 successive hits than 10 successive hits.


What I missed to point out yesterday is that similar to how Strength is more important in its boost to THAC0 than Perception in its boost to Accuracy, Dexterity in AD&D2 is more important in its boost to AC than Resolve in its boost to Deflection.

Dexterity gives -6/(25-10)= -0.4 AC per point. 1 point of AC is 5% shift in CtH table, dex gives -2% enemy CtH per point. Res gives -1% per point.
Where did you get each of these from: "-6", "(25-10)" Resolve giving -1% per point? 1% of what? This is not making any sense.

What I said, and am saying again - the relevance of AD&D2's AC bonus will remain constant throughout your character's development because you are always throwing a d20, whereas the relevance of your Deflection bonus will diminish with time, as your total Deflection grows and grows with +3 per level and is compared with enemies' increasing Accuracy values. This difference in the relevance of AC bonus vs Deflection bonus is inevitable because of how attack resolution is calculated in AD&D2 vs PoE. As a consequence of this fact, I conclude that a point invested in AD&D2's Dexterity is worth more than a point invested in PoE's Resolve. As already stated, point-for-point value is not comparable because in PoE you start with 6 attributes at 10 and 16 points (I think it was?) to spread, whereas in AD&D2 you may start with a total of 90 points if you roll high for Attributes.


Overall, yeah, AD&D2, as implemented in BG/IWD/BGII has fewer base attributes that are important in combat, but they are more important relative to PoE's attributes' importance in combat is.

PoE attributes' intent is to force a trade-off on character creation, it succeeds in this. In IE you simply allocate according to the class you chose and dump stat the rest.
You don't even need to allocate according to class in the three analyzed IE games (BG/BGII/IWD), as we saw, because Intelligence, Charisma, and Wisdom can be dumped with little consequence even for classes which depend on them. I don't argue about this. My argument, now refined, is that the steeper climbs of APRs and constant relevance of AC bonus / THAC0 bonus in AD&D2 make points invested in AD&D2's Strength and Dexterity more impactful for these mentioned purposes, than points invested in PoE's Might, Perception and Resolve. I also mention again that in AD&D2 there is another factor that cheapens attribute points, in addition to dump stats - the possibility to reroll Attribute scores.

Keep in mind this discussion is concerning two of IE's most packed attributes for their specific role, and it's close!
I don't think it's fruitful (or possible really) to analyze this extremely in depth, but people often dismiss PoE's attributes offhand.
I don't know what you mean that it's close, it's evident that the benefits are bigger for investing in Strength and Dexterity than in Might, Perception and Resolve. I think these benefits are comparable between the games. The price of attribute points however is not directly comparable, but in the general case an attribute point comes cheaper in AD&D2 than in PoE.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Haplo , please give me the shittiest build you can find and let's see how I will fare with it on PotD, with stock companions only or with custom companions allowed, as you choose.

I think it will turn out to be viable.
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
There is quite a difference between contributing and dominating though. Even a weak build will still be useful in its niche and the party will carry him.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
There is quite a difference between contributing and dominating though. Even a weak build will still be useful in its niche and the party will carry him.
Hehe, I expected you would say something in those lines.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
Haplo , please give me the shittiest build you can find and let's see how I will fare with it on PotD, with stock companions only or with custom companions allowed, as you choose.

I think it will turn out to be viable.

Sure, give me the same for an IE game and I'll take you up on it. I'm sure you realise how retarded this bait is, since both games can be done with 5 companions and your PC tucked away somewhere, to say the least.

Psure somebody soloed PoE with a naked ranger tho, IE games solos are a dime a dozen.
Whether they mostly do one or the other, is easy to research to and check. If in the three discussed IE games items mostly set, as opposed to raise/lower, attributes and thus promote players treating stats as dump stats, then this is really a problem with these games' design, not with the AD&D2 system.

Not sure whether its the system or the games as I never played P&P AD&D2.

No, this is untrue. The attack roll is calculated different, armor effects are different, etc., etc. Or I didn't catch your meaning?

It's calculated the same way. For PoE roll d100 and add it to (ACC-DEF), good stuff if >15. For IE roll d20 and add it to (AC - ThAC0) , hit if > 1.

- "but DPS (or damage per round) is the output that's important" - There is no round in PoE as you know, and also, something on which I agree with Josh is that the concept of DPS in not applicable to PoE. First, because you don't have a guaranteed hit, like in a strategy game, and second, because there are too many factors which modify each particular hit attempt's resulting damage.

That's like saying you can not talk about a 1d10 2h sword doing 5.5 per hit. You can not just talk about damage per hit, because in PoE weapons have different swing times (intrinsic APR difference).
Yes, I certainly would say that you can not talk about "average damage per hit", like in your 2H Sword example. I don't think the concept of DPS applies well to a system where hit succes or failiure, and if successful - then its damage, are calculated every time. This isn't a MOBA or an RTS, too many modifiers both to to-hit chance and to damage are in effect every time the hazard is taken - i.e. at every to-hit roll. MOBAs and RTSs don't have to-hit rolls.

If you don't think average damage per hit is a concept applicable to DnD I don't know what to say really. Average damage per hit is the first part of expected damage in a given timeframe (chance to hit x strikes in t x average damage), so expected DPS. Any kind of comparisons without these are fruitless.

I don't understand how your reply is connected to what I'm saying. I am not comparing damage between the two systems. My comparison demonstratesthat APRs/Attack speed are gained at different "steps" in the two systems, with AD&D2's advancement being more steep and happening at two steps - the first step raises your "attack speed" in AD&D2 by 50%, the next raises it by 100% of the initial 1 APR. This is all I am saying in the quoted passage. I would add my opinion that I prefer steep raises at fewer steps (as in AD&D2) to smaller raises at more numerous steps (as in PoE).

I'm as puzzled as you are, since the +APR you gain from levels is independent of attributes. If you want to multiply the value of STR by the APR (calculate DPS impact) you get, then you'd have to take into account talents and abilities for both PoE and IE. It's pointless.

- "The relative value of MIG is actually higher on low-base damage weapons since DR is fixed, not % based in PoE."
:hmmm:
Ok, maths time, apparently... A club does 9-13 damage. Suppose you have a Might of 11. 3% of 13 is 0.39 damage gained from your Might bonus. A mace does 11-16 damage. 3% of 16 is 0.48. 0.48 > 0.39, so no, the relative value of Might is not higher on low-base damage weapons. BTW, I think the values in this example demonstrate the inanity of PoE's system a lot better than any comparisons to AD&D2 could. .

You missed the mark here by a bit. Like Haplo said, weapons have different recovery speeds. The damage contribution of might remains the same regardless if you swing your 11 dmg club 10 times, or your mace 8 times - the damage per time (total damage) increase is the same, without DR there is no difference, total damage increase is 30% in both cases..

The relative importance of might is higher on low-base damage weapons because enemy DR is fixed, so with e.g. a 30% MIG boost against a target with DR 1:

A dagger which does 10 strikes for 10 damage, that's 10x9=90 with DR, and 10+(10+3-1)=120 with MIG. Increase in damage is 33%.

Something big which does 2 strikes for 50, that's 98 with DR, and 2x(50+15-1)=128 with MIG. Increase in damage is 30.6%.

This is why the new PEN system makes sense (on paper), because fixed DR always screws small strikes in total damage.
Dagger example:
1 hit for 10 damage + 30% = 1 hit for 13 damage. This 13 Damage - 1 Damage absorbed by DR = 12 damage. This 12 Damage x 10 hits = 120 Damage
1 hit for 10 damage + 0 = 1 hit for 10 damage. This 10 Damage - 1 Damage absorbed by DR = 9 damage. This 9 Damage x 10 hits = 90 Damage
Might bonus gave you 120-90 = 30 damage in 10 hits.

Something Big example, with a base 60 damage, for easier calculations:
1 hit for 60 damage + 30% = 1 hit for 80 damage. This 80 Damage - 1 Damage absorbed by DR = 79 Damage. This 79 Damage x 2 hits = 158 Damage
1 hit for 60 damage + 0 = 1 hit for 60 damage. This 60 Damage - 1 Damage absorbed by DR = 59 Damage. This 59 Damage x 2 hits = 118 Damage
Might bonus gave you 158-118 = 40 damage in two hits. If we compare for the same number of hits, the difference grows to 790-590 = 200 damage.

You say that the Dagger's 40 damage is a bigger percentage of the 120 damage, than the Big Thing's 40 damage is as a percentage of the 158 damage. Yet, you are neglecting that one is achieved with 10 hits while the other with just 2.

Conclusion: Other things being equal, the relative value of the Might bonus is higher on HIGH-damage weapons. Exactly for the reason which you present - "since DR is fixed, not % based". :)
Weapons with lower base damage swing faster in PoE, unlike IE games. So in PoE, a dagger is not by design inferior to a longsword (1d4 vs 1d8, both at 1 APR), they have the same DPS (before special effects) , only the dagger will strike more often in a given time period. That's why you have to compare DPS (total damage) if you want to gauge the impact of might and DR, I'm not sure how to explain this more plainly.

Your conclusion makes no sense. If there is no DR, the value of might is the same. If there is DR, the relative increase in damage between no-MIG and MIG favours faster (lower base damage) weapons, because DR screws them order harder, but in both cases, the relative increase from MIG will be higher than the listed value, because of DR.

Additionally, and this is something we've been neglecting in our examples, for the sake of simplicity - by striking fewer times, you are exposing yourself to the hazard of the d100 roll fewer times. Other things being equal, it's more probable to score 2 successive hits than 10 successive hits.

This is why it only makes sense to talk about expected damage you are doing comparisons. If you give the above example a 50% chance to hit for both weapons, expected total damage would be same for both weapons, but BIG ONE would have bigger variance - however this has nothing to do with value of might unless you add complexity (does my big hit now kill the target faster, ie. overkill to save time for instance).




What I missed to point out yesterday is that similar to how Strength is more important in its boost to THAC0 than Perception in its boost to Accuracy, Dexterity in AD&D2 is more important in its boost to AC than Resolve in its boost to Deflection.

Dexterity gives -6/(25-10)= -0.4 AC per point. 1 point of AC is 5% shift in CtH table, dex gives -2% enemy CtH per point. Res gives -1% per point.
Where did you get each of these from: "-6", "(25-10)" Resolve giving -1% per point? 1% of what? This is not making any sense.

25 dexterity gives -6AC, 10 is neutral starting point (both IE [this is favorable to IE] and PoE) , so DEX gives a linearized -0.4 AC per point. Those -0.4 AC gives the enemy -2% CtH. One point of resolve in PoE gives the enemy -1% CtH. So strictly for AC purposes, DEX is about twice as good as RES per point.

What I said, and am saying again - the relevance of AD&D2's AC bonus will remain constant throughout your character's development because you are always throwing a d20, whereas the relevance of your Deflection bonus will diminish with time, as your total Deflection grows and grows with +3 per level and is compared with enemies' increasing Accuracy values.

This is just wrong. Do enemy ThAC0 values not increase between a goblin's whatever and Firkraag's -7?
They are relevant in both games, with the caveat that it's much easier to cap out in IE.


This difference in the relevance of AC bonus vs Deflection bonus is inevitable because of how attack resolution is calculated in AD&D2 vs PoE. As a consequence of this fact, I conclude that a point invested in AD&D2's Dexterity is worth more than a point invested in PoE's Resolve. As already stated, point-for-point value is not comparable because in PoE you start with 6 attributes at 10 and 16 points (I think it was?) to spread, whereas in AD&D2 you may start with a total of 90 points if you roll high for Attributes.

For AC values point for point? Sure, nobody denies that.

Like you yourself said, point for point value is not a great measure since they are also allocated differently and give additional bonuses (thieving, ranged thaco vs will, concentration, dialogue).


Overall, yeah, AD&D2, as implemented in BG/IWD/BGII has fewer base attributes that are important in combat, but they are more important relative to PoE's attributes' importance in combat is.

But all of PoE's attributes are relevant for all classes in combat!
For a Bg2 archer, I will dumpstat int (ok MFs) and cha without ill effects. If I dump INT for a ranger your stuns are useless, Mark prey is useless, you can't use scrolls summons pots etc, with no RES you will get chain interrupted and your damage drop to 0 if anyone as much as blinks at you.





I don't know what you mean that it's close, it's evident that the benefits are bigger for investing in Strength and Dexterity than in Might, Perception and Resolve. I think these benefits are comparable between the games. The price of attribute points however is not directly comparable, but in the general case an attribute point comes cheaper in AD&D2 than in PoE.

You've not proven anything.

Strength is better than MIG per point for melee damage, I never claimed otherwise (says as much in the first post), since it's basically MIG+PER (+damage/-thAC0) rolled into one, DEX gives you more physical eHP than resolve.


It doesn't matter how good they are because there is nothing else on which to spend your points. If STR didn't give thAC0 (so it would still be a bit better than MIG), you'd max it, because there is no other attribute to consider if you want melee damage, PoE has 3 other attributes of interest for raw damage.
If you really really want to give this question a proper treatment, you need a simulator for IE and PoE melee DPS, then calculate the impact.

This is why the new PEN system makes sense (on paper), because fixed DR always screws small strikes in total damage.

Don't you mean that's why percentile reduction makes sense. The PEN system is a rather obtuse implementation of it!

It looks pretty stupid, no idea what JES is going for.

Didn't New Vegas have a simple DT/DR system where you just took the better reduction out of the two, kind of like Underrail?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
It's not about their power, but how they function - IE items and spells mostly SET to a certain value, while PoE's are all + buffs. The first invalidates how you spend your points at character creation, the second is strengthened by it.

Since I have been disagreeing often with what you are writing here, let me agree that BG2's spells/items buffing to set values was moronic.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
The items that set attributes in BG are mostly used to get the most out of the companions, though. F.e., giving Kagain the Brawling Hands for more AC or giving Viconia the Hands of Takkok to make her a very good tank since she can equip better armor. There were enough other magical items to put in the other slots. This prevented too quick stat bloat when a score of 19 or higher is very rare. Yeah, items like Crom Faeyr give you 25 STR, but it's a legendary weapon and one-of-a-kind. They also freed spell slots for other spells.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Sure, give me the same for an IE game and I'll take you up on it. I'm sure you realise how retarded this bait is, since both games can be done with 5 companions and your PC tucked away somewhere, to say the least.

Psure somebody soloed PoE with a naked ranger tho, IE games solos are a dime a dozen.
This is completely separated from logic. Why should I have to prove there are nonviable builds in the IE games, when we all know there indeed are such builds? Even Josh has stated that, as one thing he wanted to avoid in PoE! And why should I have to prove a statement I never made? On the other hand, I am very sure I saw the statement made by Haplo - "In practice not all builds are viable."

It's calculated the same way. For PoE roll d100 and add it to (ACC-DEF), good stuff if >15. For IE roll d20 and add it to (AC - ThAC0) , hit if > 1.
I'm trying to be polite, but you really should do your research before insisting on things which are... not true.
1. What you're omitting is that in AD&D2 you don't get -3 THAC0 and -3 AC at every level. There is much less dynamism and much lighter calculations in AD&D2, which is a huge advantage for a number of reasons on which I won't dwell now.
2. It's "THAC0 - AC". :)
3. The shifting of thresholds for AD&D2's combat resolution is much more simple than that in PoE (part of the huge advantage I mentioned). To quote an AD&D2 example expressed in PoE terms: If your THAC0 is 10 and you are hitting a target with an AC of 2, your miss threshold shifts from 1-10 to 1-8 (roll anything between 1 and 7 and you miss), and your crit threshold remains at 20 (only 20 is a crit). Every value in-between is a hit.
4. The rules for scoring a crit in PoE are impossible to recreate in AD&D2 because you have to exceed 100 to score a crit. It's impossible to score successive crits in AD&D2 in the way in which it's possible in PoE. Yes, it's possible to move your crit range down from 20 to 19-20, for high level warrior characters, but this is nowhere near what a PoE character can do with an enemy that this character is outmatching severely. This is a big thing, available to few classes and at high levels in AD&D2. It *feels* exceptional when attained, and it's more noticeable when it comes into effect.
5. Armor prevents hits in AD&D2, in PoE it softens (through Graze range) or prevents, before item (from Armor equipped) effects reduce the damage to a minimum of 1. I know you already know that.
6. Critical hit damage is x2 in AD&D2 (in extreme cases it's x3), in PoE it's x1.5.


If you don't think average damage per hit is a concept applicable to DnD I don't know what to say really. Average damage per hit is the first part of expected damage in a given timeframe (chance to hit x strikes in t x average damage), so expected DPS. Any kind of comparisons without these are fruitless.
Your calculations of this "Average damage per hit" would only be close to correct if you take into the equation the possibility scoring a miss as well. Also, the possibility for scoring a graze or a crit. Once you do that, you'll have an example which will be... less wrong. "Less wrong" because a real DPS calculation has to take into account all active modifiers on your damage, hit probability, and (because we're in PoE) of action and recovery speed. The latter - the "S" component in DPS - includes factoring in weapon speed, which are not documented and do not exist in a measurable form anywhere except in the game's source code.

That's why it's useless to think of DPS, a good simulation of DPS would be too difficult to calculate, but such is the way of PoE, the system which is supposedly superior to AD&D2 :)

I'm as puzzled as you are, since the +APR you gain from levels is independent of attributes. If you want to multiply the value of STR by the APR (calculate DPS impact) you get, then you'd have to take into account talents and abilities for both PoE and IE. It's pointless.
I'm comparing the grades in which "action speed" raises and for how many classes it actually does. The IE games have three speeds - Slowed, Normal, and Hasted, and it suits the games just fine. Multiplying the value of STR by the APR would give me DPS impact? How? And, DPS in an IE game? I am starting to be convinced you are very confused about this DPS thing :D


Weapons with lower base damage swing faster in PoE, unlike IE games. So in PoE, a dagger is not by design inferior to a longsword (1d4 vs 1d8, both at 1 APR), they have the same DPS (before special effects) , only the dagger will strike more often in a given time period. That's why you have to compare DPS (total damage) if you want to gauge the impact of might and DR, I'm not sure how to explain this more plainly.

Your conclusion makes no sense. If there is no DR, the value of might is the same. If there is DR, the relative increase in damage between no-MIG and MIG favours faster (lower base damage) weapons, because DR screws them order harder, but in both cases, the relative increase from MIG will be higher than the listed value, because of DR.
First, there is no DPS. You need to get this DPS out of your head somehow, it's twisting your whole understanding both of PoE's system and of AD&D2.

Once we move this "per second" (a concept which doesn't exist at all in AD&D2, and is practically impossible to calculate in PoE, outside of concrete setups of character/weapon/active modifiers) out of the way, how do you propose to measure the effect of changing one factor (Might bonus) on the result of two products (the damage output of two weapons), when you refuse to keep the other factors static? What you are doing is not even correct arithmetic. What I proposed and can demonstrate, is to compare only one hit with each weapon. This demonstrates clearly that the scaling bonus to damage from Might favors weapons with higher base damage. You didn't like this example because it doesn't agree with your own assertion.


This is why it only makes sense to talk about expected damage you are doing comparisons. If you give the above example a 50% chance to hit for both weapons, expected total damage would be same for both weapons, but BIG ONE would have bigger variance - however this has nothing to do with value of might unless you add complexity (does my big hit now kill the target faster, ie. overkill to save time for instance).
Aha, you seem to be half-admitting your own error. If we are going with the same hit probability, I'd have to take a 50% chance on each of the dagger's 10 hits, and on each of the other weapon's 2 hits, and then, guess which weapon is more probable to score all of its hits, and thus reach the aforementioned 40pts of bonus damage! ;) Hint, the one that exposes itself to risk fewer times. Friendly advice, stay away from casinos :D


25 dexterity gives -6AC, 10 is neutral starting point (both IE [this is favorable to IE] and PoE) , so DEX gives a linearized -0.4 AC per point. Those -0.4 AC gives the enemy -2% CtH. One point of resolve in PoE gives the enemy -1% CtH. So strictly for AC purposes, DEX is about twice as good as RES per point.
1. I'd like it noted that 25 Dexterity is a pretty cooked-up example for AD&D2.
2. 10 is not a neutral starting point, 8 is in AD&D2.
3. No one in an AD&D2-based game cares what's the linearized AC gain, because it's gained by the whole points. And IMO, that is much for the better.
4. Point 3. makes the rest of the calculations irrelevant to a player.

This is just wrong. Do enemy ThAC0 values not increase between a goblin's whatever and Firkraag's -7?
They are relevant in both games, with the caveat that it's much easier to cap out in IE.
They do change, but does your +3 Hit Probability Adjustment (only attainable in an extreme case of warrior class with 18/00 Strength) ever become one 20th, or even less, as a contribution to your THAC0? That's what I meant, and said three times now.

But all of PoE's attributes are relevant for all classes in combat!
I am not denying that. My argument is that the relevance of Strength for Hit Probability and Damage, as well as of Dexterity for AC is greater than the respective relevance of Might and Perception for Hit Probability and Damage, and of Resolve for Deflection.


Strength is better than MIG per point for melee damage, I never claimed otherwise (says as much in the first post), since it's basically MIG+PER (+damage/-thAC0) rolled into one, DEX gives you more physical eHP than resolve.
Ok, if by "eHP" you mean armor, then we are in agreement.
Actually, no. The Strength bonus to damage doesn't scale with weapon damage in the way that the Mighht bonus to damage scales with weapon damage. You are wrong on that account as well.

It doesn't matter how good they are because there is nothing else on which to spend your points. If STR didn't give thAC0 (so it would still be a bit better than MIG), you'd max it, because there is no other attribute to consider if you want melee damage, PoE has 3 other attributes of interest for raw damage.
If you really really want to give this question a proper treatment, you need a simulator for IE and PoE melee DPS, then calculate the impact.
Aha, you are reaching the same conclusions as me in the end then. I already wrote pretty much the same things in this post and the previous I made.
 
Last edited:

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
It's calculated the same way. For PoE roll d100 and add it to (ACC-DEF), good stuff if >15. For IE roll d20 and add it to (AC - ThAC0) , hit if > 1.
I'm trying to be polite, but you really should do your research before insisting on things which are... not true.
1. What you're omitting is that in AD&D2 you don't get -3 THAC0 and -3 AC at every level. There is much less dynamism and much lighter calculations in AD&D2, which is a huge advantage for a number of reasons on which I won't dwell now.
2. It's "THAC0 - AC". :)
3. The shifting of thresholds for AD&D2's combat resolution is much more simple than that in PoE (part of the huge advantage I mentioned). To quote an AD&D2 example expressed in PoE terms: If your THAC0 is 10 and you are hitting a target with an AC of 2, your miss threshold shifts from 1-10 to 1-8 (roll anything between 1 and 7 and you miss), and your crit threshold remains at 20 (only 20 is a crit). Every value in-between is a hit.
4. The rules for scoring a crit in PoE are impossible to recreate in AD&D2 because you have to exceed 100 to score a crit. It's impossible to score successive crits in AD&D2 in the way in which it's possible in PoE. Yes, it's possible to move your crit range down from 20 to 19-20, for high level warrior characters, but this is nowhere near what a PoE character can do with an enemy that this character is outmatching severely. This is a big thing, available to few classes and at high levels in AD&D2. It *feels* exceptional when attained, and it's more noticeable when it comes into effect.
5. Armor prevents hits in AD&D2, in PoE it softens (through Graze range) or prevents, before item (from Armor equipped) effects reduce the damage to a minimum of 1. I know you already know that.
6. Critical hit damage is x2 in AD&D2 (in extreme cases it's x3), in PoE it's x1.5.

1. No, enemy thAC0 and AC is lowered arbitrarily so that they remain a challenge as you level up, that's much surely more transparent.

2. I'm not certain how old you are, but if you started grade school you'd know that signs flip when you move over the equal sign. Read what I wrote and http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/THAC0 carefully, I'm sure you'll get it eventually.

3. It's much more simple only in your head. It's the same equation dude.

4. You mean its impossible to score successive crits unless you use that fancy HLA? Damn feels exceptional (how is this relevant again?)

5. Defense in PoE only shifts the tables, it does't change their content. You need g2m, h2g or h2c conversion for that.

6. No, it's x1.5 base in PoE, which can be modified to beyond 2.

If you don't think average damage per hit is a concept applicable to DnD I don't know what to say really. Average damage per hit is the first part of expected damage in a given timeframe (chance to hit x strikes in t x average damage), so expected DPS. Any kind of comparisons without these are fruitless.
Your calculations of this "Average damage per hit" would only be close to correct if you take into the equation the possibility scoring a miss as well. Also, the possibility for scoring a graze or a crit. Once you do that, you'll have an example which will be... less wrong. "Less wrong" because a real DPS calculation has to take into account all active modifiers on your damage, hit probability, and (because we're in PoE) of action and recovery speed. The latter - the "S" component in DPS - includes factoring in weapon speed, which are not documented and do not exist in a measurable form anywhere except in the game's source code.

That's why it's useless to think of DPS, a good simulation of DPS would be too difficult to calculate, but such is the way of PoE, the system which is supposedly superior to AD&D2 :)

You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Which weapons belong to which speed classes IS documented, it's in the tooltip.
You don't need a DPS sim to realise might doesn't favour higher base damage weapons.

I'm as puzzled as you are, since the +APR you gain from levels is independent of attributes. If you want to multiply the value of STR by the APR (calculate DPS impact) you get, then you'd have to take into account talents and abilities for both PoE and IE. It's pointless.
I'm comparing the grades in which "action speed" raises and for how many classes it actually does. The IE games have three speeds - Slowed, Normal, and Hasted, and it suits the games just fine. Multiplying the value of STR by the APR would give me DPS impact? How? And, DPS in an IE game? I am starting to be convinced you are very confused about this DPS thing :D

If you swing 4 times in a round, how many times would you apply STR bonus to damage?
For advanced users, if you swing 4 times in a round with a 50% CtH, how much added damage would you expect with 18/91 strength compared to 9 strength?

Weapons with lower base damage swing faster in PoE, unlike IE games. So in PoE, a dagger is not by design inferior to a longsword (1d4 vs 1d8, both at 1 APR), they have the same DPS (before special effects) , only the dagger will strike more often in a given time period. That's why you have to compare DPS (total damage) if you want to gauge the impact of might and DR, I'm not sure how to explain this more plainly.

Your conclusion makes no sense. If there is no DR, the value of might is the same. If there is DR, the relative increase in damage between no-MIG and MIG favours faster (lower base damage) weapons, because DR screws them order harder, but in both cases, the relative increase from MIG will be higher than the listed value, because of DR.
First, there is no DPS. You need to get this DPS out of your head somehow, it's twisting your whole understanding both of PoE's system and of AD&D2.

Once we move this "per second" (a concept which doesn't exist at all in AD&D2, and is practically impossible to calculate in PoE, outside of concrete setups of character/weapon/active modifiers) out of the way, how do you propose to measure the effect of changing one factor (Might bonus) on the result of two products (the damage output of two weapons), when you refuse to keep the other factors static? What you are doing is not even correct arithmetic.

I used damage per round before, which is just damage per 6 seconds, aka DPS, but you had problems with it as well.
The factor which was kept static is total damage pre DR. You didn't, that's why you got wildly wrong conclusions.

This is why it only makes sense to talk about expected damage when you are doing comparisons. If you give the above example a 50% chance to hit for both weapons, expected total damage would be same for both weapons, but BIG ONE would have bigger variance - however this has nothing to do with value of might unless you add complexity (does my big hit now kill the target faster, ie. overkill to save time for instance).
Aha, you seem to be half-admitting your own error. If we are going with the same hit probability, I'd have to take a 50% chance on each of the dagger's 10 hits, and on each of the other weapon's 2 hits, and then, guess which weapon is more probable to score all it's hits ;) Hint, the one that exposes itself to risk fewer times. Friendly advice, stay away from casinos :D

Read the bolded part you quoted a few times.
I hope you don't stay away from casinos, I'm sure they'd love you there.

25 dexterity gives -6AC, 10 is neutral starting point (both IE [this is favorable to IE] and PoE) , so DEX gives a linearized -0.4 AC per point. Those -0.4 AC gives the enemy -2% CtH. One point of resolve in PoE gives the enemy -1% CtH. So strictly for AC purposes, DEX is about twice as good as RES per point.
1. I'd like it noted that 25 Dexterity is a pretty cooked-up example for AD&D2.
2. 10 is not a neutral starting point, 8 is in AD&D2.
3. No one in an AD&D2-based game cares what's the linearized AC gain, because it's gained by the whole points. And IMO, that is much for the better.
4. Point 3. makes the rest of the calculations irrelevant to a player.

1. That makes the comparison more tilted towards PoE
2. read 1. 8-20 makes it -0.33 per point.
3. If you are making a comparison between system, you need comparable units.
4. None of this is relevant to players.


This is just wrong. Do enemy ThAC0 values not increase between a goblin's whatever and Firkraag's -7?
They are relevant in both games, with the caveat that it's much easier to cap out in IE.
They do change, but does your +3 Hit Probability Adjustment (only attainable in an extreme case of warrior class with 18/00 Strength) ever become one 20th, or even less, as a contribution to your THAC0? That's what I meant, and said three times now.
Of course it does, why wouldn't it?

When thAC0 is -10 thanks to potion of power, bless, chant, -5 weapons, -5 gauntles, -5 kensai, lower base thAC0(!!!) and whatever other stuff you muster, the value of that -3 decreases. What confuses you here?

Extreme case of 18/00 strength? Surely you're joking.

But all of PoE's attributes are relevant for all classes in combat!
I am not denying that. My argument is that the relevance of Strength for Hit Probability and Damage, as well as of Dexterity for AC is greater than the respective relevance of Might and Perception for Hit Probability and Damage, and of Resolve for Deflection.

Strength is better than MIG per point for melee damage, I never claimed otherwise (says as much in the first post), since it's basically MIG+PER (+damage/-thAC0) rolled into one, DEX gives you more physical eHP than resolve.
Ok, if by "eHP" you mean armor, then we are in agreement.

:positive:


It doesn't matter how good they are because there is nothing else on which to spend your points. If STR didn't give thAC0 (so it would still be a bit better than MIG), you'd max it, because there is no other attribute to consider if you want melee damage, PoE has 3 other attributes of interest for raw damage.
If you really really want to give this question a proper treatment, you need a simulator for IE and PoE melee DPS, then calculate the impact.
Aha, you are reaching the same conclusions as me in the end then. I already wrote pretty much the same things in this post and the previous I made.

Not sure how since the majority of the stuff you wrote is wrong, but great, I guess.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,153
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Stooping to shitposting instead of arguments. The end is near.
It's calculated the same way. For PoE roll d100 and add it to (ACC-DEF), good stuff if >15. For IE roll d20 and add it to (AC - ThAC0) , hit if > 1.
I'm trying to be polite, but you really should do your research before insisting on things which are... not true.
1. What you're omitting is that in AD&D2 you don't get -3 THAC0 and -3 AC at every level. There is much less dynamism and much lighter calculations in AD&D2, which is a huge advantage for a number of reasons on which I won't dwell now.
2. It's "THAC0 - AC". :)
3. The shifting of thresholds for AD&D2's combat resolution is much more simple than that in PoE (part of the huge advantage I mentioned). To quote an AD&D2 example expressed in PoE terms: If your THAC0 is 10 and you are hitting a target with an AC of 2, your miss threshold shifts from 1-10 to 1-8 (roll anything between 1 and 7 and you miss), and your crit threshold remains at 20 (only 20 is a crit). Every value in-between is a hit.
4. The rules for scoring a crit in PoE are impossible to recreate in AD&D2 because you have to exceed 100 to score a crit. It's impossible to score successive crits in AD&D2 in the way in which it's possible in PoE. Yes, it's possible to move your crit range down from 20 to 19-20, for high level warrior characters, but this is nowhere near what a PoE character can do with an enemy that this character is outmatching severely. This is a big thing, available to few classes and at high levels in AD&D2. It *feels* exceptional when attained, and it's more noticeable when it comes into effect.
5. Armor prevents hits in AD&D2, in PoE it softens (through Graze range) or prevents, before item (from Armor equipped) effects reduce the damage to a minimum of 1. I know you already know that.
6. Critical hit damage is x2 in AD&D2 (in extreme cases it's x3), in PoE it's x1.5.

4. You mean its impossible to score successive crits unless you use that fancy HLA? Damn feels exceptional (how is this relevant again?)

5. Defense in PoE only shifts the tables, it does't change their content. You need g2m, h2g or h2c conversion for that.

6. No, it's x1.5 base in PoE, which can be modified to beyond 2.

3. It's much more simple only in your head. It's the same equation dude.
Reading comprehension: Failed. Spelling it out for you - each of these 6 points I made proves that the Attack rolls are calculated differently. Each of these 6 points proves that your statement "it's calculated the same way" is wrong. Attack resolution in PoE is not, repeat - not, calculated the same as in AD&D2.

1. No, enemy thAC0 and AC is lowered arbitrarily so that they remain a challenge as you level up, that's much surely more transparent.
Reading comprehension: Failed. I'm not talking about enemy THAC0 or AC. I am saying that Deflection and Accuracy are raising to much greater heights in PoE than the depths to which THAC0 and AC are falling in AD&D2. From this follows that individual bonus points you get during character generation in PoE are worth less, as the game progresses, than individual bonus points are worth in AD&D2.

(AC - ThAC0)
2. It's "THAC0 - AC". :)
2. I'm not certain how old you are, but if you started grade school you'd know that signs flip when you move over the equal sign. Read what I wrote and http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/THAC0 carefully, I'm sure you'll get it eventually.
You are trying to tell me that AC - THAC0 is the same as THAC0 - AC? 8 (THAC0) - 4 (AC) = 4 (AC) - 8 (THAC0)? How do you even manage when you go to the local shop?

It's funny to be getting patronizing remarks on maths ability from someone who is on record failing both at basic arithmetic and probability. :lol:

You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Which weapons belong to which speed classes IS documented, it's in the tooltip.
The keywords for weapon speed are useless. If you want to calculate DPS you need the values behind those keywords, and these are not displayed anywhere. I doubt anyone knows them with certainty.

You don't need a DPS sim to realise might doesn't favour higher base damage weapons.
Failing at probability once again. Compare hit for hit if you are getting confused. You are trying to argue that 3% of 10 damage is more than 3% of 20 damage of a higher base-damage weapon. At least you acknowledge with half mouth that DPS is not ascertainable.

If you swing 4 times in a round, how many times would you apply STR bonus to damage?
For advanced users, if you swing 4 times in a round with a 50% CtH, how much added damage would you expect with 18/91 strength compared to 9 strength?
Depends on how many times I succeed in hitting, and what weapon I am using.

I used damage per round before, which is just damage per 6 seconds, aka DPS, but you had problems with it as well.
Damage per round / 6 is not DPS in the IE games. The smallest unit of time in the IE games for which you can get damage per unit of time is the full round. It doesn't get smaller than that. You can't split the round in smaller parts.

The factor which was kept static is total damage pre DR. You didn't, that's why you got wildly wrong conclusions.
How do you get static total damage on weapons which have different base damage? Rhetorical question. I see you are getting it by manipulating the number of hits, but you can't see the fault in your logic here.

This is why it only makes sense to talk about expected damage when you are doing comparisons. If you give the above example a 50% chance to hit for both weapons, expected total damage would be same for both weapons, but BIG ONE would have bigger variance - however this has nothing to do with value of might unless you add complexity (does my big hit now kill the target faster, ie. overkill to save time for instance).
Aha, you seem to be half-admitting your own error. If we are going with the same hit probability, I'd have to take a 50% chance on each of the dagger's 10 hits, and on each of the other weapon's 2 hits, and then, guess which weapon is more probable to score all it's hits ;) Hint, the one that exposes itself to risk fewer times. Friendly advice, stay away from casinos :D

Read the bolded part you quoted a few times.
I hope you don't stay away from casinos, I'm sure they'd love you there.
Me, no. But they'd love your type. By now you have tried to convince me, and everyone else, that:
1. (3% of X) > (3% of Y) where X < Y
2. X - Y = Y - X where Y != X, X > 0, and Y > 0
3. 10 coin tosses are as probable to give you 10 successive tails, as 2 coin tosses are probable to give you 2 successive tails.

I also have quotes of your posts to provide examples for each of these faulty assertions.

25 dexterity gives -6AC, 10 is neutral starting point (both IE [this is favorable to IE] and PoE) , so DEX gives a linearized -0.4 AC per point. Those -0.4 AC gives the enemy -2% CtH. One point of resolve in PoE gives the enemy -1% CtH. So strictly for AC purposes, DEX is about twice as good as RES per point.
1. I'd like it noted that 25 Dexterity is a pretty cooked-up example for AD&D2.
2. 10 is not a neutral starting point, 8 is in AD&D2.
3. No one in an AD&D2-based game cares what's the linearized AC gain, because it's gained by the whole points. And IMO, that is much for the better.
4. Point 3. makes the rest of the calculations irrelevant to a player.

1. That makes the comparison more tilted towards PoE
2. read 1. 8-20 makes it -0.33 per point.
So, we make up the data in order to fit our assertion better. There is no such example in all the IE games, except maybe at the end of ToB.

3. If you are making a comparison between system, you need comparable units.
4. None of this is relevant to players.
Strawman, or Reading comprehension: Failed.
At this point am almost positive you do not understand a significant part of what you read. I am not comparing between systems. What I am arguing is that within the same system one point of one Attribute is more valuable than one point in another Attribute is valuable in another system. I think everyone has understood this by now, except you.

This is just wrong. Do enemy ThAC0 values not increase between a goblin's whatever and Firkraag's -7?
They are relevant in both games, with the caveat that it's much easier to cap out in IE.
They do change, but does your +3 Hit Probability Adjustment (only attainable in an extreme case of warrior class with 18/00 Strength) ever become one 20th, or even less, as a contribution to your THAC0? That's what I meant, and said three times now.
Of course it does, why wouldn't it?

When thAC0 is -10 thanks to potion of power, bless, chant, -5 weapons, -5 gauntles, -5 kensai, lower base thAC0(!!!) and whatever other stuff you muster, the value of that -3 decreases. What confuses you here?
So, when you really stretch it, you can reach conditions where for one specific kit for one specific class, with specific equpment, you get a comparable decrease of the significance of an Attribute bonus, and then you compare that with a rule that applies to each class in PoE? :lol: You seriously propose this comparison as proof of your statement that deflection bonus from Resolve is equally significant as AC bonus from Dexterity?

Extreme case of 18/00 strength? Surely you're joking.
You can have 18/00 Strength on a small number of classes and after a good amount of time spent rerolling, so no, I'm not joking. You are welcome to explain why I would be joking, and why something attainable for a small number of AD&D2 classes can be compared to bonuses attainable by every class in PoE.

Strength is better than MIG per point for melee damage, I never claimed otherwise (says as much in the first post), since it's basically MIG+PER (+damage/-thAC0) rolled into one, DEX gives you more physical eHP than resolve.
Ok, if by "eHP" you mean armor, then we are in agreement.

:positive:
As I already wrote to correct myself: Actually, no. The Strength bonus to damage doesn't scale with weapon damage in the way that the Mighht bonus to damage scales with weapon damage. You are wrong on that account as well.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom