Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup questions/thread

Unwanted

Hornawkawk

Unwanted
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
362
i was wrong, djinn won't exist for awhile yet

djinn, lava orcs, and the new branch have all been pushed back to 0.14 :cry:

Too bad. I was hoping for some new races/classes in 0.14. So what's actually new in 0.13? Only rebalancing?
 

TripJack

Hedonist
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
5,132
gargoyles and an update of the crypts to make them more difficult seem to be the biggest additions

sludge elves, priests, the stabbing skill, and the traps skill are the biggest removals
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,982
I guess that makes stealth more useful if anything. No more putting things to sleep and stabbing them with your 0 stealth troll.
 

Castanova

Prophet
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
2,949
Location
The White Visitation
I'm wondering (hoping) if the Stabbing change means that Enchanters can actually hope to get a win without turning into Necromancers at the mid-game.
 

Stabwound

Arcane
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,240
I doubt any possible change to the game would make stealth/stabbing/hexes a viable sole tactic for the entire game, but it's still satisfying as fuck to one-hit stab an orb of fire or anything else on Zot:5. I can't imagine they'd ever be able to balance the game well and have stealth/stabbing as a primary tactic without it being insanely overpowered. There's always going to be shit that's magic immune.

I haven't played the game much at all over the past several versions so maybe my experiences are inaccurate now, but it's always been viable to play an enchanter and have self-buffs and melee as a backup plan for when your stabs go to shit. I'm guessing some shit was nerfed, but confusing touch/silence/tukima's dance were enough to get through the main game alone if you built your character around it.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,982
If they made the checks harder but less frequent it would do the trick. The retarded part about stealth currently is the fact that you get utterly fucked if something wakes up on the turn you walk next to it to stab it. It makes stealth stabbing pointless, since it's only safe versus targets that can't hurt you anyways. Having stealth fail sometimes doesn't have to mean failure = fuck the player in the ass as hard as possible. Failed spells don't give the enemies free turns to beat the shit out of you while preventing you from ever casting spells on them again.

If you fail the stealth check, it should happen before you're standing next to the hydra that can one shot you or in the middle of the room of 20 orc priests. Or it should take them a turn or two to finish waking up.

Constant stealth checks don't make any sense anyways. People sneaking around don't suddenly make way more noise at random intervals. You're either noisy/visible enough for a target to notice or you aren't.

Magic's always been the dev team's favourite though, overpowered and favoured in attention from the begining. I don't expect that to ever change.
 

Castanova

Prophet
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
2,949
Location
The White Visitation
I just started an Enchanter tonight and so far the main effect of the change is that I'm pumping Stealth instead of Stabbing, which means I'm somewhat less reliant on Ensorsceled Hibernation. By somewhat less reliant I mean that instead of casting it on 100% of non-undead enemies, I'm casting it on 85%. Also, I had extra XP to level up Short Blades and some of the caster skills earlier than before.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
My first win! With the easiest race but still!

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.0 (tiles) character file.

1930327 Januszek the Skullcrusher (level 27, 89/180 HPs)
Began as a Gargoyle Fighter on Oct 19, 2013.
Was the Champion of Okawaru.
Escaped with the Orb
... and 4 runes on Oct 26, 2013!

The game lasted 06:02:33 (105486 turns).

Januszek the Skullcrusher (Gargoyle Fighter) Turns: 105486, Time: 06:02:33

HP 89/180 AC 59 Str 36 XL: 27
MP 29/29 EV 18 Int 13 God: Okawaru [******]
Gold 7923 SH 42 Dex 12 Spells: 0 memorised, 26 levels left

Res.Fire : + + . See Invis. : . y - +8 demon whip of Peob {slash, +Blink +Inv Str+4}
Res.Cold : + + . Warding : . L - +8 pearl dragon armour of Integrity {+Fly rPois rN+}
Life Prot.: + + . Conserve : + F - +2 shield
Res.Poison: + Res.Corr. : + E - +0 horned helmet {Int+3}
Res.Elec. : + Clarity : . T - -1 elf cloak {rCorr, Cons}
Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . r - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
Res.Mut. : + Rnd.Telep. : + Z - +1 pair of boots {run}
Res.Rott. : + Flight : + I - amulet of resist mutation
Saprovore : . . . k - ring of Attitude {+Fly rElec rPois rC++}
s - ring of Lies {+Blink rF++ AC+4}

@: flying, very slightly contaminated, hasted, very quick, quite resistant to
hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: large and strong wings, fangs 1, talons 2, -10% hp, life protection 1,
screaming 1, electricity resistance, slow healing 1, slow metabolism 1,
teleportitis 1, unbreathing, petrification resistance, AC +20
a: Stop Flying, Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink, Evoke
Invisibility
}: 4/15 runes: barnacled, slimy, silver, gossamer


You escaped.
You worshipped Okawaru.
Okawaru was exalted by your worship.
You were not hungry.

You visited 12 branches of the dungeon, and saw 75 of its levels.
You visited 1 bazaar.
You also visited: Labyrinth, Sewer and Volcano.

You collected 9555 gold pieces.
You spent 1652 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
o - a +5,+8 mace of holy wrath
y - the +8,+8 demon whip of Peob (weapon) {slash, +Blink +Inv Str+4}
(Okawaru gifted it to you on level 5 of the Spider Nest)

It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.

It affects your strength (+4).
It lets you turn invisible.
It lets you blink.
Armour
r - a +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn)
E - a +0 horned helmet of intelligence (worn)
F - a +2 shield (worn)
L - the +8 pearl dragon armour of Integrity (worn) {+Fly rPois rN+}
(You took it off a vault warden on level 5 of the Vaults)

It protects you from poison.
It protects you from negative energy.
It lets you fly.
T - a -1 elven cloak of preservation (worn)
X - a +2 pair of gauntlets of dexterity
Z - a +1 pair of boots of running (worn)
Magical devices
a - a wand of teleportation (2) {unknown}
i - a wand of disintegration (6)
v - a wand of cold (1)
G - a wand of heal wounds (0)
S - a wand of heal wounds (0)
U - a wand of digging (11)
V - a wand of heal wounds (0)
Comestibles
d - 7 bread rations
f - a choko
Scrolls
n - 2 scrolls of holy word
t - a scroll of enchant weapon I
u - 7 scrolls of remove curse
K - a scroll of blinking
R - a scroll of fog
Jewellery
c - the ring of Mnurr {+cTele rElec MR++}
(You took it off a deep elf death mage on level 5 of the Vaults)

[ring of teleport control]
It insulates you from electricity.
It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
e - the ring "Aveqyuff" {rElec rPois rF+ rN+ Stlth--}
(You found it on level 5 of the Crypt)

[ring of positive energy]
It protects you from fire.
It insulates you from electricity.
It protects you from poison.
It makes you much less stealthy.
h - the ring "Kliura" {rC+ Dex+4 SInv}
(You took it off a yaktaur captain on level 5 of the Vaults)

[ring of see invisible]
It affects your dexterity (+4).
It protects you from cold.
k - the ring of Attitude (right hand) {+Fly rElec rPois rC++}
(You found it on level 5 of the Crypt)

[ring of flight]
It greatly protects you from cold.
It insulates you from electricity.
It protects you from poison.
m - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
p - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
q - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion
s - the ring of Lies (left hand) {+Blink rF++ AC+4}
(You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)

[ring of protection]
It affects your AC (+4).
It greatly protects you from fire.
It lets you blink.
x - the amulet "Lapp" {+Rage rF+ rC+}
(You found it on level 5 of the Shoals)

[amulet of rage]
It protects you from fire.
It protects you from cold.
B - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
H - the ring "Mnevupn" {Dex+4 Dam+6 SInv}
(You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)

[ring of see invisible]
It affects your dexterity (+4).
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+6).
I - an amulet of resist mutation (around neck)
M - an uncursed amulet of guardian spirit
N - an uncursed ring of magical power
O - an uncursed ring of positive energy
P - the ring "Pankeo" {AC+1 Int+4}
(You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)

[ring of protection]
It affects your AC (+1).
It affects your intelligence (+4).
Q - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities {unknown}
Y - the ring "Ustiabat" {Hunger- rN+, unknown}
(You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)

[ring of sustenance]
It protects you from negative energy.
Potions
g - 3 potions of berserk rage
z - 4 potions of agility
C - 5 potions of restore abilities
W - 4 potions of brilliance
Orbs of Power
j - the Orb of Zot


Skills:
O Level 27 Fighting
O Level 27 Maces & Flails
+ Level 17,3 Armour
+ Level 17,4 Dodging
+ Level 26,9 Shields
+ Level 4,4 Evocations


You had 26 spell levels left.
You didn't know any spells.



Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to torment.
You are immune to poison.
You can fly continuously.
Your stone body is very resilient (AC +20).
Your wings are large and strong.
You have very sharp teeth.
You have razor-sharp toenails.
You resist negative energy.
You are resistant to electric shocks.
You have a slow metabolism.
You can survive without breathing.
You are immune to petrification.
You are frail (-10% HP).
You occasionally shout uncontrollably.
You heal slowly.
Space occasionally distorts in your vicinity.


Message History

Twouliaf comes into view. A neqoxec comes into view. A large abomination comes into view.
The neqoxec shouts!
You block the large abomination's attack.
You feel yourself speed up.
You block the large abomination's attack.
Twouliaf sneers, "Leave, thou euchred fob-snatching lewdster!"
Twouliaf gestures.
There is an open door here.
A blue devil comes into view.
There is an open door here.
You block the blue devil's attack.
There is an open door here.
The blue devil swoops through the air toward you!
The blue devil hits you but does no damage.
There is an open door here.
There is an open door here.
Unknown command.
There is an open door here.
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon here.
You have escaped!
 

Stabwound

Arcane
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,240
It's funny to see how the devs are ruining this game over time. Now this "runelock" shit where you can't pass D:14 without having a rune, which is fucking retarded. I can't count how many times I wasn't prepared to take on any rune branches by then if not simply because of lack of poison resistance. Putting an arbitrary lock on the dungeon like this is fucking stupid. This game has been on a downward spiral since about 0.7

:decline:
 

TripJack

Hedonist
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
5,132
they've done away with the late Dungeon too, after the rune lock thing it turns into some newfangled branch called the Depths...

and a downward spiral since 0.7? what has been declining since then? you prefer the old skill system? you have something against octopodes? share your wisdom crawl god
 

Stabwound

Arcane
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,240
I quit playing around then, whenever it was that they implemented the random monster movement. More races and the new skill system is fine, but things are deviating way too far from what the game used to be for a long time. I had no idea about this "depths" shit, but it sounds even worse.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
It's funny to see how the devs are ruining this game over time. Now this "runelock" shit where you can't pass D:14 without having a rune, which is fucking retarded. I can't count how many times I wasn't prepared to take on any rune branches by then if not simply because of lack of poison resistance. Putting an arbitrary lock on the dungeon like this is fucking stupid. This game has been on a downward spiral since about 0.7

:decline:
Why in the name of all that is holy would they do that? I often went deeper than D14 without any runes simply because I did not feel like Im prepared for the rune levels. I once cleared nearly the whole Lair without finding a single Plate mail for my character. Why would they straight out forbid you from going deeper if you so desire? To make it more streamlined for the new players? Streamlined roguelike? That sounds like some kind of indie faggotry not a proper roguelike. What am I supposed to do when I get to the D13 and have no poison resistance, shitty gear and a mediocre weapon? Go for a suicide run into one of the rune levels hoping that maybe, maybe I will survive? Its like saying "We want you to play this game in this one particular way.".
 

Stabwound

Arcane
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,240
Yeah, it's simply a terrible design decision. I don't at all understand what the point of it is except making the game arbitrarily more difficult and limiting your freedom.
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
The runelock is in trunk, which is experimental, not in stable as for now. There's no gurantee it'll end up in the next version. Neither is it intended to be a context-less standalone change. Branch Ends are being toned down, and ideas are considered such as a passage from Elf to Dungeon 14+ that allows you to enter it without a rune.

Start panicking once it actually gets into stable.

To make it more streamlined for the new players? Streamlined roguelike? That sounds like some kind of indie faggotry not a proper roguelike. What am I supposed to do when I get to the D13 and have no poison resistance, shitty gear and a mediocre weapon? Go for a suicide run into one of the rune levels hoping that maybe, maybe I will survive? Its like saying "We want you to play this game in this one particular way.".
Eh, are you trying to complain that the devs are "making the game SUPAH EASY and streamlined for casuals" or "the game is making it TOO HARD for me and only autists can enjoy it?"

This change was made because the optimal strategy 99% of the time was indeed, to enter the rune levels before Dungeon 14+. You're vastly overestimating their danger even without Poison Resistance. However, the branch ends were ridiculously more dangerous than the rest of the branch levels, so then the addendum to the optimal strategy is to clear all the rune levels except the final one, then proceed downwards to the Dungeon, THEN get the Lair runes when you're so buffed up with all the loot .and EXP you get from the dungeon that you trivialize them.

And yes, this is basically an experimental change in order to raise the difficulty of the Mid-Game, which has almost always been the "easiest" part of Crawl: you have a huge bunch of options, but the opposition generally isn't challenging enough to kill you unless you get really sloppy. Trying to push you to your limits and forcing you to take on areas with the tension that you're not "fully prepared" has always been a tenet of Crawl though. That's why unlike Nethack, Crawl doesn't have "ascension kits." Don't have 3 full pips of Fire Resistance, rElec, resist Mutation and an Executioner Axe of Speed and you already cleared out all areas of the dungeon? Too bad, you're going to take on Zot anyway.
 

Renegen

Arcane
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
4,062
So tell me bros as someone who plays this game very little... why the fuck are new patches removing classes from the game?
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
Which ones? Priest?

No one used non-Orc priests. Zin was a shit starting God (he was okay for post-game, which is why you switch to him then.)

As for Orc Priests, they wanted different builds for characters worshipping Beogh, but Priest was the only real way of accessing him (no one is going to dive into Mines for that). Now, the first time you run across an enemy Orc Priest while playing an Orc, you get an option to convert.

(That being said, Beogh doesn't really support alternative playstyles anyway, he likes characters who wear heavy Armor and hit things with big weapons)

Reaver was a bad fighter/mage concept that doesn't work because it's extremely bad at both and will most likely die.

Jester was in one version but it was an April Fool joke.

What other removed classes are you thinking of? Or did you confuse "race" with "class"?
 

DefJam101

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
8,047
Location
Cybernegro HQ
Rune lock is an odd idea but I see the intent. Midgame could use a real shakeup; less grinding branches/main dungeon and more danger would be great.
 

fastjack

Augur
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
347
Location
the south bay
Which ones? Priest?

No one used non-Orc priests. Zin was a shit starting God (he was okay for post-game, which is why you switch to him then.)

As for Orc Priests, they wanted different builds for characters worshipping Beogh, but Priest was the only real way of accessing him (no one is going to dive into Mines for that). Now, the first time you run across an enemy Orc Priest while playing an Orc, you get an option to convert.

(That being said, Beogh doesn't really support alternative playstyles anyway, he likes characters who wear heavy Armor and hit things with big weapons)

Reaver was a bad fighter/mage concept that doesn't work because it's extremely bad at both and will most likely die.

Jester was in one version but it was an April Fool joke.

What other removed classes are you thinking of? Or did you confuse "race" with "class"?

Any insight into why mountain dwarves were removed?
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
Any insight into why mountain dwarves were removed?
Fluff-wise, the devs want to differentiate DC:SS from "standard Tolkien fantasy worlds", so Mountain Dwarves were cut in favor of Deep Dwarves as the Dwarf representative for Crawl.

Gameplay wise, it's a different reason (DD have the huge factor of being unable to regenerate normally which makes playing them MUCH different from playing MD, even though they are both Heavy Armor, big Axe-using kind of races.)

Here's a secret: MD actually suck (power-level wise).

Yes, I know there's that joke "chart" on how to win Crawl by picking MD and then wielding Axes and then pressing Tab at everything but the true "power behind the throne" was actually how broken Heavy Armour was in old versions due to damage reduction rounding issues. Once that's fixed and HA was "rebalanced", as it turns out Mountain Dwarves were terrible, especially compared to their closest competitors Minotaurs (and MD have one of the highest EXP requirements per level required for no good reason.)

The thing about melee characters in Crawl is that, as it is, there really isn't very many niches for races that are "Extremely Melee-centric, Heavy Armor, not great at Magic." One of the big reasons is being that "old-skool RPG devs" are extremely afraid of giving fighters/melee tactical abilities, because "choosing a weapon ability out of a menu" would turn them into "fighting-flavoured magic users" and the game would become WoW or whatever silly excuse they always come up with.

So out of all the humanoid races (and thus, very little gimmicks), you got MDs, Orcs and Minotaurs. Orcs have a god specifically made for them, and one of the few races that can play very specific kinds of "Heavy Armor Hybrids" (usually Fire or Earth Elementalists), so they're staying.

So you got MDs and Minotaurs left. Both of them are hopeless at magic (rivaled by Trolls, who are also a melee-centric race but "Monstrous" meaning relying on their own body/mutation strength rather than equipment) and good in all forms of weapons and armor, but Minotaur's horns gives them an extremely helpful early game edge that really helps buffer against the RNG nature of a Melee user's early game.

On a pure gameplay level, keeping MD around would basically mean "Here's a race that is almost 99% inferior to another, except in the rare chance that a super powerful artifact helmet is generated in the game, which MDs can wear and Minotaurs can't... if they manage to live that long."

Of course, at some level, the devs probably inherently knew they were going to get some shit that people were going to complain that "now there isn't a simple newbie beginner race any more for people learning the game" despite the whole 'actually MDs weren't that powerful' part, so they went ahead and buffed both of those races. Which actually sent Minotaurs over the roof into hilarity: they're one of the races with the most win rate right now, if not the highest. Well, until Gargoyles came along.

tl;dr: Just play a Minotaur and pretend you're a short beardy midget, there's no real gameplay difference.
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
Yeah I meant races, sludge elves sound fun.
Basically, the reasoning was that SE was a weird, one dimensional race that was originally created solely to provide a racial user for the Transmuter class (which is a class that I don't think has ever appeared in any other fantasy works, at least how Crawl portrays it). A Transmuter requires this really weird mixed of Unarmed Combat, Transmutation and a couple of elements such as Poison and Earth (for those animal form spells) which is a mix that... really, no other race provides.

Gargoyles were supposed to provide that and have other viable playstyles such as the possibility being a melee Heavy Armor combatant or Hybrids.

Personally I think Sludge Elves were at least more interesting than High Elves and I would have kept them as the elf representative instead but I guess I can't argue much with it from a "gameplay redundancy" viewpoint.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom