Divinity Divinity: Original Sin - Enhanced Edition

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Pretty balanced perspective. I played before much of the balance patches and by reading your impressions I am guessing I am in for some nice surprises when I play the EE with jacked up difficulty. I really found it to be quite a step up from their previous games and I am pretty excited to see next iterations of TB combat and character systems from Larian.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I beat it before the balance tweaks as well and am waiting for EE / hardcore mode now before replaying it, so I'm glad to hear they did a good job with those.

 

[Cosmo]

...

So you liked the game, but did you like it enough to swallow your tirades about Larian's cargo cult approach to game design ?

 

[Roguey]

I forgot to mention that the "find the tiny button(s)" puzzles were in fact as frustrating as I thought they'd be. Also Pokrovsky's non-trad soundtrack was as good I expected. I imagine it's going to be difficult for Larian to find a suitable replacement.

So you liked the game, but did you like it enough to swallow your tirades about Larian's cargo cult approach to game design ?

The removal/tweaking of its cargo cult elements would make it better, so no.

 

[Rivmusique]

"find the tiny button(s)" puzzles

Dear lord, I'd forgotten

One of those had me slowly moving around the room a few steps at a time, turn the camera every-which-way while mousing all over the screen, repeat for far too long. I hope I can remember where those bastards are when it comes time for a replay.

 

[t]

I forgot to mention that the "find the tiny button(s)" puzzles were in fact as frustrating as I thought they'd be. Also Pokrovsky's non-trad soundtrack was as good I expected. I imagine it's going to be difficult for Larian to find a suitable replacement.

So you liked the game, but did you like it enough to swallow your tirades about Larian's cargo cult approach to game design ?

The removal/tweaking of its cargo cult elements would make it better, so no.

Does "cargo cult" have any meaning really? Or do you just use it cause you like the sound of it?

 

[Roguey]

Does "cargo cult" have any meaning really? Or do you just use it cause you like the sound of it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming applied to game design

 

[t]

Does "cargo cult" have any meaning really? Or do you just use it cause you like the sound of it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming applied to game design

Can't really see instances of Larian copying and pasting the same design elements into different domains where it serves no purpose, but if you say so.

 

[SCO]

It's not only where it serves no purpose but where it is a 'customary' solution so you avoid thinking about designing for your individual game.

Basically the safe brainless option. Compare a game like Gungnir to other countless, boring, cowardly FFTactics clones.

Like, i was seriously bummed about D:OS spell cooldowns, about how you could get almost every skill in a early vendor (and dumbfuck gamers ofc demanded every skill there in patches), how random itemization was copy pasted from older Larian games (and they said it was a ultima 7 spiritual successor lolz)

Cargo cult is a real enemy

 

[Roguey]

Cooldowns don't come across to me as cargo cult, they're there for balance. With enough int a lot of spells end up having a cooldown of one turn and why yes this does make things easier compared to playing with a lower int.

On further reflection I was likely wrong here http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...dcore-mode-overview.95991/page-6#post-3672451 Original Sin does in fact have a consistently reinforced theme of tragedy changing people, often for the worse. This applies to the PCs, Leandra, Jake, Madora, Jahan, and probably the DLC companions too. Overcoming tragedy is another theme (many of those previous persons, the widow of that dead miner), though it isn't applicable to everybody. Maybe they stumbled into this accidentally, but author death and all that.

 

[Bubbles]

It's even more explicit with the DLC companions.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Cooldowns don't come across to me as cargo cult, they're there for balance. With enough int a lot of spells end up having a cooldown of one turn and why yes this does make things easier compared to playing with a lower int.

A cool down can be viewed as a lazy approach. Better to limit resources than insert timers IMO but lots of games just go with the cool down becuase everyone uses them and so why not - assumptive and lazy.

 

[deuxhero]

I have no problem with cooldowns in a turn based game. I thought they made the limit on spells known for lower skill levels major, but not bad enough to making dips worthless (as the best way around them was to cycle different spells). I felt that using it instead of resources was interesting (the traditional MP pool would have changed dips way too much)

I only got as far as the skeleton boss who respawns all the bosses you fought earlier, because fuck that fight (My characters preferred to disable stuff than to actually take hits and do crazy damage, which worked fine for every other fight in the game)

 

[Roguey]

As I mentioned in my post, you can just say to hell with that guy and take the bridge to Luculla Forest to play much easier content (by comparison) until you're like 4-5+ levels above him, in which case, you can trash him because of how much more offense/defense/hp/new abilities you have.

A cool down can be viewed as a lazy approach. Better to limit resources than insert timers IMO but lots of games just go with the cool down becuase everyone uses them and so why not - assumptive and lazy.

I don't think they are lazy or inelegant. Mechanics either achieve their goals or they don't. If they do and the players enjoy them, they are good. if they don't and/or the players don't enjoy them, they are bad.
...
I think they're fine, but it's just one mechanic. As with any timing-based mechanic, I think it needs to be used in conjunction with other tactical considerations to force the player to think more about what to do.

Other tactical considerations = AP, the state of the battlefield.

D:OS's original design used mana. They couldn't make it work, so they rightly cut it.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Well there are better alternatives. I don't know anyone who 'enjoys' cooldowns other than perhaps MOBA addicts. Single player RPGs are no place for cooldowns IMO. People tolerate them and devs jump on that; it allows them to conveniently avoid finding more elegant solutions.

At the very least, reduce the timers to a single global one for martial skills.

You can have the spell or skill take longer to prepare for example. In a RTwP scenario this is manifest by the character standing there with some animation getting ready to do something. In turn based, make some skills negate the ability to move for a turn, take a full turn plus part of the next, take two turns, etc. The player makes the decision to assume the risk and cost of their actions and waiting for an ability to fire based on a decision is more enjoyable than watching a skills bar for the dial to turn 360 degrees so you can fire it again. Every time you look at the timer, your are told "you can't do this for balance reasons I chose not to design around". It's horseshit.

The cooldown IS lazy because the dev doesn't find more creative ways to achieve the same goal mechanically without turning the game into watching cooldowns. They convince themselves that it must be OK since other games were well received in spite of them.

I liked FFXI's method of tactical points allowing the use of any special skill in melee combat. Get to 100 TP and you could fire whatever weapons skill you wanted. Granted this was an MMO but the mechanic worked and here you watched one global TP meter rather than a series of cooldowns for standard skills.

 

[Roguey]

Not too recently there was some goon harping on Vancian casting in the Something Awful Pillars of Eternity thread.

There is no universally loved restriction on awesome abilities, but you need them so you don't get bored.

 

[SCO]

Cooldowns are bad mostly because they turn a effective build incredibly boring due to the spells and abilities used going the same way 90%+ of the time. I much prefer systems that at least force you to vary your ability usage (especially a a bloated #abilities game like D:OS). I have no beef with Vancian system and much prefer them for serious rpgs. If the resting refresh triggers you find some other way, but something that lasts more than 1 encounter plz.

 

[Trodat]

I liked FFXI's method of tactical points allowing the use of any special skill in melee combat. Get to 100 TP and you could fire whatever weapons skill you wanted. Granted this was an MMO but the mechanic worked and here you watched one global TP meter rather than a series of cooldowns for standard skills.

Choosing to use or not to use your skill at 100 TP also added a nice amount of tactics, if you knew you'd be facing one strong mob you could wait till you had 300 TP and then proceed to unleash one devastating weapon skill.

 

[Roguey]

If all the battles played out the same, I wouldn't have had the difficulties I had.

Not to mention all the various resistances/immunities.

Cooldowns don't matter shit until they fix sneaking. You just sneak and hide till your spells are ready again. The only class playable now in D:OS is melee.

"I insist on playing in this particular way, ergo the game is broken"

 

[agris]

I'd love to see a devhouse implement spell components as an alternative to cooldowns or vancian magic. Spell components of the correct scarcity, cost and ease of carrying, combined with a limited or weight-based inventory system, would be fun to try.

 

[Athelas]

The problem with cooldowns is that they encourage very 'meta-gamey' gameplay. I.e. using certain abilities immediately at the start of combat not because it's the best tactic, but because if you use them early enough, they can be available later in combat.

Cooldowns can work to a degree if there's time pressure (as in Invisible Inc), but even then I'm not exactly enamored with the concept.

 

[Zeriel]

Does "cargo cult" have any meaning really? Or do you just use it cause you like the sound of it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming applied to game design

Can't really see instances of Larian copying and pasting the same design elements into different domains where it serves no purpose, but if you say so.

What Roguey really means by that is "they use older design elements that I think are dumb and outmoded". It doesn't mean that Larian didn't think about what they are doing, just that Roguey thinks they didn't.

 

[agris]

I think the excessive amount of skills in WL2 is a good example of cargo cult design. It looks like some of those skills were included more to have a big skill list rather than to enable different play styles or meaningful / logical alternative resolutions. The series of "ass" skills stands out the most. Of course I haven't played WL2 since the early beta..

 

[Zeriel]

I think the excessive amount of skills in WL2 is a good example of cargo cult design. It looks like some of those skills were included more to have a big skill list rather than to enable different play styles or meaningful / logical alternative resolutions. The series of "ass" skills stands out the most. Of course I haven't played WL2 since the early beta..

That's only an example of cargo cult design if they didn't intend the skills to have a use, if they literally just went, "Well, guess we should have all these skills, but fuck putting in content for them". It can just as easily be a case of missed or poor execution rather than them mindlessly copying design elements they didn't plan to use.

In other words, mediocrity in an area is not absolute proof that the team had no understanding of the design elements they were using.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I liked FFXI's method of tactical points allowing the use of any special skill in melee combat. Get to 100 TP and you could fire whatever weapons skill you wanted. Granted this was an MMO but the mechanic worked and here you watched one global TP meter rather than a series of cooldowns for standard skills.

Choosing to use or not to use your skill at 100 TP also added a nice amount of tactics, if you knew you'd be facing one strong mob you could wait till you had 300 TP and then proceed to unleash one devastating weapon skill.

Skill chains are awesome and rarely reproduced in other games. I found the elemental affinities great.