DX:HR - Worth a replay?

[Ulminati]

I tried going for a no-aug smooth operator/ghost run but kinda lost interest halfway through. Definately doesn't hold up well to a second playthrough

 

[sgc_meltdown]

I have to commend the designers on making the game in such a way that encourages full exploration of every single one of its playstyles and possible routes in one run

use silent running, are you nuts I want to have that bar ready for surprise cyberhug the moment I see belltower ass

 

[toro]

I enjoyed the self-imposed challenge of getting all those ghost/smooth operator bonuses without the use of the silent movement or invisibility augs. Other than that, not particularly difficult, but "no challenge whatsoever" is hyperbole. Stealth games are about observing patiently from a safe distance, coming up with a plan of action, then executing that plan perfectly. If you don't find that rewarding, then don't play stealth games.

Maybe I simply don't like shitty stealth games like DX:HR?

The game is designed to be finished without most of the augs, if not all of them. Therefore it is nothing special if you do it without any specific augs. It's a fake achievement, even if you enjoyed.
Predefined enemies paths, cover abundance and exploitable sticky cover. Independent of the skills configuration, once you realize the pattern, you can ghost the entire game.
So no, it's not a hyperbole. Compare this to the first Thief(s), SS2 or DX and it is impossible not to spot the difference in difficulty and environmental design.
In SS2 you had to get better if you wanted to survive. In DX:HR the skills are more like a new hair cut, you can do it with it or not. It doesn't matter.

What is a real achievement: ghosting a level designed for stealth approach OR ghosting a level designed on other considerations (like housing, socializing, production, etc) ?
I also ghosted the entire game, but not without a lot of discomfort once I realized that the stealth path is the main path of the game and everything was rigged to make it so.
It's not an achievement to walk the path designed for you. But hey, if it works for Witcher2, then it definitely works for DX:HR. Fucking

Way off-topic:

Behold ... the future of stealth games :D

 

[Forest Dweller]

The fuck is that shit.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Dude, toro...don't be fucking stupid. DX:HR is easily as far as what precedes it and everybody is in agreement on that. It's a damn good game. It doesn't have the freedom of the first game, no. But it's an improvement on not only where the series went but where we thought it was going. It's a good game. Yes, it gets repetitive especially in the path-finding or false path-choices but dammit it is so almost there (where? where the original was) it's worth calling damn good. For a franchise once held dear, went astray and came back with a saving play I'd put DX:HR up there with FO:NV. Still a bit fucked but dammit, there's some good stuff in there.

 

[joeydohn]

Behold ... the future of stealth games :D

The future of stealth games are QTE fests?

 

[toro]

Dude, toro...don't be fucking stupid. DX:HR is easily as far as what precedes it and everybody is in agreement on that. It's a damn good game. It doesn't have the freedom of the first game, no. But it's an improvement on not only where the series went but where we thought it was going. It's a good game. Yes, it gets repetitive especially in the path-finding or false path-choices but dammit it is so almost there (where? where the original was) it's worth calling damn good. For a franchise once held dear, went astray and came back with a saving play I'd put DX:HR up there with FO:NV. Still a bit fucked but dammit, there's some good stuff in there.

Exactly. It's almost there. Would you like to have sex and finish almost there? :D

 

[toro]

Behold ... the future of stealth games :D

The future of stealth games are QTE fests?

I don't know. But think about whoever designed this shit. They invested 5+ years in it.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Exactly. It's almost there. Would you like to have sex and finish almost there? :D

IT'S BETTER THAN NO SEX!!

(No, seriously it is. I've done far too many drugs in my youth to say I've always ejaculated during sex.)

 

[Forest Dweller]

Exactly. It's almost there. Would you like to have sex and finish almost there? :D

Yes. Lets her know you're not a slave to your own base desires and that you're in complete control. She's only being pleasured by your sufferance and you can cut if it off whenever you want, she can't control you that way, so she better watch the fuck out and work hard to keep you. You're the man in charge and don't let her ever forget that. Also slap that bitch around some.

 

[Roguey]

Predefined enemies paths,

This is true for all (good) stealth games. Randomized paths aren't fun, leads to failure through no fault of your own and thus constant reloading.

cover abundance and exploitable sticky cover.

As opposed to shadow abundance? I'm not sure what you mean by exploitable. If you're referring to how it opens up your field of view, that's there by design, it's not an exploit. Otherwise you're playing half-blind because there's no other way to lean.

Independent of the skills configuration, once you realize the pattern, you can ghost the entire game.

Like all stealth games. That's how they work.

So no, it's not a hyperbole. Compare this to the first Thief(s), SS2 or DX and it is impossible not to spot the difference in difficulty and environmental design.

I don't see much of one. Thief had a ton of shadows, an in-game reason for being able to hide so well in shadows, and difficulty settings that increased the requirements for mission success (such a thing was out of HR's already-large scope). DX also had a ton of boxes everywhere, shadows you could hide in without any in-game explanation for why you could turn invisible while in them, and no in-game incentives to ghost other than personal achievement.

 

[DraQ]

Maybe I simply don't like shitty stealth games like DX:HR?

Or DX1.

So no, it's not a hyperbole. Compare this to the first Thief(s), SS2 or DX and it is impossible not to spot the difference in difficulty and environmental design.
In SS2 you had to get better if you wanted to survive. In DX:HR the skills are more like a new hair cut, you can do it with it or not. It doesn't matter.

SS2 is not a stealth game. It's a survival horror and it's design diametrically opposes DX (1 or HR) in that you don't get multiple paths towards your objective. The only stealthy parts in SS2 is blowing the cameras before they confirm that you are you. Environmentally and artistically SS2 is actually very close to DX:HR.

Thief OTOH is full blown stealth game, not multi-approach FPS/RPG hybrid.

Stealth in DX1 was even easier, with longer enemy reaction times, enemies not investigating when alerted (no matter how dumb they are in this mode in HR it's still an incline over just looking in your direction and running the timer that will switch them to combat mode if it runs out and you're still visible), cameras ignoring corpses, security systems ignoring camera malfunctions, abundance of deep shadows, unconsciousness being functionally death, and so on.

Yeah, the AI could use much improvement, for example investigating better, getting alarmed when other patrols vanish (so you'd have to act quick when taking them down and not just wait for your awesome bar to recharge), better hearing and some randomness in its behaviour (this would also add *some* usefulness "to predict guard behaviour" aug) and, last but not least, ability to notice the fucking vents.

Yeah, the AI could stay alarmed indefinitely.

Yeah, the patrol routes could be set up better in that they omit some very comfortable hiding spots, often by stopping a step short - it's clearly done on purpose to make game beatable for gaypad wielding retards .

Yeah, the cover system could use removal, FPP-ization, or at least some tuning to make it non-abusable (spectacular but useless camera angle) but it's still harder to ghost DX:HR than DX1.


And when the shit does hit the fan, the shootouts are much harder, with more damage inflicted on you enemies generally acting smarter and gunplay being both more difficult and more fun.

DX1 has a definite edge in terms of more open levels (and that's a huge plus when talking about "chose your approach" game) and plot not falling apart near the end, making it an overall better of the two, but most of the individual mechanics are better in HR.
Art direction beats DX1's as well.

Also:

Way off-topic:

Behold ... the future of stealth games :D

What the shit is that fuck?
o_O

Good riddance, though I would have expected most codices to receive such game warmly - this sort of awkward, disjointed, menu-driven mess is probably closest to TB stealth game they will ever get.

shadows you could hide in without any in-game explanation for why you could turn invisible while in them

Well, you wouldn't be able to see an NPC in deep shadow either, so that was at least consistent with in-engine presentation.

Still, lack of pitch-black shadows does make things harder in DX:HR.

and no in-game incentives to ghost other than personal achievement.

That, or rather lack of metagame incentives (extra praxis points) was actually a plus. Ghosting or not should be chosen basing on how it affects the gameplay, not on whatever gives most pluses.

 

[Helly]

I never thought they'd make a whole game based upon the awesome button. Friggin' A !

 

[toro]

Predefined enemies paths,

This is true for all (good) stealth games. Randomized paths aren't fun, leads to failure through no fault of your own and thus constant reloading.

Randomized paths are forcing the player to be pro-active instead of enjoying the safety of his hiding place. That is challenging.

cover abundance and exploitable sticky cover.

As opposed to shadow abundance? I'm not sure what you mean by exploitable. If you're referring to how it opens up your field of view, that's there by design, it's not an exploit. Otherwise you're playing half-blind because there's no other way to lean.

Many times, in the exact same position, the NPCs see you without sticky cover, but they don't see you if the sticky cover is active. Also the sticky cover made the NPCs not to see you even when it made perfect sense to see you based on the angles and the positions.
In other words, the NPCs FOV is overwritten by the player sticky cover status. And that's what I call exploitable, because most players will abuse it. But in reality, is more like a simple cheat. The world rules are biased towards the player.
In Thief, the NPCs could see you and hear you. But these actions were totally INDEPENDENT of the player status. The world rules are the same for the player and the NPCs.
Please don't tell me that there is no difference.

Independent of the skills configuration, once you realize the pattern, you can ghost the entire game.

Like all stealth games. That's how they work.

Fair enough. But what might seem fun for you, might be just tedious for another player especially when additional incentives are missing.

So no, it's not a hyperbole. Compare this to the first Thief(s), SS2 or DX and it is impossible not to spot the difference in difficulty and environmental design.

I don't see much of one. Thief had a ton of shadows, an in-game reason for being able to hide so well in shadows, and difficulty settings that increased the requirements for mission success (such a thing was out of HR's already-large scope). DX also had a ton of boxes everywhere, shadows you could hide in without any in-game explanation for why you could turn invisible while in them, and no in-game incentives to ghost other than personal achievement.

DX:HR is a good game compared to what is released these days, but it still is a lousy game compared with the former ones. The fact that you say "I don't see much of one" is just trolling or ignorance.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

DX:HR is a good game compared to what is released these days, but it still is a lousy game compared with the former ones.

Bullshit.

It's not a "lousy" game no matter how you look at it unless you're trolling or just ignorant (see what I did there?). It's arguably nearly as good as the first with some poor design choices which make it a little derpy (as if the first one wasn't) and is fucking tits beyond the second game. Stop being a douche.

 

[toro]

... wall of text ...

I read your post, but the thing is: DX was NOT designed as a stealth game primarily, where DX:HR seems to be (the bonuses for smooth/ghost, sticky cover, silent takedowns and level design).
That's the beauty of DX, stealth is just another way and not the *intended* way.

Ofc, there is the argument that DX:HR can be played without sticky cover and all the gadgets, but is like pretending you play a game more challenging that it really is. I don't know. This is larpers territory.

 

[toro]

DX:HR is a good game compared to what is released these days, but it still is a lousy game compared with the former ones.

Bullshit.

It's not a "lousy" game no matter how you look at it unless you're trolling or just ignorant (see what I did there?). It's arguably nearly as good as the first with some poor design choices which make it a little derpy (as if the first one wasn't) and is fucking tits beyond the second game. Stop being a douche.

"Nearly as good". "Almost there". Why the fuck don't you spell it right? Is not as good as DX1. Period.

If you at least acknowledge this, we can have a discussion, otherwise everything said is moot.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

I have acknowledge that, you tard. Those phrases don't need to be any clearer. Your cumdrenched hyperbole is what I'm addressing. Stop being so proud of your attempted edginess. DX:HR is a good game and better than the second game in the series. Good enough even, to hope for better next time (if indeed these are not Bethesdian-styled developers unwilling to learn from their mistakes).

 

[circ]

I, unlike you haven't played IW, if that was the second game, however I have played DX1 and HR, and HR bored me before the first boss.

HR's combat consisted of sitting behind cover and shooting mobiles or containers. Or you could go the stealthy route and sit behind cover and shoot mobiles or sneak behind them and use stupid takedowns. It was uninspiringly realized, and maybe if I hadn't already seen the same system in dozens of games already, such as Mass Effect and Alpha Protocol (which despite its faults and not particularly stealthy stealth, did stealth interestingly), I might have been impressed. Hacking was a bore. Absolutely nothing in the skilltrees encouraged me to get xp.

And then there's the ending I saw. Wow.

Let's be fair. It has nothing to do with DX1, except dropping a few names like the dopefish. It's a modern popamole shooter (a bad one at that), with stealth (really, really bad and boring stealth).

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Let's be fair.

Ok, you first. You can start by not saying hyperbolic shit like this: "It's a modern popamole shooter (a bad one at that)" and then maybe I'll take you seriously.

 

[DraQ]

I read your post, but the thing is: DX was NOT designed as a stealth game primarily, where DX:HR seems to be (the bonuses for smooth/ghost, sticky cover, silent takedowns and level design).
That's the beauty of DX, stealth is just another way and not the *intended* way.

Have you tried playing DX:HR any other way?

Because I'm currently playing as a tough guy ramboid hacker - genius bruiser of sorts - trying to sneak to security hub, disabling cameras, siccing bots and turrets on the enemy and joining the ensuing chaos with revsploder, laser-sighted sniper rifle (to make it viable for mid-range work and snapshooting - alas I have to use sticky cover for proper sniping, because otherwise the scope is bugged with laser sight attached) or bursting poor twats with heavily modded gatling and it's fun (although I do ghost opportunistically, and try to nonlethal NPCs that I need to take down, but don't really hate).

It also made Fedorova battle and crash site piss easy, because, you know, gatling and LS huge-ass rifle (modded for extra damage).

Other than the retarded XP bonuses there is no indication that HR has been made with any particular playstyle in mind, it supports any of them.

Ofc, there is the argument that DX:HR can be played without sticky cover and all the gadgets, but is like pretending you play a game more challenging that it really is. I don't know. This is larpers territory.

Self imposed challenges are ok as long as you don't play pretend roleplay that Jensen has a phobia against touching crates and walls with his body.

 

[circ]

Let's be fair.

Ok, you first. You can start by not saying hyperbolic shit like this: "It's a modern popamole shooter (a bad one at that)" and then maybe I'll take you seriously.

Surprised you didn't just start crying about adding a dumbfuck tag first. Anyway, not sure you understand the exact definition of hyperbole, or any definition. Unless by hyperbole you mean 'diverging viewpoint'. Are you saying it ISN'T a popamole shooter? If the Oxford dictionary were to include the word 'popamole shooter', I'd say hands down, DXHR deserves that honor more so than something like Mass Effect, as I could have sworn mobiles popped their heads from behind cover at intervals, like moles, ready for the popping. Unless of course the only experience of DXHR you have, is playing it stealth.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Surprised you didn't just start crying about adding a dumbfuck tag first.

Why, would you like me to insult your intelligence in order to really get this dialogue moving? I don't see the point. Besides, why would I care if anybody gave you that distinction?

Anyway, not sure you understand the exact definition of hyperbole, or any definition.

Oh, well I appreciate your uncertainty. But I do, thanks.

Unless by hyperbole you mean 'diverging viewpoint'. Are you saying it ISN'T a popamole shooter? If the Oxford dictionary were to include the word 'popamole shooter', I'd say hands down, DXHR deserves that honor more so than something like Mass Effect, as I could have sworn mobiles popped their heads from behind cover at intervals, like moles, ready for the popping. Unless of course the only experience of DXHR you have, is playing it stealth.

Yes, I am saying it isn't a popamole shooter and yes I played the stealth game like it was a stealth game. Calling a good game bad and reducing the entire experience to being "popamole" is hyperbole, yes. Didn't you just admit to not having even played the entire thing? I admit myself to not playing any other way than stealth and going for ghost each level so I can't say how the game responds or reacts otherwise. But from my own experience, here are pieces of debate which I consider unarguable:

1) It is a good, well-designed game.
2) It is incline from Invisible War.
3) In terms of atmosphere (not talking piss or colors here) it's close to the original. It felt like "Deus Ex" to me.
4) It's not as free and open as DE1 and sometimes you feel railroaded into a path but it's still far from typical linear ME-styled "popamole".
5) The dialogue system is nifty and creative.
6) The metro areas look fantastic.
7) Forcing you to pay attention to emails, notes and detail is incline (there was a pretty lulzy moment in the main DX:HR thread when a member freely admitted they hadn't and made a choice that eventually angered them).
8) Fuck you.

 

[circ]

Oh my fucking god. You played it in just stealthmode and then you have the gall to talk shit when people play it any other way? This is comedy gold.

Also, apologies for not playing it through 7 times before assessment.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

What?

I'm not talking shit. I'm telling you that reducing it to a "bad" game is ridiculous. Also: you just said "gall". Really, dude? And yeah, I think there's a larger difference between playing through once and not at all than there is once and seven times.